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Decline in numbers... starting to turn into RAPID!!!

First post
Author
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1261 - 2015-09-04 14:32:09 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
The thing is, this is how a lot of people see PvP, that it's one player killing another. Saying that EVE is entirely PvP undersells it since there's a huge variety of activities to take part in.

…and underell or no, it's still the most accurate description of the game you can muster. if you feel the need to correct their assumption that PvP ≡ PK, then do so, but that doesn't change how apt the PvP description is for EVE.

Correcting that view also provides a good starting point for describing the variations of PvP that EVE has to offer.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1262 - 2015-09-04 14:32:17 UTC
Tippia wrote:
What happens to the NPC prices in EVE when you buy from them? Who is subject to these prices?
Nothing, everyone.
Tippia wrote:
What happens to the NPC prices in WoW when you buy from them? Who is subject to these prices?
Nothing, everyone.

Tippia wrote:
It still can be done, and it still gets you somewhere. Gathering up the largest pile of useless NPC trash in EVE gets you nowhere and it still affects other players. Also, as mentioned, you will soon be subject to PvP while trying to get that ISK anwyay…
I don't believe it can. If somehow you could get going only using instanced content, all your could hope to do in WoW is build up a cache of stuff and level up. In EVE, the levelling up you don't even need to log on for, and the small cache of stuff can also be fetched entirely from rerunnning those missions. So I maintain that you could achieve the same in both.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#1263 - 2015-09-04 14:33:14 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
I'd agree with the newbie systems thing if not for the fact that the ships and ammo and drones, etc. needed to run missions or mine or do most of anything are still sold by.... players! Also you can't get a lot of the skills needed to manufacture a lot of what you'll need without leaving the newbie systems.
You are provided all you need when you start the game, including guns that require no ammo.

Anize Oramara wrote:
Manufacturing itself as well is affected by other people in many ways (indexes, available slots, mineral costs, BPCs).

Oh right research to get BPCs form BPOs, again, means competing with other players for slots, or pos locations, etc.
There are no slots in manufacturing, but then again, who said you need to manufacture or copy or research anything? A player could play the game purely to build up a collection of NPC bought goods in the NPC station.

And I know what you'll say, that's very unlikely. Yeah, about as unlikely as a WoW player having no interaction with other players, markets and non-instanced content while playing WoW.


So now playstyle preference defines the whole game ?

So ... just because I, Jill, am currently just subbed to retain forum posting privileges, EvE is merely a BB with no PvE or PvP whatsoever ?

Must be so.

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.

Buoytender Bob
Ronin Exploration Mission and Mining
#1264 - 2015-09-04 14:33:53 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
That doesn't mean that an overly broad term can't be used to describe both EVE and WOW however.


Its not overly broad.


Read the following:

"Player(s) versus player(s), or , is a type of multiplayer interactive conflict within a game between two or more live participants. This is in contrast to games where players compete against computer controlled opponents and/or players, which is correspondingly referred to as player versus environment (PvE)."

-https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_versus_player


This, in precise terms, defines PvP, and its unique characteristics as separate from PvE.

If anything involves two or more live participants in interactive (which all of EVE is) conflict (which I can append a definition to, if you are unfamiliar with it) , it is PvP.

By contrast, if it does NOT meet the criteria of the above, and is against a computer controlled opponent, then and only then is it PvE.


so whats killing afk players classed as?




Removing stupidity and laziness?

To buck the popular trend, I began to Rage Start instead of Rage Quit.

...and every time I get another piece of Carbon, I know exactly what CCP is getting this Christmas.

Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#1265 - 2015-09-04 14:35:54 UTC
Is linking to TvTropes a bannable offense? J/K Lol

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlayerKilling

Interestingly enough there is not a single mention of Eve online in that article!

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1266 - 2015-09-04 14:35:56 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:


so whats killing afk players classed as?


Did it take a player to log in the toon that is now afk? If so: pvp.


nah im not buying it, someone switched on the tranquility server and programmed npc's but that doesnt mean shooting an npc is pvp.

Im just mostly trolling here now just sayin

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

babyblue
Solo Sovereignty
#1267 - 2015-09-04 14:36:52 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:

Part of the problem is people who are more focused on complaining and semantics than offering up constructive solutions and ideas.


This makes no sense to me. Why would people who are subbed and play Eve have anything to say about getting people who aren't to subscribe? If the idea is to recruit and retain players, why isn't the CSM almost entirely composed of people who don't play the game? Surely you'll get more insight in 5 minutes with them than you will with 5 hours talking to bittervets?
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1268 - 2015-09-04 14:37:03 UTC
Tippia wrote:
…and underell or no, it's still the most accurate description of the game you can muster.
No it's not. I'd say EVE is a diverse sandbox with interspersed PvE and PvP mechanics. To say it's just PvP makes is sound like it's World of Tanks in space.

Jill Xelitras wrote:
So now playstyle preference defines the whole game ?

So ... just because I, Jill, am currently just subbed to retain forum posting privileges, EvE is merely a BB with no PvE or PvP whatsoever ?

Must be so.
No, I'm simply pointing out that claims that WoW can be played completely solo with no impact on any other players while in EVE it's impossible are false. Both can be done with an incredible detriment to your progression and enjoyment.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1269 - 2015-09-04 14:38:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Lucas Kell wrote:
Tippia wrote:
What happens to the NPC prices in EVE when you buy from them? Who is subject to these prices?
Nothing, everyone.
Wrong. What happens is that the prices change to reflect your buying habits. That's why your attempt to replicate WoW in EVE will not work.

Quote:
I don't believe it can. If somehow you could get going only using instanced content, all your could hope to do in WoW is build up a cache of stuff and level up.
That's pretty much the game… Blink

In EVE, to “level up”, you have to affect other players. It is also entirely pointless since you quickly run out of skills to train for the limited equipment set you have access to (and you'd better hope you don't lose it). So it's not quite the same as the progression you actually go through in WoW. Lol

Quote:
No it's not. I'd say EVE is a diverse sandbox with interspersed PvE and PvP mechanics. To say it's just PvP makes is sound like it's World of Tanks in space.
That's because you refuse to actually explain the game, using sensible categories to describe the actual gameplay. Your description is so nondescript that it doesn't tell us anything particularly useful about the game to the point where I'd almost call it deceptive. Are you sure you haven't been playing GTA?
Salvos Rhoska
#1270 - 2015-09-04 14:46:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Lan Wang wrote:
so whats killing afk players classed as?

They are nonetheless "live", as in ingame at that moment.

Since they are afk, the interaction is rather one sided, but nonetheless characterisable as a hard boot interacring with the rather more soft resistance of their face.

On the point of POS, this raises an interesting question of aggressing a players assets while he is offline, as PvP.
Id argue that since the POS is an extension of the player, as his property (as is a ship he is piloting), and the particular issue of conflict between him and the aggressing player, its still PvP.


Also, damn you all for burying my beautiful and insightful space essays in piles of crap...
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#1271 - 2015-09-04 14:47:50 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Yes it is. All of it is. Evasion is part of the competition. Even if you were to use the insanely myopic idea that PvP only entails combat, then it's still PvP since you're still trying to not be killed.
But that's not part of the mechanic, is it? Many miners mine every day and get not interaction from other players. Are you saying that even then, that's PvP. Shooting a rock is not PvP, and when someone shows up and kills you, they are not mining and neither are you when you fight back.


The PvE mechanic of mining is embedded in the PvP mechanic of flying armed space ships through space.Therefore mining is part of the PvP character of the game.

A computer is a computer and not a weapon system.

The computer in my car is not a weapon system.

The guidance computer in a missile (I'm talking of weapons here, not civilian space-rockets) is part of the missile and therefore a weapon system.

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.

Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1272 - 2015-09-04 14:50:50 UTC
Jill Xelitras wrote:
The PvE mechanic of mining is embedded in the PvP mechanic of flying armed space ships through space.Therefore mining is part of the PvP character of the game.


wut?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#1273 - 2015-09-04 15:00:38 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:


Jill Xelitras wrote:
So now playstyle preference defines the whole game ?

