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[Vanguard] Combat and Navy BC Rebalance

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Gramps Pljugi
Slugcat Hive Intelligence
#541 - 2015-09-25 19:25:40 UTC
So while everyone is praising the buffs to all the other ships Myrm and Prophecy will be left collecting dust for probably years to come, since their buff as i stated is not as good as the other ships...

Thanks balance team, i have no idea what stats you used to pull out this bonus from, must be from all of those Rail myrmidons on the killboards that snipe from 60km, also the heavy missile/beam laser prophecys that also snipe from very far so they need drones to reach to target 50/60km away faster to apply the dps..

Pointless, just plain pointless......
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#542 - 2015-09-25 20:14:03 UTC
Gramps Pljugi wrote:
So while everyone is praising the buffs to all the other ships Myrm and Prophecy will be left collecting dust for probably years to come, since their buff as i stated is not as good as the other ships...

Thanks balance team, i have no idea what stats you used to pull out this bonus from, must be from all of those Rail myrmidons on the killboards that snipe from 60km, also the heavy missile/beam laser prophecys that also snipe from very far so they need drones to reach to target 50/60km away faster to apply the dps..

Pointless, just plain pointless......


What are you talking about? Myrm/proph were the most common/powerful BCs being used. Why overbuff them when they were already good? They even mentioned this in the OP. The ships that see the most usage get the smallest buffs, the ships with less usage get bigger buffs. Not a hard concept.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Ms GoodyMaker
DELAINEN SYNDICATE
#543 - 2015-09-26 12:08:16 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Khador Vess wrote:
return of the drakefleet... awesome

Forget Drakefleet. Welcome FeroxFleet.

EDIT: Not only FeroxFleet...but symetrically-placed turret FeroxFleet! WAHOO!


I wouldn't think so, you missed the part about the shield buffs being swapped out for gun buffs. The Ferox w/o shield buffs will be a paper ship, I predict, most players will now pass on.
God's Apples
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#544 - 2015-09-26 14:53:36 UTC
Ms GoodyMaker wrote:
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Khador Vess wrote:
return of the drakefleet... awesome

Forget Drakefleet. Welcome FeroxFleet.

EDIT: Not only FeroxFleet...but symetrically-placed turret FeroxFleet! WAHOO!


I wouldn't think so, you missed the part about the shield buffs being swapped out for gun buffs. The Ferox w/o shield buffs will be a paper ship, I predict, most players will now pass on.


It gets an extra mid so you just fit an additional invul to make up for the lack of the resist bonus.

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#545 - 2015-09-26 15:23:05 UTC
Jezza McWaffle wrote:
I've looked at some of these changes now in Pyfa so I can get an idea of what is viable and what isn't. The tank on the Navy Drake (shield) and the Navy Brutix (hull) is insane, and I think the other ships need to be buffed slightly in base HP to compensate, when you can easily hit the 100K mark on the Navy Drake yet the Harb for instance lacks behind massively it feels at odd ends.

The Fleet Cane needs more PG and especially CPU in my opinion, I had trouble getting an arty fit to work that included any tank, and thats without putting anything in the 2 spare highs, and with an armour auto fit I had exactly the same problem.

The regular Harb feels like it could do with a slight PG buff (maybe by +60) to make beams viable, it can get a semi decent fit with Pulses but it doesn't feel like any difference before the buffs.

Edit: Just to add, I do think more PG and CPU buffs to all the ships would increase the viability and flexibility. Obviously some ships need more buffs than others.


I agree, the Harbinger still feels a little sad and despite the optimal and falloff and slight mobility increase it is still the same ship. I would have really liked if we could fit heavy beams on and something that can be considered an armor tank.

A tad more powergrid would go a long way.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#546 - 2015-09-26 16:27:01 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Jezza McWaffle wrote:
I've looked at some of these changes now in Pyfa so I can get an idea of what is viable and what isn't. The tank on the Navy Drake (shield) and the Navy Brutix (hull) is insane, and I think the other ships need to be buffed slightly in base HP to compensate, when you can easily hit the 100K mark on the Navy Drake yet the Harb for instance lacks behind massively it feels at odd ends.

The Fleet Cane needs more PG and especially CPU in my opinion, I had trouble getting an arty fit to work that included any tank, and thats without putting anything in the 2 spare highs, and with an armour auto fit I had exactly the same problem.

The regular Harb feels like it could do with a slight PG buff (maybe by +60) to make beams viable, it can get a semi decent fit with Pulses but it doesn't feel like any difference before the buffs.

Edit: Just to add, I do think more PG and CPU buffs to all the ships would increase the viability and flexibility. Obviously some ships need more buffs than others.


