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Two Step: killing the gravy train...

First post First post First post
Author
KIAGumpy
Tri-gun
An Alliance Has No Name
#21 - 2015-09-18 15:51:16 UTC  |  Edited by: KIAGumpy
Incursions are great and also not actually a huge isk fountain something like 3% of daily isk generated in eve.

Where else in eve do you have public fleets all working together for a common goal?

Public communities with srp and all the drama and general typical community stealing comes with.

Contesting leading to group not liking each other so much

Mom popping sprees and the tears that follow

Have you actually sat in an incursion fleet for a few hours and enjoyed it?

At least people have to be at keyboard unlike afktars... warp deploy drones come back in 20 mins to warp again nothing broken here at all.

I feel twostep is the donald trump of csm dudes going for the cheap percieved issues
Braxus Deninard
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#22 - 2015-09-18 15:56:03 UTC
ExookiZ wrote:
if you think theres risk in cap escalations you are doing it wrong.


ironic considering i dumpstered your home sites fleet twice in a 5 day period for around 100b Lol

anyway i agree with the majority of the article - cap escalations are a huge moneymaker which probably needs scaling back but it's important to remember that they're also a huge content creator in high class space and people spend a lot of time hunting exposed caps. anything that exposes more capitals on field to make more money is a bonus in my eyes, so i wouldn't be against forcing people to risk more to get the same money. i honestly think that is the best solution, just force people to risk more.

the decision has probably already been made about what to do with escalations but you do need to be careful to not discourage people from running escalations and buying/fielding capitals - if anything create a mechanic which will encourage them to take more risk, not one that makes the isk generation easier.

i don't understand the whole moving escalation isk to static idea - what sort of risk are we creating there for people? who wants to kill a bunch of domis doing sites in a static? would you rather roll into a large capital fleet stuck in siege/triage and have a brawl with that or roll into some domis which will just mjd out and warp?
Andrew Jester
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#23 - 2015-09-18 16:08:37 UTC
just lol if you think narrowly avoiding being captured by the skin of your MJD just isn't the highest tier of WH elite dvd

If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy

Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#24 - 2015-09-18 16:19:48 UTC
Aladar Dangerface wrote:
Escalation isk needs moved into the static and reduced a touch.

Incursions need to DIAF. I was so hoping that the drifter incursions were the beginning of the end for the sansha ones.



Reduced a touch? They need to be taken out and beaten to hell with a frying pan.

Move escalations into shattered space, link the shattered together into one giant highway. If people want to bear all day, make them bear in shattered space moving their gigantic bear fleet though shattered holes.

Enough of this instances solo locked up escalation in c5 and c6 space. It's rediculous.

Aka there is the mad.

"Well what about incursions and nullsec and ...."

... I don't flipping care, this is WSpace, I care about WSpace things!!.

If you are so panic'd that your ISK for hour will drop because Incursions pay more, then GTFO.

Yaay!!!!

ExookiZ
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#25 - 2015-09-18 17:29:59 UTC  |  Edited by: ExookiZ
Braxus Deninard wrote:
ExookiZ wrote:
if you think theres risk in cap escalations you are doing it wrong.


ironic considering i dumpstered your home sites fleet twice in a 5 day period for around 100b Lol

anyway i agree with the majority of the article - cap escalations are a huge moneymaker which probably needs scaling back but it's important to remember that they're also a huge content creator in high class space and people spend a lot of time hunting exposed caps. anything that exposes more capitals on field to make more money is a bonus in my eyes, so i wouldn't be against forcing people to risk more to get the same money. i honestly think that is the best solution, just force people to risk more.

the decision has probably already been made about what to do with escalations but you do need to be careful to not discourage people from running escalations and buying/fielding capitals - if anything create a mechanic which will encourage them to take more risk, not one that makes the isk generation easier.

i don't understand the whole moving escalation isk to static idea - what sort of risk are we creating there for people? who wants to kill a bunch of domis doing sites in a static? would you rather roll into a large capital fleet stuck in siege/triage and have a brawl with that or roll into some domis which will just mjd out and warp?


we were outdated ;) anyone who still runs escalations that way is rightly going to get dumpstered. but those days are gone, current trends are running cap escalations without caps on field for more than a second so the risk or content for others just isnt there.

more importantly, the fact that most of c5/c6 space is occupied by tiny farming corps is proof that escalations are tons of money, req little to no effort,and the risk and effort certainly isnt enough to stop people from trying

Event Organizer of EVE North East

Neckbeard Nolyfe
Zero Fun Allowed
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#26 - 2015-09-18 17:34:22 UTC
I'm sure that reducing escalations to domis in static would be really healthy.

