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[Vanguard] Combat and Navy BC Rebalance

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Alek Row
Silent Step
#181 - 2015-09-11 22:01:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Alek Row
In some ships it looks like you only used the ship usage/damage to make changes (drake), while in others you went solely with other "data" (cyclone)... you have to admit Fozzie, it really isn't much transparent :-)

Anyway, thanks for keep trying to do this a better game, for better or worse you at least continue trying.

Obs: CCP still uses agile right? Please try to have time between those agile sprints to do small touches on things that need those touches, we all though it would be different with the 1.5 months release cycle but some little things are really taking too long, scream to who ever you need to scream, get that time - example: with those hull hp increases shouldn't hull rig penalties be changed to something that matters?
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#182 - 2015-09-11 22:09:42 UTC
Quote:
Multiple ship types are damage locked. Your just unhappy that the ones you fly are kinetic. You still HAVE the option of changing damage type against what its bonused For. It's not FORCED on you. Your weapon system is not locked. Your ship is not locked. You have the option of changing at your will. It's just Bonused towards it. You feel you are locked in because of the Bonus. Plenty of times tho I have changed ammo off of Bonused ammo to get better hits on something. You just need to know when to cycle ammo.

Nope. It's like flying rails with laser bonuses hull. If there are no application no point of not choose kinetic. Most of guns deal 2 types of damage, whole point of missiles at its base: less damage (and only one type) but selectable. Also insta swap ammo vs. 10sec (or 35sec). Look at drone boats. We can have drone boats with selectable damage but not missiles hulls? Same damage delay in most cases.

Now a riddle: some hull don't have kinetic lock and it's good, some have and it's called "a useful tool for creating interesting distinctions between ships". Why?

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Feodor Romanov
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#183 - 2015-09-11 22:10:00 UTC
My thoughts about pvp usefulness of BC's after the upcoming patch.

Hurricane and Cyclone will be Awesome!

Hull Brutix is fine, solo Myrm is still OK.

I think Prophecy need drone bandwidth 100+ or it will be the bad copy of Navy Vexor (If somebody want to use it not as bait or cyno ship)
Harbinger need more capacitor and PG to fit beams.

Ferox will be interesting, but need more targeting range to use double range bonus with rails.
Drake have not enough mid slots for solo PVP fits. For fleet use Drake have bad DPS and only kinetic damage. And no damage application bonus. So I think drake will remain newbie ratting machine.
Pleniers
Appetite 4 Destruction
#184 - 2015-09-11 22:21:59 UTC
I been flying, almost exclusively, combat battlecruisers in the last couple month, specially the Gnosis.

The combat battlecruiser class need something unique in order to make the the "go to" ships in a particular situation. Even though damage application is welcome it still falls into the competition with Hacs and Assault BCs. The MJD is a great tool to make them unique (and generally more survival because 95% of times I use it to dodge long range intercepters) but another unique feature would be nice.

Boosting the sensor strengh to values around 40 or 50 would provide a unique set of characteristics to this class and avoid competition with Assault BCs or Hacs. This could turn them into a nice ECM resistant ship, or create a new gameplay due to being harder to probe.

Or In alternative, why not make them invulnerable to enemy neuts? This would allow for combat BCs to perform unique roles in fleets or solo alike.

I trully think this "damage projection" aproach rather unimaginative. For me a great example of success is how you made force recons invisible to D-Scan. That option was out-of-the-box and I'd like to see such a thing for a Combat BC to trully differenciate from other ships with DPS roles.

Also, the reason I use almost exclusively the Gnosis is due to it's amazing align and warp off fast reaction. Nowdays, in a Combat BC it takes aaaaaaages for it to enter warp. More than once I tried to avoid being tackled while being 0km on a gate, only to find out that the damn ship slowboated more than 5km off the gate trying to align out, getting me killed in the process ofc.... I fear the proposed changes to align time and inertia might not be enough to avoid such ridiculous events from happening again, and having people put the BC class back in the shelf due to that factor.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#185 - 2015-09-11 22:25:06 UTC
Ty fozz... cant wait to see whats in store for battleships

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#186 - 2015-09-11 22:26:58 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
this whole thing sucks, but I really do like seeing generic (optimal + falloff) range bonuses. it's pretty horrible getting an optimal bonus on a projectile ship, or pretty much any range bonus on a gallente ship (T2 ammo blasters being about as much optimal as falloff, and antimatter being all falloff).



Uh, the Myrm and Brutix are getting an optimal and falloff bonus


I was talking about all the existing range bonuses in game, and how these new ones are less awkward for autocannons and hybrids.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#187 - 2015-09-11 22:41:16 UTC
Destoya wrote:
I'll admit I laughed when I saw the Drake Navy damage statistics. Was the worst ship in the game in my opinion. Adding that resist bonus and extra shields will help a lot.