I agree, the Harbinger still feels a little sad and despite the optimal and falloff and slight mobility increase it is still the same ship. I would have really liked if we could fit heavy beams on and something that can be considered an armor tank.

A tad more powergrid would go a long way.


they don't really want you fitting the biggest guns and the biggest tank, except on broken ships where it's acceptable. I think downgrading to lower tier long range guns is really painful though, maybe they could be made less bad. can't be having a big drop in dps, range and alpha and still be useful.
Shade Alidiana
PROSPERO Corporation
#547 - 2015-09-26 20:11:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Shade Alidiana
Just a question. Why do you call it a major buff for navy hurri? Alpha is good but rof is like.. really useful. Why not 10% rof instead, if you can't keep both?

(5% rof and damage wouldn't look out of order in one line and/or as one bonus with some of the other ships out there..)
Mario Putzo
#548 - 2015-09-26 22:07:56 UTC
Yasuo Aldent wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Hull tanking is well-balanced at the moment. It really only works for the all-or-nothing brawler. If it catches you with web and scram, you are probably dead. If it doesn't, then it is dead.


No its not really comparable at all to shield or armor. To hull tank you have to pretty much give up your lows and rigs. EHP bonuses from hull boosting modules are not on the same level of Shield or Armor, especially considering the Resist boosting options available to these other tanks...sure DC is nice, but it also boost Shield and Armor independent of other resist mods so...

Adding on to the fact its already providing a reduced EHP from additional mods (while sacrificing Damage modules, or utility modules) hull repair is well below the threshold of Shield or Armor repair...and non existent in Remote Logistics Repair and it is clearly inferior to armor or shield tanking by a very very large margin in any sort of group play.


Make Gallente ships specialize in hull tanking. WIth their already good chunk of structure HP they would make great hull tanking candidates. Just swap all the armor bonuses to hull and maybe give a role bonus to all gal ships to decrease CPU usage of hull reppers and buffer mods (excluding DC). This would make gal ships differently fitting than all the three other races which would be better to be honest since gal armor tanking is currently pretty much a copy of amarr armor tanking, While Minmatar ships are fit nothing like any of the other races.

Aka. Gallente - Hull, Caldari - Shield, Amarr - Armor, Minmatar - kitchen sink/speed



That would be the route I would take if I were in charge of balance. But alas all I can do is offer ideas and watch CCP poach them without credit. I have a good track record of it too (I wouldn't look at my post history though its long and unattractive).
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#549 - 2015-09-26 23:16:58 UTC
Why does CCP think that sniper fleet doctrine is so good? Having buff BC stats they also added range and fall off, so that's ideal for long range engagements and make logi support even more effective sincr you can outrange dps coming into their end.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Bayou
Doomheim
#550 - 2015-09-27 02:09:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Bayou
Trinkets friend wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:
[

which was my original proposal. That + an extra launcher.


However, dropping a high and buffing the RoF bonus means the "Surprise Armour" fit is still viable. (and actually better)


Solo Cyclone
Now, the Cyclone is set up as a solo brawler ship, due to its bonus to shield boosting. Mostly this is interpreted by the user as "fit an XLASB" but that narrows your flying style down into very restricted space; you especially need to be able to use pills, links and so on. But even so, in the majority of cases the Cyclone sucks or doesn't do so well at this because missiles are really quite apalling for solo work and shield brawling, where you will lack hard tackle. (this is why I say the proposed Ferox is going to dominate it due to fitting a web).

It also doesn't help much when your sig radius starts out at stupendous levels and you blow this out even more.

So, the Cyclone is a niche ship designed around a fairly rare, narrow gameplay option for people. The missile velocity bonus adds range, so you might be able to flail ineffectually at kiters, but it's still going to die horribly to Gilas, VNI's and ishtars because you won't be able to run them down.


It's strange how my Cyclone doesn't need links or implants, has web + scram and 2 neuts, is faster than Gilas, VNI's, Ishtars and pretty much any other cruiser, gets multiple kills vs gangs. I really doubt you have ever used it, like most people here.

It is underestimated.

http://imgur.com/UlubSOC That's a proper fit Cyclone.
Devil Seven
GeoCorp.
The Initiative.
#551 - 2015-09-27 02:31:24 UTC
Can you look at giving the ferox a 5th low slot it will give it more fitting options and make it more useful in the proposed update otherwise the rest of them look good just not sure how I like the ferox atm looks like a huge nerf to the thing 7/6/5 is a good number too
Devil Seven
GeoCorp.
The Initiative.
#552 - 2015-09-27 02:35:14 UTC
Gramps Pljugi wrote:
So while everyone is praising the buffs to all the other ships Myrm and Prophecy will be left collecting dust for probably years to come, since their buff as i stated is not as good as the other ships...

