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Devsite Blog: Adding Bookmarks to the API

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Skalle Pande
Teknisk Forlag
#21 - 2015-08-02 15:59:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Skalle Pande
As far as I can see there are no orbits whatsoever in EVE - all objects in space are static relative to each other, unless they are powered ships and drones, and planets and moons does not rotate. There is no gravity, but there is friction causing free-floating ships to stop. Someone in an old thread described it as being more akin to submarines in space. The orbits drawn on maps and the orbits of Customs Offices displayed by the Planet view are purely decorative.

Isn't that so?

edit: Bugging me too, being a teacher of phiysics and astronomy in real life. But hey, it's just a game - I can do submarines in space Big smile
Varyah
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#22 - 2015-08-05 22:40:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Varyah
CCP Tellus wrote:
Sephira Galamore wrote:
Can we somehow get the inclination of orbits within a solar system?

Let P and S be celestial bodies where P orbits S (planet/sun, moon/planet, etc.). Let V be a normalized directional vector from S to P. Let C be a circle (y = 0.0) whose radius is the Euclidean distance between P and S. Let Q be a quaternion whose x, y, and z components are the cross product of (-1.0, 0.0, 0.0) and V, and w component is the arc-cosine of the dot product of (-1.0, 0.0, 0.0) and V.

P's orbit around S is C rotated by the quaternion Q and translated to S' origin.

Hope that helps.


What if V || (-1, 0, 0)?

Are those the shattered planets?


Btw. which directions are x, y, z? z up, x right or front, y back or right?
Busta Rock
The DawnSoarers
#23 - 2015-08-07 07:16:00 UTC
Skalle Pande wrote:
As far as I can see there are no orbits whatsoever in EVE - all objects in space are static relative to each other, unless they are powered ships and drones, and planets and moons does not rotate. There is no gravity, but there is friction causing free-floating ships to stop. Someone in an old thread described it as being more akin to submarines in space. The orbits drawn on maps and the orbits of Customs Offices displayed by the Planet view are purely decorative.

Isn't that so?

edit: Bugging me too, being a teacher of phiysics and astronomy in real life. But hey, it's just a game - I can do submarines in space Big smile


wouldn't it be great though if orbits and ships behaved a bit more realistically? it wouldnt have to be a proper simulation... all I'm positing is a *touch* - to get rid of a chunk of the submarines in space feel (the bumping mechanics need some work too... ships the size of aircraft carriers shouldnt bounce around like buoys)
CCP Tellus
C C P
C C P Alliance
#24 - 2015-08-07 13:06:48 UTC
Varyah wrote:
What if V || (-1, 0, 0)? Are those the shattered planets?

We fallback to doing no rotation to C.

Varyah wrote:
Btw. which directions are x, y, z? z up, x right or front, y back or right?

I made a map of Jita with the x, y, and z axis rendered as red, green, and blue respectively, beginning at zero and moving along the positive.

Hope that helps.
Captain Thunk
Explode. Now. Please.
Alliance. Now. Please.
#25 - 2015-09-16 17:27:31 UTC
Related to this, can you give us CCPs calculation for the warp to 0 point on a celestial body (eg planet/moon/sun)?

I tried working it out myself from bookmarks and celestial data from the SDE, then in a rare moment of clarity, I remembered I'm god damned awful at Maths.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd find this formula useful as it's extremely significant with many BMs.

Thanks in advance if you take the time, :grrrCCP: if you don't
Captain Thunk
Explode. Now. Please.
Alliance. Now. Please.
#26 - 2015-09-18 09:59:46 UTC
:grrrCCP:
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#27 - 2015-09-26 08:40:50 UTC
Captain Thunk wrote:
:grrrCCP:


Yes, yes we can. That is an easy one. I am at EVEsterdam right now. Ping me sometime after Tuesday and I will try and dig it up. I will also send an email now to some people but yea, wont be able to follow it up until later.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
Captain Thunk
Explode. Now. Please.
Alliance. Now. Please.
#28 - 2015-09-26 10:12:08 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Captain Thunk wrote:
:grrrCCP:


Yes, yes we can. That is an easy one. I am at EVEsterdam right now. Ping me sometime after Tuesday and I will try and dig it up. I will also send an email now to some people but yea, wont be able to follow it up until later.


