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[Vanguard] Combat and Navy BC Rebalance

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Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#161 - 2015-09-11 21:07:29 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
The kestrel, caracal and phoenix used to have a kinetic lock

Let's all pause for a moment and mourn the loss of interest in those ships since they became so much less interesting.


I dunno man, I seen a lot of Kestrels running around before the Tac destroyers came out. I still see Caracals all over the place, Especially after that amazing makeover they got.
unidenify
Deaf Armada
#162 - 2015-09-11 21:09:11 UTC
I just notice that Drake Navy issue while get nice boost, actual lost its range bonus.

Current Drake Navy issue have 10% per level for range, 50% when have max BC level.

new Drake navy issue only have 25%.

is it intended?
ArmyOfMe
African Atomic.
#163 - 2015-09-11 21:10:17 UTC
Cyclone still has **** dps, at least if u want to fit a tank as well.
So please look a bit more into that.

GM Guard > I must ask you not to use the petition option like this again but i personally would finish the chicken sandwich first so it won´t go to waste. The spaghetti will keep and you can use it the next time you get hungry. Best regards.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#164 - 2015-09-11 21:10:34 UTC
Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
The kestrel, caracal and phoenix used to have a kinetic lock

Let's all pause for a moment and mourn the loss of interest in those ships since they became so much less interesting.


I dunno man, I seen a lot of Kestrels running around before the Tac destroyers came out. I still see Caracals all over the place, Especially after that amazing makeover they got.



Wow you're completely correct, removing the kinetic lock doesn't make ships less interesting, it makes them actually useful and popular.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Darius Caliente
The Pinecone Squad
United Federation of Conifers
#165 - 2015-09-11 21:10:59 UTC
I'd really like to see the missile ships get a bonus to rapid lights as wells.
Alexis Nightwish
#166 - 2015-09-11 21:14:16 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
They just suck, particularly when the damage lock is on such a poor damage type, in fact arguably the worst damage type.


Just to play devil's advocate: if kinetic is the worst damage type, then if the Drake had a flat bonus then nobody would ever load Scourge, right? Why would you opt to fire into a resist wall?

So what the Kinetic "lock" actually does is counter the fact that so many ships have high kinetic resists, making Scourge a viable and even desirable option as ammunition.

This would be true if the kinetic damage bonus was much higher, and there was a lesser bonus to non-kinetic. However as it stands with all the kin locked ships, you can either fire kinetic and do meh damage due to high kinetic resists on everything not T1, or you can fire not kinetic and do crap damage due to having no bonus.

To me, missiles and drones have the advantage of being able to select a singular damage type, with the disadvantages of delayed damage (flight time till damage occurs) and weapon system destruction (missiles and drones can be destroyed). Now they've gone and removed that advantage and provided nothing in return.

Removing options is not good for any game, especially a sandbox. You can say that people can still choose to use different ammo, but it's just the illusion of choice and the result is a bunch of dudes running around only shooting scourge because there's really no other viable option.

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#167 - 2015-09-11 21:15:26 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
The kestrel, caracal and phoenix used to have a kinetic lock

Let's all pause for a moment and mourn the loss of interest in those ships since they became so much less interesting.


I dunno man, I seen a lot of Kestrels running around before the Tac destroyers came out. I still see Caracals all over the place, Especially after that amazing makeover they got.



Wow you're completely correct, removing the kinetic lock doesn't make ships less interesting, it makes them actually useful and popular.



Right after I hit post and realized I was talking to the king of setups and sarcasm. I face palmed.. contemplated editing and said screw it.. just take it like a real pilot.. He's either going get me.. or hit elsewhere :P It went elsewhere ... but damn it lol Must have New York blood in you
Ao Kishuba
Doomheim
#168 - 2015-09-11 21:15:52 UTC
If putting damage locks on missile ships is healthy, why aren't Minmatar ships damage locked?
Align Planet1
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#169 - 2015-09-11 21:20:25 UTC
Overall, I'm very happy with the direction. I do have two comments:

1. Every race except Caldari has an alternative weapon system that allows for damage type variation. Although I would greatly prefer missile damage bonuses to apply for all damage types on all missile ships -- Caldari or otherwise -- I would settle for a compromise that allowed Caldari missile ships to have the same bonus for thermal missiles that they get for kinetic missiles (on hulls where they are presently kinetic locked). That would allow at least some variation for counter-play, while giving Caldari boats the exclusive and somewhat interesting quirk of having a primary thermal damage weapon. And you'd still have Gallente armor ships as a reasonably direct counter, since they typically have equal kin/therm resists.

2. I would suggest that the second utility high on the Cyclone is more of a weakness than a strength of the hull. An extra launcher slot, or moving a high slot to a mid, would make the hull more versatile without breaking it.
Colonel Santiago
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#170 - 2015-09-11 21:24:08 UTC
+1 awesome changes
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#171 - 2015-09-11 21:28:59 UTC
CCP Fozzie, would you consider giving the Drake a 5% rate of fire bonus instead of the flat +10% kinetic damage bonus?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Gneeznow
Ship spinners inc
#172 - 2015-09-11 21:29:05 UTC
Cyclone could probably use a bit more . . . something

Maybe a bonus to rapid lights?
Maybe -1 low and +1 mid?
Some kind of built in capacitor safeguard for lower cap shield boosting?

Also not a fan of the Ferox changes, I would rather the 7 guns with shield resistances to be honest.

All in all though, cool set of changes for the most part.
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#173 - 2015-09-11 21:29:07 UTC
Ao Kishuba wrote:
If putting damage locks on missile ships is healthy, why aren't Minmatar ships damage locked?


