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[Vanguard] Combat and Navy BC Rebalance

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Leonardo Adami
Doomheim
#121 - 2015-09-11 19:24:22 UTC
Yay lets increase speed but add mass...woot Roll
Bap1811
Shiva
Northern Coalition.
#122 - 2015-09-11 19:24:56 UTC
Have you guys looked at giving the cyclone/drake an application bonus rather than a range one?
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#123 - 2015-09-11 19:26:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Bronson Hughes
Evai Tsuki wrote:
I'm a little baffled that the prophecy still has only 75 bandwidth, but other than that these changes look great.

If you ignore the Ishtar and battleships for a moment, Amarr drone boats tend to have larger bays and lower bandwidth compared to their Gallente counterparts. They do better in a long, sustained fight, where endurance matters and Gallente do better in a short fight where burst DPS matters. The VNI is a perfect example of this, albeit one without an Amarr counterpart: max bandwidth, barely enough drone bay to handle any spares.

The 'Geddon and Domi both get max bandwidth and big bays I guess because they're battleships, and the Ishtar...well it's the Ishtar. Ugh

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#124 - 2015-09-11 19:27:31 UTC
"I know some players will be dissapointed that the damage bonus continues to be restricted to kinetic, but we do believe that damage specific bonuses are a useful tool for creating interesting distinctions between ships and we have no plans to phase them out."

Yeah no, I'm sorry but this is just bullshit. Damage specific bonuses aren't a "useful tool".

No they're not.

They just suck, particularly when the damage lock is on such a poor damage type, in fact arguably the worst damage type.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#125 - 2015-09-11 19:29:50 UTC
Leonardo Adami wrote:
Yay lets increase speed but add mass...woot Roll

Adding mass and improving agility, assuming its done right, means you are just as agile as you were before and adding extra mass (i.e. plates) has less of an impact on you. It looks like they buffed the agility along with the mass increases, so let's see if this holds out.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Jamir Von Lietuva
Nameless Minions
GaNg BaNg TeAm
#126 - 2015-09-11 19:32:41 UTC
Give Cyclone and Drake Light missile damage bonus - let hilarity ensue
Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#127 - 2015-09-11 19:33:14 UTC
My Ferox already has a dps of 750 before... That extra 0.5 turret is going to be interesting... Plus the extra range for my blasters.
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#128 - 2015-09-11 19:34:15 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
"I know some players will be dissapointed that the damage bonus continues to be restricted to kinetic, but we do believe that damage specific bonuses are a useful tool for creating interesting distinctions between ships and we have no plans to phase them out."

Yeah no, I'm sorry but this is just bullshit. Damage specific bonuses aren't a "useful tool".

No they're not.

They just suck, particularly when the damage lock is on such a poor damage type, in fact arguably the worst damage type.


Of course they suck, thats the point of them. You get pseudo damage selection - this creates a meta game (extra kin hardners and the like) and it keeps missiles in check. Non single damage type bonused missile ships are a mistake.
Ao Kishuba
Doomheim
#129 - 2015-09-11 19:35:56 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
"I know some players will be dissapointed that the damage bonus continues to be restricted to kinetic, but we do believe that damage specific bonuses are a useful tool for creating interesting distinctions between ships and we have no plans to phase them out."

Yeah no, I'm sorry but this is just bullshit. Damage specific bonuses aren't a "useful tool".

No they're not.

They just suck, particularly when the damage lock is on such a poor damage type, in fact arguably the worst damage type.


Of course they suck, thats the point of them. You get pseudo damage selection - this creates a meta game (extra kin hardners and the like) and it keeps missiles in check. Non single damage type bonused missile ships are a mistake.


So, the Sacrelige, the amarr intecreptor, the Damnation, and every Minmatar missile ship except the Talwar?
Kasia en Tilavine
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#130 - 2015-09-11 19:38:06 UTC
Holy ******* ****.

Backflip slam dunk Fozzie. Pull something like this on the assault frigs and you will be back to being my favorite Dev. (Karkur stole it with the ghost fitting tease at the AT)

One small concern... 25% doesn't seem like a whole lot.... its nice. But the dessies get a 50% bonus. I understand that cruiser size guns get better base projection, but the BC engagement window compared to the cruiser engagement window will now be bigger, but the cruiser window will be 4/5 the size. It will definitely be noticeable, but not in nearly the same margin as dessies to frigs.