P

This is why I love you guys, thanks.
Atum' Ra
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2015-09-28 09:56:43 UTC
That's nice. really nice. Big smile
It is interesting when you add the ability to create bookmarks for the alliance?
CCP Tellus
C C P
C C P Alliance
#30 - 2015-10-07 19:04:47 UTC
Captain Thunk wrote:
Related to this, can you give us CCPs calculation for the warp to 0 point on a celestial body (eg planet/moon/sun)?

Hope this helps! https://eveonline-third-party-documentation.readthedocs.org/en/latest/formulas/warpinpoints/
Captain Thunk
Explode. Now. Please.
Alliance. Now. Please.
#31 - 2015-10-13 21:57:27 UTC
CCP Tellus wrote:
Captain Thunk wrote:
Related to this, can you give us CCPs calculation for the warp to 0 point on a celestial body (eg planet/moon/sun)?

Hope this helps! https://eveonline-third-party-documentation.readthedocs.org/en/latest/formulas/warpinpoints/


It doesn't help me at all, I'll spend months trying to work out what the hell that says.

But you've given me exactly what I asked for and you are wonderful wonderful people for doing that. I appreciate it a lot.

CCP #1
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#32 - 2015-10-14 08:07:02 UTC
Captain Thunk wrote:
CCP Tellus wrote:
Captain Thunk wrote:
Related to this, can you give us CCPs calculation for the warp to 0 point on a celestial body (eg planet/moon/sun)?

Hope this helps! https://eveonline-third-party-documentation.readthedocs.org/en/latest/formulas/warpinpoints/


It doesn't help me at all, I'll spend months trying to work out what the hell that says.

But you've given me exactly what I asked for and you are wonderful wonderful people for doing that. I appreciate it a lot.

CCP #1


If you figure it out, because **** if I understand it either, feel free to update the documentation with something a bit easier to understand.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
Captain Thunk
Explode. Now. Please.
Alliance. Now. Please.
#33 - 2015-10-14 09:06:00 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Captain Thunk wrote:
CCP Tellus wrote:
Captain Thunk wrote:
Related to this, can you give us CCPs calculation for the warp to 0 point on a celestial body (eg planet/moon/sun)?

Hope this helps! https://eveonline-third-party-documentation.readthedocs.org/en/latest/formulas/warpinpoints/


It doesn't help me at all, I'll spend months trying to work out what the hell that says.

But you've given me exactly what I asked for and you are wonderful wonderful people for doing that. I appreciate it a lot.

CCP #1


If you figure it out, because **** if I understand it either, feel free to update the documentation with something a bit easier to understand.


Sure, I'm pretty sure that python random seeding is not going to produce the same numbers as in PHP, so I'll whizz through all the affected IDs and produce a table with what Pythons going to return for non-python apps.

It'll be a couple of weeks yet before I look at this as I'm still laughing at PL having won ATXIII and I'm nowhere near done yet.
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#34 - 2015-10-14 09:50:27 UTC
Captain Thunk wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Captain Thunk wrote:
CCP Tellus wrote:
Captain Thunk wrote:
Related to this, can you give us CCPs calculation for the warp to 0 point on a celestial body (eg planet/moon/sun)?

Hope this helps! https://eveonline-third-party-documentation.readthedocs.org/en/latest/formulas/warpinpoints/


It doesn't help me at all, I'll spend months trying to work out what the hell that says.

But you've given me exactly what I asked for and you are wonderful wonderful people for doing that. I appreciate it a lot.

CCP #1


If you figure it out, because **** if I understand it either, feel free to update the documentation with something a bit easier to understand.


Sure, I'm pretty sure that python random seeding is not going to produce the same numbers as in PHP, so I'll whizz through all the affected IDs and produce a table with what Pythons going to return for non-python apps.

It'll be a couple of weeks yet before I look at this as I'm still laughing at PL having won ATXIII and I'm nowhere near done yet.


>.<

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
Megarom
Shiva
Northern Coalition.
#35 - 2015-10-14 10:09:18 UTC
Captain Thunk wrote:

Sure, I'm pretty sure that python random seeding is not going to produce the same numbers as in PHP, so I'll whizz through all the affected IDs and produce a table with what Pythons going to return for non-python apps.