Thanks balance team, i have no idea what stats you used to pull out this bonus from, must be from all of those Rail myrmidons on the killboards that snipe from 60km, also the heavy missile/beam laser prophecys that also snipe from very far so they need drones to reach to target 50/60km away faster to apply the dps..

Pointless, just plain pointless......

The prophecy and the Myrm are fine the way they are learn to fly them right
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#553 - 2015-09-27 03:00:00 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Yasuo Aldent wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Hull tanking is well-balanced at the moment. It really only works for the all-or-nothing brawler. If it catches you with web and scram, you are probably dead. If it doesn't, then it is dead.


No its not really comparable at all to shield or armor. To hull tank you have to pretty much give up your lows and rigs. EHP bonuses from hull boosting modules are not on the same level of Shield or Armor, especially considering the Resist boosting options available to these other tanks...sure DC is nice, but it also boost Shield and Armor independent of other resist mods so...

Adding on to the fact its already providing a reduced EHP from additional mods (while sacrificing Damage modules, or utility modules) hull repair is well below the threshold of Shield or Armor repair...and non existent in Remote Logistics Repair and it is clearly inferior to armor or shield tanking by a very very large margin in any sort of group play.


Make Gallente ships specialize in hull tanking. WIth their already good chunk of structure HP they would make great hull tanking candidates. Just swap all the armor bonuses to hull and maybe give a role bonus to all gal ships to decrease CPU usage of hull reppers and buffer mods (excluding DC). This would make gal ships differently fitting than all the three other races which would be better to be honest since gal armor tanking is currently pretty much a copy of amarr armor tanking, While Minmatar ships are fit nothing like any of the other races.

Aka. Gallente - Hull, Caldari - Shield, Amarr - Armor, Minmatar - kitchen sink/speed



... (I wouldn't look at my post history though its long and unattractive).


That's what she said!

On topic, I like hull tanking being a very niche thing that is good in one or two situations utilizing one or two specific ships. So I would not support switching one race over to being hull tankers.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#554 - 2015-09-27 04:52:38 UTC
Devil Seven wrote:
Can you look at giving the ferox a 5th low slot it will give it more fitting options and make it more useful in the proposed update otherwise the rest of them look good just not sure how I like the ferox atm looks like a huge nerf to the thing 7/6/5 is a good number too


You would have to remove one slot from somewhere else for that. With your layout the Ferox would one more slot that all the other battlcruisers.
As far as I have seen the Ferox is okay.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#555 - 2015-09-27 12:25:32 UTC
Shade Alidiana wrote:
Just a question. Why do you call it a major buff for navy hurri? Alpha is good but rof is like.. really useful. Why not 10% rof instead, if you can't keep both?

(5% rof and damage wouldn't look out of order in one line and/or as one bonus with some of the other ships out there..)


When you have an alpha doctrine, or like me, just want to fly around blapping with arty, the 10% dmg/tracking is well worth the sacrifice of RoF. 3-4k alpha with tracking similar to scorch, at least with drop booster. Fleet cane was compensated slightly with a bigger drone bay to make up for the "DPS" loss, but the raw damage is actually a buff.

I'm good with an overall dps loss, minny need an arty ship that actually works, but isn't god awfully OP like the svipul.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#556 - 2015-09-27 14:19:52 UTC
Bayou wrote:
Trinkets friend wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:
[

which was my original proposal. That + an extra launcher.


However, dropping a high and buffing the RoF bonus means the "Surprise Armour" fit is still viable. (and actually better)


Solo Cyclone
Now, the Cyclone is set up as a solo brawler ship, due to its bonus to shield boosting. Mostly this is interpreted by the user as "fit an XLASB" but that narrows your flying style down into very restricted space; you especially need to be able to use pills, links and so on. But even so, in the majority of cases the Cyclone sucks or doesn't do so well at this because missiles are really quite apalling for solo work and shield brawling, where you will lack hard tackle. (this is why I say the proposed Ferox is going to dominate it due to fitting a web).

It also doesn't help much when your sig radius starts out at stupendous levels and you blow this out even more.

So, the Cyclone is a niche ship designed around a fairly rare, narrow gameplay option for people. The missile velocity bonus adds range, so you might be able to flail ineffectually at kiters, but it's still going to die horribly to Gilas, VNI's and ishtars because you won't be able to run them down.


It's strange how my Cyclone doesn't need links or implants, has web + scram and 2 neuts, is faster than Gilas, VNI's, Ishtars and pretty much any other cruiser, gets multiple kills vs gangs. I really doubt you have ever used it, like most people here.

It is underestimated.