33% maybe? pls?
Kynric
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#131 - 2015-09-11 19:40:01 UTC
Please look at the Cyclones powergrid/CPU. They are tight to the point that I often have 1-2 empty highslots (or filled with offline modules such as a probe launcher) and 1-2 nanohulls which are there not because I teally want them but because the fittings wont support much else. The tightness of the fit on the cyclone is mych more like a t2 ship than the flexibility found on t1 hulls. It would be a much more attractive option if it had more generous fittings.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#132 - 2015-09-11 19:41:03 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
"I know some players will be dissapointed that the damage bonus continues to be restricted to kinetic, but we do believe that damage specific bonuses are a useful tool for creating interesting distinctions between ships and we have no plans to phase them out."

Yeah no, I'm sorry but this is just bullshit. Damage specific bonuses aren't a "useful tool".

No they're not.

They just suck, particularly when the damage lock is on such a poor damage type, in fact arguably the worst damage type.


He meant a useful tool for the devs to differentiate ships, not for the players.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#133 - 2015-09-11 19:44:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Lucius Exitius wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Rename Missiles skills to kinetic damage skills. FFS non missiles races are better in missiles than Caldari. If you want to keep kinetic lock on Caldari, make Minmatars missiles boats - explosions lock, an Amarr EM lock. That would be interesting distinction, don't you think? You are denying your own missiles philosphy - selectable damage.

I do not understand the ruckus about the Kinetic damage bonus. The difference on a Cerb with 3 BCU between CN Scourge and CN Mjolnir is 90 DPS. Considering that some races have extremely high Kinetic resistances, they can reduce your applied kinetic DPS and if you chose another damage type, you can apply more DPS.


You can say the same thing about projectiles or other hulls that don't get the lock. Except they aren't limited. Why do it for certain missile boats but not projectiles or other boats outside of Caldari...

Every Amarr laser ship (Amarr, not Khanid) is locked to EM/Therm. They do not even have the ability to use different damage classes. Every Gallente Hybrid ship is limited to THERM/KIN, with no way to have another primary damage source.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Lucius Exitius
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#134 - 2015-09-11 19:47:00 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Lucius Exitius wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Rename Missiles skills to kinetic damage skills. FFS non missiles races are better in missiles than Caldari. If you want to keep kinetic lock on Caldari, make Minmatars missiles boats - explosions lock, an Amarr EM lock. That would be interesting distinction, don't you think? You are denying your own missiles philosphy - selectable damage.

I do not understand the ruckus about the Kinetic damage bonus. The difference on a Cerb with 3 BCU between CN Scourge and CN Mjolnir is 90 DPS. Considering that some races have extremely high Kinetic resistances, they can reduce your applied kinetic DPS and if you chose another damage type, you can apply more DPS.


You can say the same thing about projectiles or other hulls that don't get the lock. Except they aren't limited. Why do it for certain missile boats but not projectiles or other boats outside of Caldari...

Every Amarr laser ship (Amarr, not Khanid) is locked to EM/Therm. They do not even have the ability to use different damage classes. Every Gallente Hybrid ship is limited to THERM/KIN, with no way to have another primary damage source.


Okay your point? Projectiles have selectable damage, amarr missile boats arent locked in, minmatar missile boats arent locked in, why are Caldaris?
Ao Kishuba
Doomheim
#135 - 2015-09-11 19:47:28 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Lucius Exitius wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Rename Missiles skills to kinetic damage skills. FFS non missiles races are better in missiles than Caldari. If you want to keep kinetic lock on Caldari, make Minmatars missiles boats - explosions lock, an Amarr EM lock. That would be interesting distinction, don't you think? You are denying your own missiles philosphy - selectable damage.

I do not understand the ruckus about the Kinetic damage bonus. The difference on a Cerb with 3 BCU between CN Scourge and CN Mjolnir is 90 DPS. Considering that some races have extremely high Kinetic resistances, they can reduce your applied kinetic DPS and if you chose another damage type, you can apply more DPS.


You can say the same thing about projectiles or other hulls that don't get the lock. Except they aren't limited. Why do it for certain missile boats but not projectiles or other boats outside of Caldari...

Every Amarr laser ship (Amarr, not Khanid) is locked to EM/Therm. They do not even have the ability to use different damage classes. Every Gallente Hybrid ship is limited to THERM/KIN, with no way to have another primary damage source.


Yeah, and every Amarr droneboat and missile boat can select damage type, and every Gallente droneboat can select damage type, and every minmatar ship except the Hound and the Talwar can select damage type.

Caldari have a couple missile ships that can select damage type... the rest are locked, and mostly through botched racial bonuses, and this is why we're all so frustrated by this.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#136 - 2015-09-11 19:52:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
I find it questionable to compare the Caldari ships to Khanid ships. Khanid ships can use all 4 damage types, but are limited to short range missile launchers, ie. HAM and Rockets, they cannot project damage further than 30 km in case of the Sacrilege. Caldari missile hulls can all use long-range missiles and project their damage a lot further than them, which makes a comparison hard.

I am in particular not talking about drone boats, but turret boats. Roll

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Ao Kishuba
Doomheim
#137 - 2015-09-11 19:54:51 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
I find it questionable to compare the Caldari ships to Khanid ships. Khanid ships can use all 4 damage types, but are limited to short range missile launchers, ie. HAM and Rockets, they cannot project damage further than 30 km in case of the Sacrilege. Caldari missile hulls can all use long-range missiles and project their damage a lot further than them, which makes a comparison hard.

I am in particular not talking about drone boats, but turret boats. Roll


So three of the ship are disputed... Amarr still have plenty of droneboats, which can select damage types.
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#138 - 2015-09-11 19:54:52 UTC
Ao Kishuba wrote:
[quote=CCP Fozzie]
I know some players will be dissapointed that the damage bonus continues to be restricted to kinetic, but we do believe that damage specific bonuses are a useful tool for creating interesting distinctions between ships and we have no plans to phase them out.[/i]

Then why aren't Gallente drones damage locked? Or Amarr drones? Or Minmatar missiles or projectiles? Why is Caldari the only race with an artificial damage lock on a weapon system which should otherwise be free to use any damage type?


What?! .................... Damage types of Existing weapon systems and what damage type they are locked to.

Gallente Drones - Thermal
Amarr Drones - EM
Caldari Drones - Kinetic
Minmitar Drones - Explosive
Gecko - Universal

Hybrid weapons: Kinetic/Thermal
Lazors: EM/thermal

Projectiles - Damage type varies, DPS changes based on range with nerfs with penalties hitting certain areas, certain damage applying differently to Shields or Armor.
Nuclear, Lead, Proton - Range Bonus 60% , tracking Speed Mult 1.05x
Titanium, Uranium - Tracking Speed Mult 1.2x
Fusion, Plasma, Emp - Range bonus -50% Tracking speed Mult 1x

Missiles:
Scourge: Kinetic
Inferno: Thermal
Nova: Explosive
Mjolnir: EM

Ship types Locked into Damage Types:
Any Hybrid Turret Boat is Locked into firing thermal/Kinetic
Any Laser Boat is locked into firing EM/Thermal
SOME Caldari missile boats are locked into Kinetic
Projectile boats can change Damage types while having to remember each penalty for each ammo type as well as which two damage types that ammo type did, range it worked at and if it worked better against shields or Armor for each combat situation they are getting into.

Some of Caldari ships are Kinetic locked? While except for Projectiles and Drones(almost every ship today has them.. no longer a gallente thing..) every other weapon type has locked damage.


Ao Kishuba
Doomheim
#139 - 2015-09-11 19:59:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Ao Kishuba
Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:
Ao Kishuba wrote:
[quote=CCP Fozzie]
I know some players will be dissapointed that the damage bonus continues to be restricted to kinetic, but we do believe that damage specific bonuses are a useful tool for creating interesting distinctions between ships and we have no plans to phase them out.[/i]

Then why aren't Gallente drones damage locked? Or Amarr drones? Or Minmatar missiles or projectiles? Why is Caldari the only race with an artificial damage lock on a weapon system which should otherwise be free to use any damage type?


What?! .................... Damage types of Existing weapon systems and what damage type they are locked to.

Gallente Drones - Thermal
Amarr Drones - EM
Caldari Drones - Kinetic
Minmitar Drones - Explosive
Gecko - Universal

Some of Caldari ships are Kinetic locked? While except for Projectiles and Drones(almost every ship today has them.. no longer a gallente thing..) every other weapon type has locked damage.




Not sure why you listed different racial drones... every bonused drone ship gets a bonus to all drones (some are restricted to a size of drone, but never to a damage type or race), so listing separate racial drones is like listing different missile types and saying "See? It's damage locked".

There is a difference between "My battleship has 50mbit/s of bandwidth and is bonused for missiles" and "My cruiser can field a flight of sentries and gets several bonuses use them". I'm talking about main weapon systems, not utility drones.

edit: and again, you've missed that every non-Caldari missile ship in the game (with the exception of the Talwar) is not damage locked. Caldari are the only race without a selectable-damage main weapon system in every ship class.
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#140 - 2015-09-11 20:02:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Tikktokk Tokkzikk
Here's an idea: give the medium micro jump drive a bonus to targeting range while active.
Right now MMJD is only usable as a defensive module except for the buffer tanked Myrmidon, Gnosis and N. Harbinger which can afford to sacrifice their 5th midslot for a sensor booster. This would allow battlecruisers to start locking as they spool up their MMJD which would make them a real threat to kiting ships which is very useful and much needed.

EDIT: alternatively buff battlecruier lock range up to current battleship lock range and give battleships a much needed lock range buff.