So ... just because I, Jill, am currently just subbed to retain forum posting privileges, EvE is merely a BB with no PvE or PvP whatsoever ?

Must be so.
No, I'm simply pointing out that claims that WoW can be played completely solo with no impact on any other players while in EVE it's impossible are false. Both can be done with an incredible detriment to your progression and enjoyment.


So ...

there are so many games that I can potentially decide to not play, so they are not games ?

if I take books to put my screen higher, they are no longer books ?

cats from the neighbourhood, like to climb under my car when I park it outside, mobile heated cat-shelter ?

You're twisting arguments like a Rubiks Cube.


Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.

Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#1274 - 2015-09-04 15:03:24 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
Jill Xelitras wrote:
The PvE mechanic of mining is embedded in the PvP mechanic of flying armed space ships through space.Therefore mining is part of the PvP character of the game.


wut?

The action Mining (Shooting space rocks specifically) is a PvE action, however you can not mine anywhere without at any point in time being possibly subjected to non-consensual PvP because EvE is a PvP game. (Newbiw systems excluded because sanity)

Selecting a rock (or NPC) and pressing F1-F8 is a PvE ACTION. However spending the isk on the market, selling the loot, spending the LP and selling the items, refining the loot and manufacturing stuff and selling THAT or getting ganked WHILE shooting space rocks/NPCs are all PvP actions.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1275 - 2015-09-04 15:03:45 UTC
Jill Xelitras wrote:
What?


what are you even talking about?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1276 - 2015-09-04 15:05:42 UTC
Lol That is all.
Time for food — can you guys please not be overly insane in the meantime?
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1277 - 2015-09-04 15:11:04 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Wrong. What happens is that the prices change to reflect your buying habits. That's why your attempt to replicate WoW in EVE will not work.
That's strange, becausE I bought a skillbook and the price remain the same.

Tippia wrote:
That's pretty much the game… Blink
That's most RPGs. Get stuff + levels, do bigger content.

Tippia wrote:
In EVE, to “level up”, you have to affect other players. It is also entirely pointless since you quickly run out of skills to train for the limited equipment set you have access to (and you'd better hope you don't lose it). So it's not quite the same as the progression you actually go through in WoW. Lol
No you don't. You log in to your new account, you get the skillbooks that the tutorial gives you and you insert it, then you wait. With just the skillbooks available for sale in a rookie system from NPCs, you can spend years levelling up. In WoW, you do have to skill stuff, and finding enough low level instanced content to get you up to the repeatable content is quite tricky.

Tippia wrote:
That's because you refuse to actually explain the game, using sensible categories to describe the actual gameplay. Your description is so nondescript that it doesn't tell us anything particularly useful about the game to the point where I'd almost call it deceptive. Are you sure you haven't been playing GTA?
Yet your description is "EVE is a PvP game" and that says so much more?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1278 - 2015-09-04 15:13:59 UTC
Jill Xelitras wrote:
The PvE mechanic of mining is embedded in the PvP mechanic of flying armed space ships through space.Therefore mining is part of the PvP character of the game.

A computer is a computer and not a weapon system.

The computer in my car is not a weapon system.

The guidance computer in a missile (I'm talking of weapons here, not civilian space-rockets) is part of the missile and therefore a weapon system.
Is the person you blow up with this missile a weapon system? If you launch it at a civilian target and kill non-combatants do they suddenly become combatants because you blew them up with a missile?

Mining is a PvE mechanic. Just because you can walk over and shoot someone who is mining, it doesn't suddenly make that mechanic a PvP mechanic.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1279 - 2015-09-04 15:15:39 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
Selecting a rock (or NPC) and pressing F1-F8 is a PvE ACTION. However spending the isk on the market, selling the loot, spending the LP and selling the items, refining the loot and manufacturing stuff and selling THAT or getting ganked WHILE shooting space rocks/NPCs are all PvP actions.
Agreed... thus EVE is a game with interspersed PvE and PvP mechanics. Correct?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Salvos Rhoska
#1280 - 2015-09-04 15:21:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Lucas Kell wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Its not overly broad.