Why isn't the Drone race the only race using drones?
Why isn't the Missile race the only race using missiles?

Multiple ship types are damage locked. Your just unhappy that the ones you fly are kinetic. You still HAVE the option of changing damage type against what its bonused For. It's not FORCED on you. Your weapon system is not locked. Your ship is not locked. You have the option of changing at your will. It's just Bonused towards it. You feel you are locked in because of the Bonus. Plenty of times tho I have changed ammo off of Bonused ammo to get better hits on something. You just need to know when to cycle ammo.

Hybrid ships are Locked Damage type. No way to change it.
Lazors are Locked Damage type. It EM/thermal.. no matter how much you stare at it.

Hell you want to see some fun, everyone tanks high EM/therm/Kinetic. This covers most of the races. Some will get the Explosive tanked high also. Run around with nova ammo even on a Kinetic bonused ship, watch the fun because someone thinks your going to be firing scourge and tanks high kinetic.
Hengle Teron
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#174 - 2015-09-11 21:29:45 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Hengle Teron wrote:
Funny, but the navy Cane is the only ship getting decreased base damage.


Barely, it has 2x5% bonuses today, vs 1x10% tomorrow.

No, it has dps of 10 turrets today and 9 turrets tomorrow.
Lucas Quaan
DEMONS OF THE HIDDEN MIST
TRUTH. HONOUR. LIGHT.
#175 - 2015-09-11 21:31:49 UTC
Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:
Here's an idea: give the medium micro jump drive a bonus to targeting range while active.
Right now MMJD is only usable as a defensive module except for the buffer tanked Myrmidon, Gnosis and N. Harbinger which can afford to sacrifice their 5th midslot for a sensor booster. This would allow battlecruisers to start locking as they spool up their MMJD which would make them a real threat to kiting ships which is very useful and much needed.

This is a really cool idea worth looking at. It would also work well on the BS version.
Bakuhz
NED-Clan
Goonswarm Federation
#176 - 2015-09-11 21:44:33 UTC
Destoya wrote:
This flat 12.5% drone velocity bonus on the Proph and Myrm is a little strange in my opinion. Was there any consideration made to it being something like 10% speed, 10% tracking? I have concerns that increasing the drone speed without increasing tracking as well will cause the drones to miss more often against small targets, and against heavier targets the drone speed bonus is hardly worth considering.

I know sentry drone tracking is something that you are pretty wary about giving out after the Domi and Ishtar but I hardly think a small flat bonus would break these two ships in the sentry role.


it's their MW speed so jsut the closing speed their orbits should stay the same

https://zkillboard.com/character/584042527/
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#177 - 2015-09-11 21:49:45 UTC
Hengle Teron wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Hengle Teron wrote:
Funny, but the navy Cane is the only ship getting decreased base damage.


Barely, it has 2x5% bonuses today, vs 1x10% tomorrow.

No, it has dps of 10 turrets today and 9 turrets tomorrow.



So...barely then.

And the applied damage bonuses will likely make up for it by allowing more dmaage further out to faster targets. There is more to eve than paper.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#178 - 2015-09-11 21:57:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
I'd like to see more agility or warp speed increases across the board as that I believe is what is lacking at the moment in terms of actual practical combat use.

Also I'd find a tracking bonus far more useful on a lot of those ships rather than the optimal/falloff bonus. This optimal/falloff bonus doesn't seem right, it is a blanket buff across the whole class which benefits some ships a lot more than others.

Also the Ferox seems like it will be too powerful with these changes in a sniping setup. One of the key drawbacks of battlecruisers over battleships is that the battlecruiser cannot MJD away from a target and maintain its lock and weapon range except for the myrmidon and prophechy which are both drone boats so their drones continue to attack whether they have lock or not.

I'd suggest having another look at the Ferox, perhaps change one of the bonuses to a tracking bonus so it doesn't become a better sniping ship than a tier 3 BC or Battleship.

Also the Ferox is more agile than the Hurricane? Surely that is a mistake. Someone must love Ferox's at CCP as you have definitely overdone its buffs there.
Mixu Paatelainen
Eve Refinery
#179 - 2015-09-11 21:57:12 UTC
Very interesting changes. Please make them warp a bit faster though, it's the one thing we gripe about more than any other shortcoming.
Xavier Thorm
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#180 - 2015-09-11 21:58:31 UTC
Overall these changes look very good. I think Heavy Missiles and HAMs could still use a small buff to base application outside of the balancing for various hulls, but that's probably best in a different thread. The rest of my thoughts have already been addressed by others, so I'm just going to throw out a list of things I'm seconding.

Seconding the idea that 10% bonus + kinetic lock on the Drake is too penalizing. 5% bonus to other damage types would keep the incentive to fire scourge, while reasonably allowing ammunition switching to shoot resist holes.

Seconding that all BCs could still use a small buff to lock range. Back-of-the-napkin math suggests that, with the new bonuses, a max-skilled Drake will be able to shoot farther than it can lock by default (sans links, drugs, etc.). I do not think this is a desirable outcome.

Seconding that the drone velocity bonus for the Proph/Myrm should be clarified as a drone MWD bonus. (This should probably also be changed on any other ships/mods that still list it as a "veolcity bonus" for the sake of clarity.) I think the bonus itself is probably fine, drones are never going to act exactly parallel to other weapon systems, and the Myrm and Proph can still fit other (nonbonused) weapon systems so we wouldn't want to risk overbuffing them.

Seconding the request for a bit of a cargo bay increase for those ships with active rep bonuses, for holding additional charges.