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Decline in numbers... starting to turn into RAPID!!!

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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1141 - 2015-09-04 10:32:05 UTC
Avvy wrote:
Everything in WoW is not.

You can run an instance on your own, which will have no effect on anyone else at that time.

The only time you will interact with anyone else with that activity is when you come to sell the stuff, but often that isn't even the case as the items gained are just sold to an NPC as trash items.

So often there is no interaction with anyone else.
Just like I can seal off a wormhole and nothing I do in there will have an impact at the time. But when I come out I'll have an impact on the rest of the playerbase as a result when I sell things I go there. Exactly the same as WoW. Even if you sell to an NPC, you are generating gold and thus the volume of gold increases in the game, inflating the economy.

Tippia wrote:
No, it does not.
You're confusing creating an instance of something and instancing as a way to section off the game world.
No, instancing is instancing. It's generating specific content for a player or group of players. That happens in EVE too. That said, even in WoW you can get other people into your instances and the results impact people who weren't in the instance. What you're doing here is trying to claim that it somehow has no effect on other people because noone can swoop in and gank you in an instance.

Tippia wrote:
No, it can't, because almost every game will have tons of hard restrictions, limitations, and circumscription that excludes content from being PvP:able. In EVE, no such restrictions exist.
Of course it can! You're defining PvP in EVE as "Anything which affects other players", which nearly every mechanic in every MMO does.

Tippia wrote:
How is it useless? It's the truth, and it demonstrates very clearly what sets EVE apart on a fundamental design level from most other games, especially in the MMO domain.

You can still categorise content in EVE, but trying to separate stuff into PvE and PvP isn't a particularly constructive way of doing it. And no, there's no contradiction between these two claims — quite the opposite. We can still use the PvE/PvP split to differentiate EVE from other games, and the fact that everything in EVE ends up being PvP only highlights that we need different categories for the actual in-game content.
But it doesn't, as EVE clearly isn't that different from other MMOs other than the players that play it tend to be shockingly arrogant. At the end of the day you interact with NPCs and the environment to generate money and items which you use to compete with other players in whatever activity you choose to do. This desperate attempt to make it seem like EVE is so much different in design to other MMOs is exactly what causes them to shed their playerbase so quickly.

Tippia wrote:
It is more precise because it doesn't incorrectly label activities as something they're not; it's not pedantic because it is the whole point, not something that avoids it; and it allows us to break out of a clichéd terminology that isn't suited for what we want to describe.
Of course it is. We all know what the guy was making a distinction between by having two categories, but you want to just go "no, it's all PvP" as if there's no difference between shooting someone in the face and mining a rock.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1142 - 2015-09-04 10:36:30 UTC
Tippia wrote:
If you want to increase retention, in particular, this reliance on inaccurate terminology can only ever be harmful and suck in people who draw the wrong conclusions from what they associate with the terms. Keeping PvP to its actual meaning of denoting a conflict with other players lets us explain a very short sentence a fundamental truth about the game that lets players decide early on if it is something that might interest them.
I disagree, I think it's quite the opposite. People on this side need to appreciate that there's a demand for shooting red triangles and stop trying to scream at anyone that chooses to do that like they are playing the game wrong. EVE has a great framework for PvE content, it just rarely gets developed beyond what it's been for years because too many people jump up and down and scream "but EVE is PvP!" when they do.

Tippia wrote:
That's bull and you know it. In fact, you even say so yourself. So drop it — you are not this much of an idiot, and trying to use it as an argument only makes you look foolish.

None of the restrictions against direct competition that exist in WoW exist in EVE. Period. “But […] if […] depending” nothing. You know full well that WoW have anti-competitive restrictions on a fuckton of its conent where EVE has none at all. So saying that EVE isn't more through and though PvP is just dishonest and ridiculous.
No it's not. By the exact same definition that you are claiming EVE is PvP, WoW is too. Everything you do has an impact on the wider environment and on the players in it. Restrictions on content don't stop it being PvP. Drone assist didn't stiop being PvP when they limited it to 50 drones.

Tippia wrote:
In other words, he was just flat-out wrong. End of.
How? I'm saying it's the same in all games. You're saying it like in EVE it's the case but elsewhere it's not.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Avvy
Doomheim
#1143 - 2015-09-04 10:42:46 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Everything in WoW is not.

You can run an instance on your own, which will have no effect on anyone else at that time.

The only time you will interact with anyone else with that activity is when you come to sell the stuff, but often that isn't even the case as the items gained are just sold to an NPC as trash items.

So often there is no interaction with anyone else.


Just like I can seal off a wormhole and nothing I do in there will have an impact at the time. But when I come out I'll have an impact on the rest of the playerbase as a result when I sell things I go there. Exactly the same as WoW. Even if you sell to an NPC, you are generating gold and thus the volume of gold increases in the game, inflating the economy.



They make gold for themselves increasing their buying power. But they're not in competition with anyone, even when they buy something from the market they just buy the lowest priced one, there is no competition buying from WoW's market, there are no buy orders. With WoW's market the competition is with the sellers.
Cancel Align NOW
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1144 - 2015-09-04 10:47:26 UTC
Lucas I do not understand where instancing happens in Eve. Please clarify your position, some examples would be good.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#1145 - 2015-09-04 10:50:12 UTC
Cancel Align NOW wrote:
Lucas I do not understand where instancing happens in Eve. Please clarify your position, some examples would be good.
Captain's Quarters?

Sigh.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
#1146 - 2015-09-04 10:51:25 UTC
Cancel Align NOW wrote:
Lucas I do not understand where instancing happens in Eve. Please clarify your position, some examples would be good.

I would also like to see an example please.
Avvy
Doomheim
#1147 - 2015-09-04 10:54:01 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Cancel Align NOW wrote:
Lucas I do not understand where instancing happens in Eve. Please clarify your position, some examples would be good.
Captain's Quarters?

Sigh.


That's the only one I can think of, although I guess you can include the hanger view.
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
#1148 - 2015-09-04 10:54:26 UTC  |  Edited by: xxxTRUSTxxx
Black Pedro wrote:
Cancel Align NOW wrote:
Lucas I do not understand where instancing happens in Eve. Please clarify your position, some examples would be good.
Captain's Quarters?

Sigh.


well played,,, gg

that's about it though.
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#1149 - 2015-09-04 11:00:07 UTC
apparently you can only quote 5 times in a post What?

***Lucas Kell: The markets are separated (like regional markets in EVE) but players can move things between them.[/quote]
Precisely ! I can take my stuff and move it to where I think it's would be more profitable or easier to sell. Thereby I remove direct competition in the market I was without removing indirect competition to the same traders because I'm still selling the same items. Potential buyers can move freely too. And all that is still in the same universe, we all share. That's not how WoW markets work. Something like the CFC monopoly on Technetium creating a price hike for all players in every solar system would not work in WoW. It would be limited to a realm.

***Lucas Kell: And note, EVE is actually 2 universes not counting the test servers. [/quote]
Correct. The server in China, because the chinese government doesn't want its citizens on the "world wide" part of the WWW. There is indeed a moment where you have to cap server population for technical reasons. But there is a clear difference between our solar systems, that we can freely move to and from and realms that specifically obey different rule sets and where you can't freely move to and from. I will get to our markets vs WoW markets later.
Lucas Kell wrote:

Instanced content? That exists in EVE. Missions for example spawn the same content for everyone, well, either that or there's an awful lot of identical looking damsels needing to be saved.

Except that I can warp into your mission and loot the damsel before you do. So, missions, while being copied from the same source are not independant locked up rooms that give only you and your fleet the key to enter. (please understad this figuratively, because I know you're going to come with the few missions where you need to have a certain item in your possession to activate a gate as counter-example. Those specific rooms may keep me out, but in general I can bother you in missions in EvE)

An instance is not only an exact copy of the original level, it also keep any other player / raid from interacting directly with you.

Lucas Kell wrote:

Jill Xelitras wrote:

Yes, it's PvP. But PvP comes at different levels.
Exactly what I was saying. And no, it doesn't make the PvP shallower, it simply makes the losses less. Elite insures your ships and modules at 95%, but I wouldn't call the PvP in that shallower than EVE.


Imagine different swimming pools with different dephts. You can swim in them as soon as their is enough water and they are deep enough for you to float and move your arms and legs freely ... but how deep can you dive ? That's what I mean by shallow. Yes you can die in Elite, but how much of a setback is it to you ? How much do I benefit from your setback ?

Let's imagine that in SC ships were bound to your character (assumption based on the fact that some ships have been sold for real money). How meaningful is it when I destroy such a ship ? Isn't that like our rookie ships in EvE, or the clothes on my character ... are those meaningful in the context of PvP ?
Lucas Kell wrote:

Jill Xelitras wrote:
It's just easier to tag any interaction with AI as PvE, even if there is a PvP component to it. It's also reasonable to separate a specific mechanic as PvP or PvE, when you knowingly ignore that said mechanic is part of a bigger system (snip)

So, missioning in the safest place of high-sec = PvP, because there is at least 1 part of all the mechanics involved, that is PvP.
Sure, but then you end up with a situation like we have now, where everything is defined ad PvP, which is useless. The whole point of having categorisation is so that similar types of content can be grouped.

Context, Lucas. It's both the context of the discussion that counts aswell as the context of the mechanic. If we decide to rebalance a ship because it sucks at PvE, won't it have an impact on PvP ? If we ask for better AI so that running missions requires a little more attention by players, it certainly improves the PvE experience ... but now NPC take longer to kill. The possible consequences could be:
less loot drops/s -> increase in named module prices
more teamwork to finish missions faster
more bling ships to improve dps -> more ships being ganked
...

***Lucas Kell: And how is it more precise to say "everything is PvP"? [/quote]
When it is used to counter the false segmentation of mechanics which do influence one another.
#EvEmissionsarenoinstances
#Notyoursalvage

***Lucas Kell:
I'd say it's more precise to say:
Keeping PvP to it's classic definition of direct interaction with an opposing player, with PvE being direct interaction with NPCs,[/quote]
Yes, that's exactly what Tippia, me and others are saying ... but:

If your PvE is not in an area cordoned off like a crime scene investigation (#instancedPvE) and I can just walk over and steal your loot, salvage the wrecks, gank you ... then there is PvP tied into the PvE mechanic.

Imagine it like this: You and I are in a car (missioning) driving along a road (EvE's sandbox) . I'm driving (PvP) and you're my passenger (PvE). I slam the car into a tree and we both get injured.

Now you say: "That's not fair, I wasn't even driving. I was just doing PvE" ... see ? Me doing the PvP could harm you because you did PvE while being in my car on the same road.

***Lucas Kell:
most PvP activities have an erratic reward structure which make them less appealing and less able to be performed without having to fund yourself through PvE. Improving the reward structure may increase the number of players actively participating in these activities, leading to increased retention of players with an interest in PvP.[/quote]

Yeah, whatever.

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1150 - 2015-09-04 11:01:42 UTC
Avvy wrote:
They make gold for themselves increasing their buying power. But they're not in competition with anyone, even when they buy something from the market they just buy the lowest priced one, there is no competition buying from WoW's market, there are no buy orders. With WoW's market the competition is with the sellers.
So how is that any different from eve? I shoot a rat to get isk, then I go and buy something from the market. Yet that gets classed as PvP because I impact other players, while in WoW it's classed as PvE, even though you have the exact same impact. I'm not sure what the lowest priced item has to do with it, but in EVE you are actually forced to buy the lowest priced item when you buy from the market, so you can't even choose to buy from a specific order.

Cancel Align NOW wrote:
Lucas I do not understand where instancing happens in Eve. Please clarify your position, some examples would be good.
Go to an agent and accept a mission. An instance of that mission area is created when you accept the mission.