The Cyclone is clearly better the the Drake for solo/small gangs with local tank, while the Drake is clearly better in fleets. People asking for buffs to the Cyclone don't seem to realize how close it is to surpassing the Drake in every way. For example if it lost a utility high for an extra mid it would have to come with a PG nerf and that means it probably can't fit XLASB which would hurt it's strongest fits, so you basically end up fitting double large ancillary boosters where before you only used one mid for the xlasb and losing a utility high for no real gain in tank. At the same time it would work better in gangs with an extra mid because you could fit better resists and buffer tank, add in the speed/agillity of the hull, selectable damage, smaller sig radius and it would probably be better in gangs than a t1 Drake... so I prefer the way it is now, the Cyclone and Drake both tanky missile bc's but with different roles.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#557 - 2015-09-27 16:16:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Devil Seven wrote:
Can you look at giving the ferox a 5th low slot it will give it more fitting options and make it more useful in the proposed update otherwise the rest of them look good just not sure how I like the ferox atm looks like a huge nerf to the thing 7/6/5 is a good number too


the problem the ferox has and has always had is that it has too compete with the drake for usage, and ofc caldari being mainly missile based that has always been against it, only recent buffs too rails has made it useful, these changes still don't really bring it out of the drakes shadow especially with the drake having nearly the same range as a raven now,

some things too help ferox too be more useful

- lower sig and more mobility
- 5th lowslot for a high for greater options
- nerf HAM range too 10km instead of its 20km range it shares with torps
- drake could lose its resist bonus too for some tracking
- myrmidon in a shield dps config also outdoes a ferox for dps and only slightly lower than a shield dps brutix.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#558 - 2015-09-27 16:24:56 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Devil Seven wrote:
Can you look at giving the ferox a 5th low slot it will give it more fitting options and make it more useful in the proposed update otherwise the rest of them look good just not sure how I like the ferox atm looks like a huge nerf to the thing 7/6/5 is a good number too


the problem the ferox has and has always had is that it has too compete with the drake for usage, and ofc caldari being mainly missile based that has always been against it, only recent buffs too rails has made it useful, these changes still don't really bring it out of the drakes shadow especially with the drake having nearly the same range as a raven now,

some things too help ferox too be more useful

- lower sig and more mobility
- 5th lowslot for a high for greater options
- nerf HAM range too 10km instead of its 20km range it shares with torps
- drake could lose its resist bonus too for some tracking
- myrmidon in a shield dps config also outdoes a ferox for dps and only slightly lower than a shield dps brutix.



Where do you get your numbers from? The Drake has 83km maximum heavy missile range with tech1 and faction missiles. That range is only true IF the Drake is not moving and the thing the Drake is shooting at is also not moving.

The Raven gets 266km range with regular and faction missiles.

The Ferox has 100/114km range with 200mm railguns and Spike M or 11/26km with Null M and neutron blasters.

And all Gallente ships should automatically explode on undock when they have shield mods on except for the Talos.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#559 - 2015-09-27 16:32:15 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Devil Seven wrote:
Can you look at giving the ferox a 5th low slot it will give it more fitting options and make it more useful in the proposed update otherwise the rest of them look good just not sure how I like the ferox atm looks like a huge nerf to the thing 7/6/5 is a good number too


the problem the ferox has and has always had is that it has too compete with the drake for usage, and ofc caldari being mainly missile based that has always been against it, only recent buffs too rails has made it useful, these changes still don't really bring it out of the drakes shadow especially with the drake having nearly the same range as a raven now,

some things too help ferox too be more useful

- lower sig and more mobility
- 5th lowslot for a high for greater options
- nerf HAM range too 10km instead of its 20km range it shares with torps
- drake could lose its resist bonus too for some tracking
- myrmidon in a shield dps config also outdoes a ferox for dps and only slightly lower than a shield dps brutix.



Where do you get your numbers from? The Drake has 83km maximum heavy missile range with tech1 and faction missiles. That range is only true IF the Drake is not moving and the thing the Drake is shooting at is also not moving.

The Raven gets 266km range with regular and faction missiles.

The Ferox has 100/114km range with 200mm railguns and Spike M or 11/26km with Null M and neutron blasters.

And all Gallente ships should automatically explode on undock when they have shield mods on except for the Talos.


read the post properly, i mentioned HAM's NOT cruise missiles, and you have clearly not looked at brutix/myrm shield fits compared too what the ferox shield tank will be.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#560 - 2015-09-27 17:04:16 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
...read the post properly, i mentioned HAM's NOT cruise missiles, and you have clearly not looked at brutix/myrm shield fits compared too what the ferox shield tank will be.


You and your nerfs all the time. I say increase torpedo range to 50km and nerf bombers accordingly. And for christ sake give them full application.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever