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Decline in numbers... starting to turn into RAPID!!!

First post
Author
Paranoid Loyd
#1321 - 2015-09-04 18:17:57 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Wrong. Pay attention next time.
Nice proof bro. Go me @ quotes.

The proof is in the part you cut out of the quote, why don't you respond to that.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1322 - 2015-09-04 18:19:33 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
blublublublub

Answer the question:

“EVE Online is essentially a PvP (Player versus Player) game at its core.”
“[O]nce you enter New Eden you must consider every action you take as a form of PvP since this is the core game concept.”
“The essential core concept of EVE Online is that it is full time PvP in a sandbox environment.”
“[T]here are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided.”

This is how CCP describes EVE. Why are you so adamantly against letting prospective players know this? Why should this nature be made abundantly clear in the pitch? Why would you even mention something that is wholly subordinate to this one core defining characteristic?
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#1323 - 2015-09-04 18:24:20 UTC
M'Hael wrote:


"I trained for a t2 cruiser, and it was just horrible long. Then I found out that I hated flying the ship, and I just gave up. No way was i going to spend months training into another ship, and maybe figure out if that ship suited me. It simply made me quit the game."

Quote from a newer player.


oh well i guess he just thought the skills only unlocked 1 ship, how silly of him to not think of the short train to fly things like recons, t3's and battlecruisers and faction cruisers. if he got that far and didnt think it was worth it then maybe not the right game for him

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Salvos Rhoska
#1324 - 2015-09-04 18:25:21 UTC
M'Hael wrote:


"I trained for a t2 cruiser, and it was just horrible long. Then I found out that I hated flying the ship, and I just gave up. No way was i going to spend months training into another ship, and maybe figure out if that ship suited me. It simply made me quit the game."

Quote from a newer player.

Another good example of how false expectations cause undue dissappointment, when faced with EVE reality.

Having said that:
I also was dissappointed after my training into Muninn/Vagabond, for the purposes I had envisaged.
But I didnt quit the game.
Instead I stubbornly started training into Loki, and again was dissappointed towards the purposes I had envisaged!
Bah!

Tough ****.

Its not the games fault.
Its my own for not having researched enough.
But nonetheless, I can fly these ships now and for future use.
So the investment in time was not altogether wasted.

Hoping Ive done my homework properly on my next ship choice...
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1325 - 2015-09-04 18:42:26 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Wrong. Pay attention next time.
Nice proof bro. Go me @ quotes.

The proof is in the part you cut out of the quote, why don't you respond to that.
Are you sure? Go back and read it again. Tell me if there was proof in there that skillbooks increase in price when they are bought.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1326 - 2015-09-04 18:44:58 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
blublublublub

Answer the question:

“EVE Online is essentially a PvP (Player versus Player) game at its core.”
“[O]nce you enter New Eden you must consider every action you take as a form of PvP since this is the core game concept.”
“The essential core concept of EVE Online is that it is full time PvP in a sandbox environment.”
“[T]here are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided.”

This is how CCP describes EVE. Why are you so adamantly against letting prospective players know this? Why should this nature be made abundantly clear in the pitch? Why would you even mention something that is wholly subordinate to this one core defining characteristic?
I'm not, I'm just not in favour of simply stating "it's a PvP game" like you are, as if that's all the game is. It has significantly more to it than that which CCP state within the very pages you lifted those quotes from. And let's not forget, those quotes aren't the first thing they see, the homepage is, which doesn't anywhere state "EVE is a PvP Game".

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1327 - 2015-09-04 18:54:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
M'Hael wrote:


"I trained for a t2 cruiser, and it was just horrible long. Then I found out that I hated flying the ship, and I just gave up. No way was i going to spend months training into another ship, and maybe figure out if that ship suited me. It simply made me quit the game."

Quote from a newer player.


That is our fault. We push that such and such needed for pvp. Hacs, etc.

I teach new players low sp plans to give them an access to all sorts of T1 fitting. I always say avoid T2 til you know you want to fly it. Anything T2 can be done for the most part in T1 hulls and fits. Players broke and made the meta and force an elitist style.

Edit: My first T2 was logi and hacs only cause I wanted commships. And that I knew I wanted from command fit bcs and T1 logi.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1328 - 2015-09-04 18:56:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Lucas Kell wrote:

I'm not, I'm just not in favour of simply stating "it's a PvP game" like you are, as if that's all the game is.

But it is the core design element of the game — if someone goes all hot potato at the mention of this fact, then adding in “…and also PvE” just gives them false hope and doesn't actually add any deeper or more rounded understanding of the game. At the end of the day, that “PvE” is also a form of PvP, and the PvP that made them wince will still be there, as unavoidable as ever.

So it seems like a very good filter for prospective players, and a good starting point for anyone you just want to explain the game to. Because once you add in all the conditionals and prerequisites, you end up in the same place: everything is PvP in one way or another. Getting bogged down in an relatively minute detail that you just have to add “…but this is also PvP” at the end of becomes a rather pointless tangent to the overall need to describe the many forms in which PvP manifests itself.

If you want to categorise the gameplay EVE offers, variants of PvP are far more telling than “PvP” and “fake-PvE that is actually also PvP.” If you want to describe the dynamic of the game, it's entirely PvP-centric since it revolves around the destruction-production-market dynamic, which is PvP at every step of the way. If you want to categorise the gameplay according to aesthetics, then PvE is not even an option (but then, neither is PvP at that point).

Quote:
And let's not forget, those quotes aren't the first thing they see, the homepage is, which doesn't anywhere state "EVE is a PvP Game".
That is indeed a problem, and probably something they should think about adding. However, that omission on the front page does not change what the game actually is nor what CCP then goes on to describe it as.
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#1329 - 2015-09-04 18:56:07 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
blublublublub
Why are you so adamantly against letting prospective players know this? Why should this nature be made abundantly clear in the pitch? Why would you even mention something that is wholly subordinate to this one core defining characteristic?
I'm not, I'm just not in favour of simply stating "it's a PvP game" like you are,


How about Sandbox PvP game ... that way it's more then just a PvP game.

Or, it's not a game, it's
- a lifestyle
- a creed
- an addiction
- real ..... (hehe, get it ? EvE is real )
- love
- refined carebear tears
- griefer's heaven
- love, peace and harmony
- drama
- ....

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1330 - 2015-09-04 18:58:30 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
blublublublub

Answer the question:

“EVE Online is essentially a PvP (Player versus Player) game at its core.”
“[O]nce you enter New Eden you must consider every action you take as a form of PvP since this is the core game concept.”
“The essential core concept of EVE Online is that it is full time PvP in a sandbox environment.”
“[T]here are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided.”

This is how CCP describes EVE. Why are you so adamantly against letting prospective players know this? Why should this nature be made abundantly clear in the pitch? Why would you even mention something that is wholly subordinate to this one core defining characteristic?
I'm not, I'm just not in favour of simply stating "it's a PvP game" like you are, as if that's all the game is. It has significantly more to it than that which CCP state within the very pages you lifted those quotes from. And let's not forget, those quotes aren't the first thing they see, the homepage is, which doesn't anywhere state "EVE is a PvP Game".


So you don't understand that the problem here is your narrow definition of pvp, not what Tip is saying.Why is it hard to understand that PVP is at the core of the game. No one said anything about "all there is". Just like a twinky has cream at it's center, that's not all there is to it (but without that creak all you got is a dry husk lol).

Rather than arguing silly semantics like you always do, it would be more personally profitable to take a look at yourself and ask why you always end up in these kinds of circle jerks (and while you are at it, examine why you always deny easily observable truths while you are in there). The 1st step is admitting you have a problem.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1331 - 2015-09-04 19:01:45 UTC
Tippia wrote:
But it is the core design element of the game — if someone goes all hot potato at the mention of this fact, then adding in “…and also PvE” just gives them false hope. At the end of the day, that “PvE” is also a form of PvP, and the PvP that made them wince will still be there, as unavoidable as ever.

So it seems like a very good filter for prospective players, and a good starting point for anyone you just want to explain the game to. Because once you add in all the conditionals and prerequisites, you end up in the same place: everything is PvP in one way or another. Getting bogged down in an relatively minute detail that you just have to add “…but this is also PvP” at the end of becomes a rather pointless tangent to the overall need to describe the many forms in which PvP manifests itself.

If you want to categorise the gameplay EVE offers, variants of PvP are far more telling than “PvP” and “fake-PvE that is actually also PvP.” If you want to describe the dynamic of the game, it's entirely PvP-centric since it revolves around the destruction-production-market dynamic, which is PvP at every step of the way. If you want to categorise the gameplay according to aesthetics, then PvE is not even an option (but then, neither is PvP at that point).
Oh for christ's sake I don't care. You win. happy? Proceed to describe EVE in such simple terms that they assume it's world of tanks in space, and I'll continue to describe it as a sandbox with a multitude of playstyles and mechanics.

Tippia wrote:
That is indeed a problem, and probably something they should think about adding. However, that omission on the front page does not change what the game actually is nor what CCP then goes on to describe it as.
Except you're endlessly going on that those are the first words they should see. So go apply for a job in CCPs marketing department and do it. To be fully honest, the first words they should see are "EVE Online is a toxic community full of arrogant social retards that will endlessly go on about how much better they are than players of any other games, while the population continues to drop".

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1332 - 2015-09-04 19:04:08 UTC
Jill Xelitras wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
blublublublub
Why are you so adamantly against letting prospective players know this? Why should this nature be made abundantly clear in the pitch? Why would you even mention something that is wholly subordinate to this one core defining characteristic?
I'm not, I'm just not in favour of simply stating "it's a PvP game" like you are,
How about Sandbox PvP game ... that way it's more then just a PvP game.

Or, it's not a game, it's
- a lifestyle
- a creed
- an addiction
- real ..... (hehe, get it ? EvE is real )
- love
- refined carebear tears
- griefer's heaven
- love, peace and harmony
- drama
- ....
I seriously don't care. I'm now at home and the absolute last thing I want to have an endless debate about what to call a dying game. I'm gonna have a beer, do some trading, maybe some PvE that doesn't exist and watch a movie.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1333 - 2015-09-04 19:04:56 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Proceed to describe EVE in such simple terms that they assume it's world of tanks in space, and I'll continue to describe it as a sandbox with a multitude of playstyles and mechanics.
I will, and since I can explain it in terms such that they have no reason to assume it's WoT in space, they'll come away from my explanation far more informed about what the game is than what you'll manage.

Quote:
Except you're endlessly going on that those are the first words they should see.
No, you're once again confusing me with someone else. At least it's not yourself this time.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1334 - 2015-09-04 19:07:07 UTC
I need to get sisi working. We need to put together a new player vid that is a default with starting Eve. How would I do it?

Before that first undock and start up, ask a question.

Welcome to New Eden.

This rich and propserous galaxy offers much to new pilots but most of it is still a wild and untamed frontier.

We have an orientation video which can show a small sample of some of the opportunities, risks, and rewards you might encounter in your time in space.

Would you care to watch (note this can be viewed later, blah blah)

Yes. No.


Then a video that is like five minutes that goes from mining and ganks to full on sov. Make it clear from start that even the most mundane pve can have risks. Miners tank more, people more confident because from first undock, they are on their toes. Stuff all us community based Vets tell rookies to ensure they have a good time.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#1335 - 2015-09-04 19:07:38 UTC
post 1332

High five everyone who's left.

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1336 - 2015-09-04 19:07:53 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
So you don't understand that the problem here is your narrow definition of pvp, not what Tip is saying.Why is it hard to understand that PVP is at the core of the game. No one said anything about "all there is". Just like a twinky has cream at it's center, that's not all there is to it (but without that creak all you got is a dry husk lol).
I understand that the problem is the average gamer's definition of PvP. I know PvP means more than that, you know it too, but someone who doesn't play EVE won't know that we've decided to extend the definition.

Jenn aSide wrote:
Rather than arguing silly semantics like you always do, it would be more personally profitable to take a look at yourself and ask why you always end up in these kinds of circle jerks (and while you are at it, examine why you always deny easily observable truths while you are in there). The 1st step is admitting you have a problem.
I know why, it's because nobody including myself is generally willing to even remotely back down from their side of a debate. They get more and more dead set that they are right and other people are wrong that they won't budge. Worse, it's not even good enough if the other person walks away, they need to feel like they've defeated their opponent.

Well now it's done. I concede, Tippia wins.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1337 - 2015-09-04 19:21:21 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
I understand that the problem is the average gamer's definition of PvP. I know PvP means more than that, you know it too, but someone who doesn't play EVE won't know that we've decided to extend the definition.


So you try to make it about other people. "I'm jsut being childish and needlessly obstinate because will someone on think of the god damn children!?!?" lol.

Quote:
I know why, it's because nobody including myself is generally willing to even remotely back down from their side of a debate. They get more and more dead set that they are right and other people are wrong that they won't budge. Worse, it's not even good enough if the other person walks away, they need to feel like they've defeated their opponent.

Well now it's done. I concede, Tippia wins.


You don't need to concede, Tippia Beat the crap out of you (with science) 17 pages ago, your surrender is simply a formality Twisted

But more seriously, talking directly to you, does it never cross your mind that there may be a problem with how you think about things (or what your motives behind those thoughts are) when you are in the middle of this mindless circle jerk bullshit? You're a smart (if misguided) fellow, and it would do all of us here in this little community (mainly you) a great deal of good if you could put the breaks on that 'nit-picky contrarian' crap a little bit.

If i can do it you can, notice that i don't go for 17 pages of BS anymore, I stop and a good 5 or 6 lol.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1338 - 2015-09-04 19:23:23 UTC
Maybe people are quitting because they're sick to ******* death of reading The Same Six People Turning Everything Into Yet Another Unbearably Tedious And Unproductive "Bears vs Gankers" Thread Number Eighteen Thousand Two Hundred And Fifty ******* Seven.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#1339 - 2015-09-04 19:24:59 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Maybe people are quitting because they're sick to ******* death of reading The Same Six People Turning Everything Into Yet Another Unbearably Tedious And Unproductive "Bears vs Gankers" Thread Number Eighteen Thousand Two Hundred And Fifty ******* Seven.



All hail, Malcanis.


Gankers and true bears are still a small minority in the game. Each side thinks the other IS the game.

It does get tedious.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1340 - 2015-09-04 19:26:52 UTC
🍸🍓