The Navy Drake already had plenty of shields. Adding more in addition to the resist bonus is going to be rather powerful. I'm surprised they're giving it such a strong buff.

No missile range bonus is probably going to hurt its utility with HAMs though.
Feodor Romanov
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#188 - 2015-09-11 22:43:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Feodor Romanov
Navy Harb have no PG to fit beams and no cap for MWD. Pulse fits usually have double webs, so +25 drone bandwidth is good but Valks is good enough to kill double webbed anything.

Navy drake is bad really. How about 10% ER bonus? Or - 2 launcher slots + 1 mid slot, and 10% missile damage per lvl bonus (not kinetic) like other BC's have?! Or just leave ship bonuses as we have now. I'd like to have drake with good speed and double range bonus as ferox will have.

Navy Brutix is a good fleet and solo machine.

Shield arty Fleet Cane with 10% tracking bonus and such alpha damage will be crazy.
Lucius Exitius
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#189 - 2015-09-11 22:46:06 UTC
Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:
Ao Kishuba wrote:
Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:
Ao Kishuba wrote:
[quote=CCP Fozzie]
I know some players will be dissapointed that the damage bonus continues to be restricted to kinetic, but we do believe that damage specific bonuses are a useful tool for creating interesting distinctions between ships and we have no plans to phase them out.[/i]

Then why aren't Gallente drones damage locked? Or Amarr drones? Or Minmatar missiles or projectiles? Why is Caldari the only race with an artificial damage lock on a weapon system which should otherwise be free to use any damage type?


What?! .................... Damage types of Existing weapon systems and what damage type they are locked to.

Gallente Drones - Thermal
Amarr Drones - EM
Caldari Drones - Kinetic
Minmitar Drones - Explosive
Gecko - Universal

Some of Caldari ships are Kinetic locked? While except for Projectiles and Drones(almost every ship today has them.. no longer a gallente thing..) every other weapon type has locked damage.




Not sure why you listed different racial drones... every bonused drone ship gets a bonus to all drones (some are restricted to a size of drone, but never to a damage type or race), so listing separate racial drones is like listing different missile types and saying "See? It's damage locked".

There is a difference between "My battleship has 50mbit/s of bandwidth and is bonused for missiles" and "My cruiser can field a flight of sentries and gets several bonuses use them". I'm talking about main weapon systems, not utility drones.

edit: and again, you've missed that every non-Caldari missile ship in the game (with the exception of the Talwar) is not damage locked.Caldari are the only race without a selectable-damage main weapon system in every ship class.


Every Ship class? Since i'm bored as hell and fly Caldari a decent amount of times without having to worry about Kinetic missiles.. I decided to Look into all the Caldari ships to Verify that Every Class is unable to select Damage for its main weapon system.

Caldari ships NOT damage Locked - T1 Missile Bonused Hulls

Kestrel -Frigate Class: No damage lock
Caldari Frigate bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to Light Missile and Rocket damage
10% bonus to Light Missile and Rocket max velocity

Caracal- Cruiser class : An Often used PVP ship across all regions - No Damage Lock
Caldari Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to Rapid Light Missile, Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile Launcher rate of fire
10% bonus to Light Missile, Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile max velocity

Raven - Battleship Class: This ship seeing ALOT of PVP usage lately - No Damage Lock
Caldari Battleship bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to Rapid Heavy Missile, Cruise Missile and Torpedo Launcher rate of fire
10% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo max velocity

Phoenix - Dreadnought Class - No Damage Lock
Caldari Dreadnought bonuses (per skill level):
4% bonus to all shield resistances
5% bonus to Citadel Cruise and Citadel Torpedo Launcher rate of fire
Role Bonus:
• Can fit Siege modules

Caldari Ships that Are Kinetic Locked - T1 Hulls
Condor - Frigate Class
Corax - Destroyer Class
Drake - Battlecruiser

4 Missile boats NOT locked on damage type Kestrel, Caracal, Raven, Phoenix
3 Missile boats Locked Condor, Corax, Drake

Tech 2 Hulls.

T2 Missile Bonused Hulls Not Locked
Crow - Interceptor
Jackdaw - Tactical Destroyer
Widow - Black Ops
Golem - Marauder

T2 Missile Bonus Hulls Kinetic Locked
Hawk - Assault Frigate
Manticore - Bomber
Flycatcher - Interdictor
Cerberus - HAC
Onyx - Heavy Interdictor
Nighthawk - Command ship

T2 hulls have 6 locked 4 not locked

Navy Issues (since why not finish off the types...)

