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[Vanguard] Combat and Navy BC Rebalance

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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#561 - 2015-09-27 18:02:29 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
...read the post properly, i mentioned HAM's NOT cruise missiles, and you have clearly not looked at brutix/myrm shield fits compared too what the ferox shield tank will be.


You and your nerfs all the time. I say increase torpedo range to 50km and nerf bombers accordingly. And for christ sake give them full application.


50km torps is just madness, range on a jav raven would be crazy, nerfs are just necessary sometimes for balance (looks at T3's), better than powercreep which is what the navy drake kind of feels like

HAM's having 16km range with rage is just OP, 30km with javelin is also OP and better than scorch .. range being the supposed strong point of lasers, but conflag doing 10km is just lame compared, then you only need too look at auto's and blasters too see how strong that range actually is on HAM's.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
WrATH2Zero
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#562 - 2015-09-27 18:23:17 UTC  |  Edited by: WrATH2Zero
Really glad about this. battle cruisers are so crap now, I recently tried a Cyclone, T2 fit in a Cosmos mission and it struggle, took a Caracal T2 fit in with HMs, found it better and the Cerberus just layed waste. OK, T1 battlecruisers are only 60 million but preferring a L5 skilled cruiser shouldn't be the case.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#563 - 2015-09-27 18:25:28 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
...read the post properly, i mentioned HAM's NOT cruise missiles, and you have clearly not looked at brutix/myrm shield fits compared too what the ferox shield tank will be.


You and your nerfs all the time. I say increase torpedo range to 50km and nerf bombers accordingly. And for christ sake give them full application.


50km torps is just madness, range on a jav raven would be crazy, nerfs are just necessary sometimes for balance (looks at T3's), better than powercreep which is what the navy drake kind of feels like

HAM's having 16km range with rage is just OP, 30km with javelin is also OP and better than scorch .. range being the supposed strong point of lasers, but conflag doing 10km is just lame compared, then you only need too look at auto's and blasters too see how strong that range actually is on HAM's.


You do know that missile range is very relative right? And even javelin missiles have trouble shooting smaller stuff. The explosion velocity on hams is just terrible.

I tell you what, you make a video where you show me without doubt and reproducible where heavy assault missiles will have 30km range and I give you one million isk.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#564 - 2015-09-27 18:26:57 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Devil Seven wrote:
Can you look at giving the ferox a 5th low slot it will give it more fitting options and make it more useful in the proposed update otherwise the rest of them look good just not sure how I like the ferox atm looks like a huge nerf to the thing 7/6/5 is a good number too


the problem the ferox has and has always had is that it has too compete with the drake for usage, and ofc caldari being mainly missile based that has always been against it, only recent buffs too rails has made it useful, these changes still don't really bring it out of the drakes shadow especially with the drake having nearly the same range as a raven now,

some things too help ferox too be more useful

- lower sig and more mobility
- 5th lowslot for a high for greater options
- nerf HAM range too 10km instead of its 20km range it shares with torps
- drake could lose its resist bonus too for some tracking
- myrmidon in a shield dps config also outdoes a ferox for dps and only slightly lower than a shield dps brutix.



Where do you get your numbers from? The Drake has 83km maximum heavy missile range with tech1 and faction missiles. That range is only true IF the Drake is not moving and the thing the Drake is shooting at is also not moving.

The Raven gets 266km range with regular and faction missiles.

The Ferox has 100/114km range with 200mm railguns and Spike M or 11/26km with Null M and neutron blasters.

And all Gallente ships should automatically explode on undock when they have shield mods on except for the Talos.


read the post properly, i mentioned HAM's NOT cruise missiles, and you have clearly not looked at brutix/myrm shield fits compared too what the ferox shield tank will be.


The Ferox Optimal Bonus is huge. Hams and torps are not function on a similar level due to torps having the larger exp radius than cruises.. they just don't balance. ELitatwo has it right. As a close in weapon, it takes a bomber with all that extra damage to make it effective.. go figure right? so cut ham range which is only effective on a couple ships that push out range and shrink the explosion radius.. cause they are too long of range and people cant get in close and kite tank on like the 3-4 ships that can effectively use them? Hams are fine.. other ships aren't meant to be close in missile brawlers, and it sounds like your fighting a couple people that are fitting hams right. However, I'll have to check the new fits to see if I can use them better on the drakes.. that seems to have you worried. That navy drake with that speed and hams (IF it can fit um all now). it may be an incredibly nice ham brawler BC. It didnt work prior.. not enough CPU I believe.
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#565 - 2015-09-27 18:30:08 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
...read the post properly, i mentioned HAM's NOT cruise missiles, and you have clearly not looked at brutix/myrm shield fits compared too what the ferox shield tank will be.