How many groups out there roll/scan endless chains (invest countless hours) just for the opportunity to find someone bearing with caps?
Will they continue to invest so much time and effort into the game when the biggest target they can find is a paladin?

And as for the 'more activity in wh space because ppl farming in static'; You think people will not roll connections in their statics (lets be honest, if escalations get kill, it will probably be unoccupied) and close not 1 system (their home), but 2 (static and home).

~lvl 60 paladin~

Tug Speedman
Big Beaver Corp
#27 - 2015-09-18 17:44:03 UTC
Neckbeard Nolyfe wrote:
I'm sure that reducing escalations to domis in static would be really healthy.

How many groups out there roll/scan endless chains (invest countless hours) just for the opportunity to find someone bearing with caps?
Will they continue to invest so much time and effort into the game when the biggest target they can find is a paladin?

And as for the 'more activity in wh space because ppl farming in static'; You think people will not roll connections in their statics (lets be honest, if escalations get kill, it will probably be unoccupied) and close not 1 system (their home), but 2 (static and home).



This too much true! Risk averse wermholer always use mechanics to their protection.

Pvp group leave chain open, like direct highway to their home always open.

My proposal be broadcast chain to all eve and let the content come to you. More frag, more fun!

Friend of Wormhole, Enemy of troll.

corbexx
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2015-09-18 18:02:28 UTC
Tug Speedman wrote:


My proposal be broadcast chain to all eve and let the content come to you. More frag, more fun!


that sounds like using null sec and dotlan, goons is recruiting.
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
#29 - 2015-09-18 21:26:36 UTC
The best and most important line in this article is
"Any income source that isn’t based on direct competition with another player should pay peanuts compared to one that is."

Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project

Winthorp
#30 - 2015-09-18 21:27:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Winthorp
Two step wrote:

Winthorp wrote:
The whole article reaks of someone who just became bored with the game and too bitter to have a go at something different.

The article pretty much has no substance at all to any of his arguments that it just comes off like a crying teenager that just got dumped by their boyfriend and can't look at another boy at the mall.

Seriously keep playing Ark Two Step and don't come back.


I have done just about all there is to do in EVE, from highsec industry to nullsec. The whole article is about that the issue is not "I need something to do" but that when I do stuff to other people, they should care. That is what sets EVE apart from other games, and it is getting watered down every day.



Sure i agreed with nerfing escalations, i always have.

You do realise in your article you provided no alternatives, no thought out structure to changes, nor did you go into any detail as to why they are bad. You just carried on about people are too rich now they don't care if they lose a ship now, blah blah blah. You really did cry like a child about how the cream pies don't taste any good and mummy keeps making me eat them.

That article was a joke m8, if you write more spend more then a few minutes thinking them out a bit, it was horrible to read.
Braxus Deninard
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#31 - 2015-09-18 21:33:08 UTC
Neckbeard Nolyfe wrote:
I'm sure that reducing escalations to domis in static would be really healthy.

How many groups out there roll/scan endless chains (invest countless hours) just for the opportunity to find someone bearing with caps?
Will they continue to invest so much time and effort into the game when the biggest target they can find is a paladin?

And as for the 'more activity in wh space because ppl farming in static'; You think people will not roll connections in their statics (lets be honest, if escalations get kill, it will probably be unoccupied) and close not 1 system (their home), but 2 (static and home).



exactly this. for example there's one major group in particular which does nothing but run static sites these days and they crit all holes connecting to their static with luxury yachts (yes, luxury yachts with an oversized propmod and a cloak), and then they deploy the marauders and ventures.

nobody is going to invest the time into w-space that they currently do when the chance of finding something good becomes even lower than it already is.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#32 - 2015-09-19 02:51:31 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
It's an idealistic article.

It's a true one but an idealistic one.

There comes a point in all games where everybody becomes rich. Eve has hit that.

A billion isk doesn't mean anything anymore.

Make eve harder. Maybe.


You must want to play this game alone. Plex cost 1.3 bill isk.............
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#33 - 2015-09-19 04:49:58 UTC
corbexx wrote:
Winthorp wrote:

Onto escalations as i have said in the trweetfleet wormholes slack channel, i believe we are about to get a WH escalations nerf. Day 1 of the summit minutes discusses WH PVE and then NDA's the discussion. Combine this with our current WH CSM that wants to nerf home WH escalation and encourage more actual group site farming with escalations based on ships other then capitals. (I hove spoken with Corbexx about this in the past and i really support a WH escalation nerf even though i am one of the bads abusing said mechanic).