I took a quick look in to python source code here https://hg.python.org/cpython/file/2.7/Lib/random.py
It should be relatively simple to come up with a function snippet that generates the first pseudorandom value from given seed, but there is some nasty looking comments about hardware specifics affecting the result.
Captain Thunk
Explode. Now. Please.
Alliance. Now. Please.
#36 - 2015-10-14 11:53:21 UTC
Megarom wrote:
Captain Thunk wrote:

Sure, I'm pretty sure that python random seeding is not going to produce the same numbers as in PHP, so I'll whizz through all the affected IDs and produce a table with what Pythons going to return for non-python apps.


I took a quick look in to python source code here https://hg.python.org/cpython/file/2.7/Lib/random.py
It should be relatively simple to come up with a function snippet that generates the first pseudorandom value from given seed, but there is some nasty looking comments about hardware specifics affecting the result.


hardware specifics are going to be awkward.
CCP Tellus
C C P
C C P Alliance
#37 - 2015-10-14 12:55:26 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Tellus
Megarom wrote:
It should be relatively simple to come up with a function snippet that generates the first pseudorandom value from given seed, but there is some nasty looking comments about hardware specifics affecting the result.

I don't think there's anything hardware specific in the method used to generate the random numbers. From what I can tell, the default Mersenne Twister algorithm is used, which for CPython is implemented in C.

$ for i in {1..10}; do python -c 'import random; print(random.Random('$i').random())'; done
0.13436424411240122
0.9560342718892494
0.23796462709189137
0.23604808973743452
0.6229016948897019
0.793340083761663
0.32383276483316237
0.2267058593810488
0.46300735781502145
0.5714025946899135


Here's a sample implementation of computing a planet's warp-in in Python:

import math
import random

def warpin(id, x, y, z, r):
    j = (random.Random(id).random() - 1.0) / 3.0
    t = j - math.asin(x/abs(x) * (z/math.sqrt(x**2 + z**2)))
    s = 20.0 * (1.0/40.0 * (10 * math.log10(r/10**6) - 39))**20.0 + 1.0/2.0
    s = max(0.5, min(s, 10.5))
    d = r*(s + 1) + 1000000

    return (d * math.sin(t), 1.0/2.0 * r * math.sin(j), d * math.cos(t))
Captain Thunk
Explode. Now. Please.
Alliance. Now. Please.
#38 - 2015-10-14 17:42:57 UTC
You're pretty damned awesome CCP Tellus
Arden Bastilla
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2015-10-15 21:03:49 UTC
HAHA, I love how even the Devs have derailed this thread about the Bookmarks API endpoint into orbital/warpin calculations. I love the math btw.

However, can a dev/someone please explain the value of having bookmark API endpoint? What what I can tell we can't use the endpoint data to import BMs into Eve, correct that if I'm wrong. Does the Endpoint help with Alliance/C2C BM management at all?
Captain Thunk
Explode. Now. Please.
Alliance. Now. Please.
#40 - 2015-10-16 12:15:05 UTC
CCP Tellus wrote:

import math
import random

def warpin(id, x, y, z, r):
    j = (random.Random(id).random() - 1.0) / 3.0
    t = j - math.asin(x/abs(x) * (z/math.sqrt(x**2 + z**2)))
    s = 20.0 * (1.0/40.0 * (10 * math.log10(r/10**6) - 39))**20.0 + 1.0/2.0
    s = max(0.5, min(s, 10.5))
    d = r*(s + 1) + 1000000

    return (d * math.sin(t), 1.0/2.0 * r * math.sin(j), d * math.cos(t))


This is not working as expected.

Using Mies I as an example, the SDE shows the values for id, x, t, z and r as:
id = 40314597
x = 51241559888
y = -1328521670
z = -43622755751
r = 5100000

warpin returns these as (5261845.3655822901, -357459.55161051254, 8307355.203655405)
When added to the original vector for the planet it's: (51236298042.634415, -1328879129.5516105, -43631063106.203659)

While the Y is within 1km of the expected value the x and z values are massively incorrect, a BM at 0km shows the true expected values to be: (51234245041.1568, -1328878026.30105, -43629232504.5183) with a small margin of error due to warp jitter and intended randomness
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