You and your nerfs all the time. I say increase torpedo range to 50km and nerf bombers accordingly. And for christ sake give them full application.


50km torps is just madness, range on a jav raven would be crazy, nerfs are just necessary sometimes for balance (looks at T3's), better than powercreep which is what the navy drake kind of feels like

HAM's having 16km range with rage is just OP, 30km with javelin is also OP and better than scorch .. range being the supposed strong point of lasers, but conflag doing 10km is just lame compared, then you only need too look at auto's and blasters too see how strong that range actually is on HAM's.


You do know that missile range is very relative right? And even javelin missiles have trouble shooting smaller stuff. The explosion velocity on hams is just terrible.

I tell you what, you make a video where you show me without doubt and reproducible where heavy assault missiles will have 30km range and I give you one million isk.


I think it's 27Km on a sacralige.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#566 - 2015-09-27 18:31:57 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
...read the post properly, i mentioned HAM's NOT cruise missiles, and you have clearly not looked at brutix/myrm shield fits compared too what the ferox shield tank will be.


You and your nerfs all the time. I say increase torpedo range to 50km and nerf bombers accordingly. And for christ sake give them full application.


50km torps is just madness, range on a jav raven would be crazy, nerfs are just necessary sometimes for balance (looks at T3's), better than powercreep which is what the navy drake kind of feels like

HAM's having 16km range with rage is just OP, 30km with javelin is also OP and better than scorch .. range being the supposed strong point of lasers, but conflag doing 10km is just lame compared, then you only need too look at auto's and blasters too see how strong that range actually is on HAM's.


You do know that missile range is very relative right? And even javelin missiles have trouble shooting smaller stuff. The explosion velocity on hams is just terrible.

I tell you what, you make a video where you show me without doubt and reproducible where heavy assault missiles will have 30km range and I give you one million isk.


a drake with lv5 skills can get 30km range with javs FACT..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#567 - 2015-09-27 18:42:50 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Devil Seven wrote:
Can you look at giving the ferox a 5th low slot it will give it more fitting options and make it more useful in the proposed update otherwise the rest of them look good just not sure how I like the ferox atm looks like a huge nerf to the thing 7/6/5 is a good number too


the problem the ferox has and has always had is that it has too compete with the drake for usage, and ofc caldari being mainly missile based that has always been against it, only recent buffs too rails has made it useful, these changes still don't really bring it out of the drakes shadow especially with the drake having nearly the same range as a raven now,

some things too help ferox too be more useful

- lower sig and more mobility
- 5th lowslot for a high for greater options
- nerf HAM range too 10km instead of its 20km range it shares with torps
- drake could lose its resist bonus too for some tracking
- myrmidon in a shield dps config also outdoes a ferox for dps and only slightly lower than a shield dps brutix.


Shocked ... LolLolLol
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#568 - 2015-09-27 21:39:22 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
..a drake with lv5 skills can get 30km range with javs FACT..


On your fitting screen. And only if your Drake is not moving and the thing it is shooting at isn't moving too. Then and only then you get ~29km range.

Missile range does not work like turrets. Turret range is always true.

The End.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#569 - 2015-09-27 21:47:03 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
..a drake with lv5 skills can get 30km range with javs FACT..


On your fitting screen. And only if your Drake is not moving and the thing it is shooting at isn't moving too. Then and only then you get ~29km range.

Missile range does not work like turrets. Turret range is always true.

The End.


well with the 25% buff drake defo will do 30km always

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Bayou
Doomheim
#570 - 2015-09-27 23:19:09 UTC
HAM's does crap dps without applying webs to your taget so saying 30km range is op is just dumb.
Vailen Sere
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#571 - 2015-09-27 23:53:43 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
...read the post properly, i mentioned HAM's NOT cruise missiles, and you have clearly not looked at brutix/myrm shield fits compared too what the ferox shield tank will be.


You and your nerfs all the time. I say increase torpedo range to 50km and nerf bombers accordingly. And for christ sake give them full application.


50km torps is just madness, range on a jav raven would be crazy, nerfs are just necessary sometimes for balance (looks at T3's), better than powercreep which is what the navy drake kind of feels like

HAM's having 16km range with rage is just OP, 30km with javelin is also OP and better than scorch .. range being the supposed strong point of lasers, but conflag doing 10km is just lame compared, then you only need too look at auto's and blasters too see how strong that range actually is on HAM's.

On which ships? I saw alot of boosts there to Optimal ranges.. are they currently balanced out or are you looking for a gunnery superiority over missiles (That do not crit?)

Your missing comparative was mentioned above. gunnery ranges are set, and the only way to outrun guns is to get out of range, whereas to avoid missiles, you simply move fast enough and either 1) they do not hit or 2) you mitigate 40% of the damage.

That's where the missile velocity increase comes into play.
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#572 - 2015-09-28 00:44:17 UTC
Switch the drone bandwidth of the Myrmidon and the Ishtar.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#573 - 2015-09-28 14:12:15 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
..a drake with lv5 skills can get 30km range with javs FACT..


On your fitting screen. And only if your Drake is not moving and the thing it is shooting at isn't moving too. Then and only then you get ~29km range.

Missile range does not work like turrets. Turret range is always true.

The End.


I've been orbiting a Domi's sentries with my Tengu at 1km, I ran under the guns of T3s and out of reach of harbingers, always hitting for 610dps with HAMs. Not only do missiles get awesome damage at range - they also got it regardless of your own movement.

It's a miracle I never roll into your hole tho.
Shade Alidiana
PROSPERO Corporation
#574 - 2015-09-28 15:25:15 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Shade Alidiana wrote:
Just a question. Why do you call it a major buff for navy hurri? Alpha is good but rof is like.. really useful. Why not 10% rof instead, if you can't keep both?

(5% rof and damage wouldn't look out of order in one line and/or as one bonus with some of the other ships out there..)


When you have an alpha doctrine, or like me, just want to fly around blapping with arty, the 10% dmg/tracking is well worth the sacrifice of RoF. 3-4k alpha with tracking similar to scorch, at least with drop booster. Fleet cane was compensated slightly with a bigger drone bay to make up for the "DPS" loss, but the raw damage is actually a buff.

I'm good with an overall dps loss, minny need an arty ship that actually works, but isn't god awfully OP like the svipul.


Aren't similar features already included in Sleipnir? Which isn't much more expensive but is tankier as well. I want some difference in my ships :)
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#575 - 2015-09-28 15:35:39 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
...read the post properly, i mentioned HAM's NOT cruise missiles, and you have clearly not looked at brutix/myrm shield fits compared too what the ferox shield tank will be.


You and your nerfs all the time. I say increase torpedo range to 50km and nerf bombers accordingly. And for christ sake give them full application.


50km torps is just madness, range on a jav raven would be crazy, nerfs are just necessary sometimes for balance (looks at T3's), better than powercreep which is what the navy drake kind of feels like

HAM's having 16km range with rage is just OP, 30km with javelin is also OP and better than scorch .. range being the supposed strong point of lasers, but conflag doing 10km is just lame compared, then you only need too look at auto's and blasters too see how strong that range actually is on HAM's.


You do know that missile range is very relative right? And even javelin missiles have trouble shooting smaller stuff. The explosion velocity on hams is just terrible.

I tell you what, you make a video where you show me without doubt and reproducible where heavy assault missiles will have 30km range and I give you one million isk.



sac has 45km range with HAM jav's
Denson022
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#576 - 2015-09-28 15:36:43 UTC
In general i like the way these changes have been done.

The Ferox got the biggest buff IMHO. The new 6 mid slot layout gives more flexibility.

In the other hand the Cyclone did not received any game breaking changes.
Still no 6th mid slot => If you go XLASB + Invul you do not have the cap booster to feed the neuts/MWD, but you have the Web.

If you go old school active tank + cap booster you cant fit a (mandatory) Web in order to get decent HAM damage application.
The new missile enhancer doesn't help much.

It's DPS is low due to having only 5 bonused hardpoints. As stated earlier, drones represent 20-25 % of total DPS.

Compared to the Cyclone the Ferox has gained much more appeal.
It lost it's resist bonus but has the DPS the Cyclone is lacking and with a dual web setup will murder frigs , dessies and cruisers given the damage projection bonus.

CCP , you had the opportunituy to bring back the CBC king of speed crown back to the cyclone.
I hoped it could at least fulfill the role of a tackle / cruiser hunter... Get in range, scram, web, neut to death.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#577 - 2015-09-28 16:12:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Shade Alidiana wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Shade Alidiana wrote:
Just a question. Why do you call it a major buff for navy hurri? Alpha is good but rof is like.. really useful. Why not 10% rof instead, if you can't keep both?

(5% rof and damage wouldn't look out of order in one line and/or as one bonus with some of the other ships out there..)


When you have an alpha doctrine, or like me, just want to fly around blapping with arty, the 10% dmg/tracking is well worth the sacrifice of RoF. 3-4k alpha with tracking similar to scorch, at least with drop booster. Fleet cane was compensated slightly with a bigger drone bay to make up for the "DPS" loss, but the raw damage is actually a buff.

I'm good with an overall dps loss, minny need an arty ship that actually works, but isn't god awfully OP like the svipul.


Aren't similar features already included in Sleipnir? Which isn't much more expensive but is tankier as well. I want some difference in my ships :)


Not really. Sleip is 300m and has loads of training time behind it to sit in one. Not to mention needing CS5 to get the max alpha. Sleip also doesnt have the 50% tracking bonus which is extremely useful. For reference, on the fleet cane, with a metastasis rig, TE and sabot/quake you are approaching scorch tracking but with 3k vollies. Add a drop booster and you're there. Fleet cane is also faster/agile than sleip now, making it a better kiter.

Sleip is a better brawler and is good with arty, but nowhere as easy to sit in, and squeezing arty, XLASB, neuts and prop can be challenging. HFI will be a fun easy to fly, relatively cheap arty ship.

The tracking bonus alone is enough of a difference for me (highest tracking BC to boot). Plus the hybrid optimal/falloff bonus which will make sabot/depleted uranium very nice to use. Unlike the sleip which is strictly falloff bonused.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#578 - 2015-09-28 21:08:36 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
I've been orbiting a Domi's sentries with my Tengu at 1km, I ran under the guns of T3s and out of reach of harbingers, always hitting for 610dps with HAMs. Not only do missiles get awesome damage at range - they also got it regardless of your own movement.

It's a miracle I never roll into your hole tho.


That is what you want to do with hams. But in order to do that you need to pin your target first, which you want to do too. Now imagine that you are chasing a svipul with your ham Drake or Tengu. Your ham range will be 50% of the maximum at best.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#579 - 2015-09-29 05:43:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Iyacia Cyric'ai
elitatwo wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
I've been orbiting a Domi's sentries with my Tengu at 1km, I ran under the guns of T3s and out of reach of harbingers, always hitting for 610dps with HAMs. Not only do missiles get awesome damage at range - they also got it regardless of your own movement.

It's a miracle I never roll into your hole tho.


That is what you want to do with hams. But in order to do that you need to pin your target first, which you want to do too. Now imagine that you are chasing a svipul with your ham Drake or Tengu. Your ham range will be 50% of the maximum at best.
I don't see a problem with this. Use rapid light missiles if you want to damage Svipuls without tackling them.
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#580 - 2015-09-29 05:57:44 UTC
Denson022 wrote:
In general i like the way these changes have been done.

The Ferox got the biggest buff IMHO. The new 6 mid slot layout gives more flexibility.

In the other hand the Cyclone did not received any game breaking changes.
Still no 6th mid slot => If you go XLASB + Invul you do not have the cap booster to feed the neuts/MWD, but you have the Web.

If you go old school active tank + cap booster you cant fit a (mandatory) Web in order to get decent HAM damage application.
The new missile enhancer doesn't help much.

It's DPS is low due to having only 5 bonused hardpoints. As stated earlier, drones represent 20-25 % of total DPS.

Compared to the Cyclone the Ferox has gained much more appeal.
It lost it's resist bonus but has the DPS the Cyclone is lacking and with a dual web setup will murder frigs , dessies and cruisers given the damage projection bonus.

CCP , you had the opportunituy to bring back the CBC king of speed crown back to the cyclone.
I hoped it could at least fulfill the role of a tackle / cruiser hunter... Get in range, scram, web, neut to death.
Cyclones hunt cruisers and dessies (t1 and t2) fine. Web is more about applying damage to t3ds and frigates.