Caldari Navy Hookbill - 20% bonus to Kinetic Light missile and rocket Damage + 10% bonus to EM, Explosive, thermal for light missiles and rockets. Since the larger Bonus is towards Kinetic.. I'll throw this as Locked for ya to save debating
Caracal Navy Issues - Not Locked
Drake Navy Issue - Not Locked
Raven Navy Issue - Not Locked

Navy Hulls have 3 Not Locked to 1 locked.

Tech 3
Tengu Offensive subsystems have 2 Not Locked and 1 Locked.

All classes are NOT damage Locked. Plenty of ships to choose from across the spectrum.

You may continue your argument about how they are all forced to use one damage type now.



Not able to look at every ship on the list to see their bonuses but the whens you have the stats for is that if they have the lock, they have a damage bonus and not just a velocity, RoF, or explosion radius bonus.
Yong Shin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#190 - 2015-09-11 22:46:48 UTC
For some reason, all the battleships in my station feel a little more irrelevant now.

Brutix base EHP (before counting resists/modules, of course) is coming disturbingly close to my Marauders now.

Don't mind me, though. Probably just my jealous tears that BCs are getting buffed~
sten mattson
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#191 - 2015-09-11 22:52:56 UTC
i love the changes so far!

however i am not sure that the cap buff to the navy harb will be enough to help with its cap hungry lasers which collectively consume more cap that a running microwarp drive!

the vanilla harb is fine thanks to its cap use bonus (which should really be a role bonus tbh).

kinda dissappointed the warp speeds werent upped slightly.

and i am not looking forward to fight arty hurricane fleets thats for sure! :P

IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!!
Blackfeathers
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#192 - 2015-09-11 22:53:35 UTC
<3 the Hurricane / Hurricane Fleet issue changes. Should make them fun to fly!
Kamahl Daikun
State War Academy
Caldari State
#193 - 2015-09-11 22:54:55 UTC
Ravcharas wrote:
No warp-speed tweaks?


Yea, this.
These are all really great changes but I'd think the warp speed of BCs is one of the main reasons you don't see them in fleets too often.
Even traveling behind frigs in a cruiser is frustrating.
Feodor Romanov
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#194 - 2015-09-11 23:31:05 UTC
If Caldari ships have kinetic damage restrictions, then gallente ships must have only thermal drone damage bonus, amarr EM drone damage bonus and all Matar missile boats explosive damage restrictions.
Ransu Asanari
Perkone
Caldari State
#195 - 2015-09-11 23:41:50 UTC
There are enough people upset about the racial damage lock on the Drake - maybe we can have that discussion in a separate thread? I've created one here:

F&I - Missile Damage Lock Discussion
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#196 - 2015-09-11 23:44:56 UTC
Aww, since it's Friday night, they won't hit SiSi tonight or tomorrow, my guess is later next week.

(Read with Morgan Freemans deep serious voice) Or will they?

Now the only thing the Harbinger needs is a tad more grid to fit heavy beams and the Navy Drake maybe -1 launcher but a 10% explosion radius bonus?

/me makes puppy eyes

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#197 - 2015-09-11 23:49:51 UTC
Is Caldari being the second most agile race a new thing? It seem to be so from these changes. I always thought it was supposed to be Gallente > Minmatar > Caldari > Amarr.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#198 - 2015-09-11 23:54:38 UTC
Really like most of these, they are about in line with where I view BCs ought to be.

That said, the mobility and role bonuses need to be applied to Command Ships as well. It makes sense to have a unified design for the battlecruiser hulls, they suffer from the same projection problems that the T1 and Navy versions do, and giving those bonuses to them would go a long way towards their seeing more widespread use.

There really is no reason not to have these apply to Command Ships as well, in my opinion.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#199 - 2015-09-11 23:59:02 UTC
Baali Tekitsu wrote:
All these buffs should also apply to command ships as they struggle with the same issues Combat battlecruisers do, just on a lesser scale as theyre flown less and are also a tiny bit better. If they do apply to command ships aswell, then sorry for posting this.

EDIT: the role bonus I mean and the agility buffs. Also the Absolution needs its optimal bonus finally.


I agree completely, I continued to ignore the Absolution because it lacked an Optimal Range Bonus. It desperately needs an Optimal Range bonus along with better cap recharge rates.

Also all the Command Ships need a 70% reduction in Medium Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay and a 100% bonus to Cap Boost Injected amount added to their Role Bonuses along with larger cargo bays.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#200 - 2015-09-12 00:00:48 UTC
Another call for this to continue onto the CS as well. We don't see CS everywhere, and their training time is actually in line with their ship class provided you don't use the worst remap for CS and the best for Marauders as your base line (Fixable by removing attributes anyway).