His previous ideas i believe would encourage people to be in a lot of different ships out and about in more unsafe chains. What could anyone not like about that. Whether his ideas would ever line up with CCP's ideas on to how to solve this i would reserve judgement lol.


pretty much this. alot has been NDA'd out. I think a fair few would agree cap escalations are used for printing isk, but you know what its in the rules and I don't blame anyone for milking them for all there worth. I sure have.

I still don't think they are good for w space, though and want them changed.


And replaced with what? What other ships besides Caps can do C5/C6s reliably?
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#34 - 2015-09-19 05:05:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniela Doran
When I was on the CSM, I basically said just that. Nullsec PvE should be group based, just like wormhole PvE used to be. You have to be in a group to take space in nullsec, why should you be able to make isk solo (and mostly risk free)?

Winthorp wrote:
The whole article reaks of someone who just became bored with the game and too bitter to have a go at something different.

The article pretty much has no substance at all to any of his arguments that it just comes off like a crying teenager that just got dumped by their boyfriend and can't look at another boy at the mall.

Seriously keep playing Ark Two Step and don't come back.


I have done just about all there is to do in EVE, from highsec industry to nullsec. The whole article is about that the issue is not "I need something to do" but that when I do stuff to other people, they should care. That is what sets EVE apart from other games, and it is getting watered down every day.

Also, wtf is Ark?

Also, I love how your next post is basically agreeing with everything I said. I have no problem with capital escalations that take 10 or 15 people and some time to complete, so people have a chance to jump those people.

Mike Voidstar wrote:
This quote says it all about the author's grasp of reality:

Quote:
It needs more poor players who are desperate for their next paycheck,


Those guys don't:
Quote:
who can be bribed to change sides. It needs more times where you swear at your PC, throw your headset down in disgust and swear to quit the game for good this time, only to come back the next day more determined than ever to get your revenge.


Those guys just leave, because a dystopian society makes for a great thing to read about, not to live through.




Group this, group that, everything in this game is group, group, and more grouping. THe lack of solo play is what will kill eve because not everyone can play at the same time all the time due to RL situations and work.

Winthorp is right, you should go back to Ark (whatever that is).
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#35 - 2015-09-19 08:25:02 UTC
KIAGumpy wrote:

Have you actually sat in an incursion fleet for a few hours and enjoyed it?


No. unpossible.

Virginal neckbeard aspies wheezing at you because your drones aren't spendy enough and you didn't get enough wrecking shots.

I agree with Two Step insofar as the amount of ISK in the game and the ease with which the means of production can be co-opted, rented out and optimised and organised is a little stupid. There's something to be said for re-evaluating the whole economy of EVE to put incentives in the system to prevent blue donuts (in and out of W-space).

But at the end of the day, doing it right now, is probably a risk. Screw the economy up and people will leave.

if anything, ISk rewards need to be flatter between peak players and noobs, to allow the noobs to accumulate ISk significantly faster. ISK generating activities need to be less able to be funnelled into corporate structures and corporate coffers and the control of the heirarchy of old players, so that these old, rich bastards need to fight each other versus just come down to agreements and donuts.

Mostly, this does involve trashing the moon goo system, and trashing Incursions, and trashing escalations, because goo goes to the existing entities, which enforces the status quo. incursions go to insufferable neckbeards and FCs who run a small closed circle of bequeathmentand require ridiculous fits to engage in. Finally, escalation ISK allows people to run solo bear holes with impunity, which basically has fractured w-space into isolated ISk-printing factories where no one interacts or has need to interact except to do a monthly fuel run. This ISk then goes to fund Nullsec, Lowsec or other game activities.

But do we need everyone to be impoverished slumlords? no. Part of the joy of wealth in EVE i flying spendy ships or varied doctrines and not worrying overmch whether you can afford to fly what you are possibly going to lose.

This is the problem with Two Step's line of reasoning. He thinks that a hand-to-mouth existence will reduce the massive bearing that goes on. That somehow if everyone can only afford a Drake a week, they'll be more happy to play Drakes online than flying T3's everywhere and helicoptering Swaglfars about the joint with impunity.

I doubt it. Making everyone a poor bastard who cannot collect their toys, be a completionist, a hoarder or just fly whatever, whenever - thereby forcing them to bear longer toachieve the same goals - will turn people off. Oddly, Two Step says that the push for everything to be small ships and small gang is wrong, but his way would see the same effect via a different mechanism.




unimatrix0030
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2015-09-19 19:52:57 UTC  |  Edited by: unimatrix0030
While i agree that cap escalations in its current for are a problem and that incursians need to DIAF and moon goo needs to be axed, i think you guys forget some things.
Cap escalations used to be not such a big problem when there were more hunters around when the instant sig spawn didn't exist. Now with the instant sig spawn cap escalations are not that big a risk.
So increasing the risk should be a thing.

idea:
Maybe every sleeper has a special capital warp disruptor thingy that makes it necesairy to finish the site when using caps.
That way you need to finish the site when using caps. You still get more then when not using caps, but lose the site after that.

While doing more in the static is good(the more ships in space the bether), a cap should still be able to be an advantage in a pve-site because there is so few uses for them anyway.
We can use them as repping platform-killing other caps, for pos/citadel bashes and for doing pve sites. The more we get these puppys in space them more we can go out and shoot them.
While pos/citadel bashes is a large portion of wh capital gameplay, it is usualy not a day to day thing.
Doing pve-sites with a cap should be though.

Also keep in mind the risk/isk ballance currently that is out of wack.
Null sec is the easiest way to earn isk these days, then incursions then wh capital escalations.
If they are nerf the isk they generate/sink should be redistributed to the other isk sink/fossets(or new ones) while following the isk/risk balance .

Also making everyone a poor bastard is not a good idea because it will drive out even more plex-players then what already is the case now.

No local in null sec would fix everything!

O'nira
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#37 - 2015-09-19 23:38:19 UTC
escalations definitely need changing, of course you could just bring back the API thing that showed when pve was done in the system instead.
Freddie Merrcury
Fukushima Daiichi Electric Power Co.
#38 - 2015-09-20 00:34:55 UTC
CLASS 7 WURMHOLE WHEN?

I been kicked out of better homes than this.

Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#39 - 2015-09-20 03:22:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
Daniela Doran wrote:
And replaced with what? What other ships besides Caps can do C5/C6s reliably?

Back in the day C6s were run by Guardian supported T3 fleets and it worked just fine.
You can also take a carrier and 6 BSs into the static to run sites.
Now you could also easily run then in Marauders.

C5s can be done in RR BSs or better.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#40 - 2015-09-20 04:41:41 UTC
I don't think the answer is nerfing cap escallations, I think the answer is buffing the sleepless guardians. Not more blue loot and not more salvage. Give them a speed boost/smaller sig radius and give them a much larger spawn pattern. I'll say it again (and again if I have to) - forcing pve into the static isn't going to create instant and lasting content. In 5 days there will be a guide on how to do the new sites w/ optimal safety including optimal ships and optimal fittings. Come on guys - it's what we do with everything in this game.

I truely believe 1 wh can (and should) only support so many folks before there just isn't enough isk. Moving easy isk (that would be the completion can that gets brought up time and again) to the static would just allow more folks to feed out of the same wh. There will be a brief period where it will be great, then corp sizes will stabalize at a larger size and we'll have the same problem. I also truely believe that folks won't become suddenly stupid and open themselves up to easy pickings in their static. Risk averse farmers will marauder into the static, run the data/relic sights, roll and repeat. It won't be the pvp fest you're looking for. They see danger they'll warp safe, cloak and wait you out, or just log and scan out later.

I think keeping fleets in a site longer and redesigning the site so a sub cap fleet is needed is the way to go. The problem w/ escallations right now is that I can dual box 2 dreads and blap the esc BS as they claw their way out to range and I can play minesweeper on my other computer while doing it. There are a lot of ways to fix that. Smaller sig radius is an obvious first choice. Larger spaw pattern would elliminate the crawling away to optimal slaughter. Give each site 6 possible escallation spawn sites and pick each escallation spawn at random when the cap lands. There are a lot of simple things you can do to take escallation isk out of automatic.

Ideas:

1. Random spawn points for escallation spawns
2. Lower sig radius for sleepless guardians (much lower)
3. Give sleepless guardians some resistance to webs/painter effects (there are mission npcs that are immune to webs)
4. Give sleepless guardians MJD so you have to scram the bastards to hold them down.


TL/DR - The problem is that capital escallations are too easy, not that capital escallations exist in your home system. Keep the payout - just make it the team sport it was supposed to be.