Read the following:

Player(s) versus player(s), or , is a type of multiplayer interactive conflict within a game between two or more live participants. This is in contrast to games where players compete against computer controlled opponents and/or players, which is correspondingly referred to as player versus environment (PvE)."

-https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_versus_player

This, in precise terms, defines PvP, and its unique characteristics as separate from PvE.

If anything involves two or more live participants in interactive (which all of EVE is) conflict (which I can append a definition to, if you are unfamiliar with it) , it is PvP.

By contrast, if it does NOT meet the criteria of the above, and is against a computer controlled opponent, then and only then is it PvE.
Wikipedia, so obviously entirely factual. Honestly I'm surprised you didn't pick the bit that said "PvP can be broadly used to describe any game, or aspect of a game, where players compete against each other. In computer role-playing games" though that goes right towards my claim that the description is broad, not necessarily inaccurate.

Then of course there's this bit: "In computer role-playing games, PvP is sometimes called player killing or PKing.". So a player needs to be killed for it to be PvP?

Look further down and look at the classification section of it:
Classifications
Player killing
Anti Player Killing
Dueling
Flagging

I don't see any mining in there.

The thing is, this is how a lot of people see PvP, that it's one player killing another. Saying that EVE is entirely PvP undersells it since there's a huge variety of activities to take part in.


1) You refused to offer a substantiated definition of "competetive PvE" when I asked you for it, because you claimed I would call it unfounded. Now when I offer a substantiated and peer-reviewed definition, you do exactly that to me yourself.

Atleast I delivered a definition. And atleast I didnt resort to hypocrisy and intellectual dishonesty as you have now, again.

2) PvP is "sometimes" called PKing, when it fits the specific criteria of PKing. The "sometimes" in that phrase means PvP is sometimes called PKing, when its PKing, as elaborated on in the classifications (which feeds into the next inane point of yours).
Nice try, pedant.

3) The classifications are sub-divisions that elaborate on the definition, under those circumstances in which they apply.
None of them refute the original definition, they merely elaborate on some particular classifications of it.

4) Mining fits the actual definition. It is interactive conflict (over resources) between two or more live players, the second another live player enters the situation. Mining itself interestingly also does cerrtainly not fit the definition of PvE, as "where players compete against computer controlled opponents and/or players", as the asteroid does not compete, it merely is.

Incursions, plexes, missions, data/relic sites, however, do fit the criteria of PvE.
But it is trumped the second another player enters the instance, into PvP, unless those players do not compete with you.
Since another player entering it is ALWAYS possible, that again reinforces and obviates that EVE is essentially, always, throughout, a PvP sandbox, even in these superficially PvE activities.

5) "A lot" of people seeing something a certain way, does not make it true or real.
Especially here in EVE, where your "a lot" is utterly overshadowed and dwarfed by the " a lot" that sees these matters as I do. My "a lot" is bigger than yours, and according to your logic, that makes our stance better than yours, defacto.

6) Saying that EVE is anything BUT entirely PvP, is a lie, and misleads players as to its nature, and leads to player dissatisfaction when they realize their expectations do not match that seminal fact.

By telling people EVE anything except the whole brutal truth about its PvP nature, is a recipe for dissatisfaction and dissappointment, especially for players who are used to a very different kind of MMO. Lying to them or cushioning the truth from them, is a disservice. Dont do it.

Furthermore, by understating the essential PvP nature of EVE, it is YOU who are underselling the game.
Its PvP nature, risk, competition and universal player intersctivity are its primary selling points and ehat define it in the MMO market!!


You are presenting to make this problem even worse.

You really are terrible at this.
Over and over you paint yourself into a corner of your own devising.
Someone from your organisation really should give you a tap on the shoulder and gently, but firmly, suggest:
"Time to stop posting".