On a technical level, every grid you occupy in space is an instance with free movement between instances. This is why you can be 1km away from someone yet not see them if they are across the grid boundary.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Avvy
Doomheim
#1151 - 2015-09-04 11:04:33 UTC
Jill Xelitras wrote:
apparently you can only quote 5 times in a post What?



Yeah, which leaves you 2 options, reduce the amount of quotes or split the post into 2.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1152 - 2015-09-04 11:12:15 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
No, instancing is instancing.
No. It has multiple meanings. “Instancing” as it is almost universally used in the MMO realm does not exist in EVE. Again, you are (hopefully not deliberately) confusing the meaning of activating a copy of a template with the meaning of creating a pocket dimension for players to be alone in. Instancing everywhere else has the second meaning; instancing in EVE, on the spectacularly rare occasions that it is called that, has the first.

They are not the same. You're simply flat out wrong about this. Read up on what the word means, learn from it, and stop being silly.

Quote:
Of course it can! You're defining PvP in EVE as "Anything which affects other players"
No, and even with that definition, WoW still has tons of hard restrictions that keep content from being PvP:able — restrictions that do not exist in EVE. It is entirely possible to play WoW without affecting other players, as if it were a single-player game with a chat channel; it is impossible to do so in EVE.

So no, EVE is PvP through and through in a way that other games — especially WoW — cannot even begin to approach, and using that silly strawman does not change this simple fact as you well know.

Quote:
]But it doesn't, as EVE clearly isn't that different from other MMOs other than
…that it is a full-PvP sandbox, which makes it fairly unique in the MMO arena. Even the content that would be PvE in any other game is subject to PvP — all of it — and there are no restrictions or protections put into place to make any of it “yours” beyond what you can carve out for yourself as part of that competition.

It is also unique in that its core dynamic is its economy: an player-run engine kept running by through the supply and demand interplay between player-controlled destruction and player-controlled production. The production and destruction side are both entirely PvP-based, as is the market itself. While there is PvE content to provide grease for this engine in the form of ISK, that content is also subject to PvP and could actually be removed completely without breaking the construct as a whole. The mechanisms for fauceting ISK through other means than shooting no-longer-red-crosses already exist.

Making people understand this critical difference between EVE and everything else on the market does not cause it to “shed their playerbase” — in fact, it has consistently been what draws people in and keeps them playing. Ignorance of the difference has caused untold rage-quits to happen, which if anything means that it needs to be communicated more clearly.

Quote:
Of course it is. We all know what the guy was making a distinction between by having two categories, but you want to just go "no, it's all PvP" as if there's no difference between shooting someone in the face and mining a rock.
There isn't, at least not in a way that can be meaningfully conveyed using those two terms. What you are trying to say is that there is a difference between competing for resources and combat survival, and that's true, but that is not a distinction between PvE and PvP. It is not pedantic to point out that such a categorisation completely misses the mark; it is actually pretty crucial to understanding what makes EVE different.

Quote:
How?
Because he said the PvE was player-created.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1153 - 2015-09-04 11:13:50 UTC
Jill Xelitras wrote:
Precisely ! I can take my stuff and move it to where I think it's would be more profitable or easier to sell. Thereby I remove direct competition in the market I was without removing indirect competition to the same traders because I'm still selling the same items. Potential buyers can move freely too. And all that is still in the same universe, we all share. That's not how WoW markets work. Something like the CFC monopoly on Technetium creating a price hike for all players in every solar system would not work in WoW. It would be limited to a realm.
It clearly isn't limited to a realm though, since market on a realm affect each other because of cross-realm trades.

Jill Xelitras wrote:
Correct. The server in China, because the chinese government doesn't want its citizens on the "world wide" part of the WWW. There is indeed a moment where you have to cap server population for technical reasons. But there is a clear difference between our solar systems, that we can freely move to and from and realms that specifically obey different rule sets and where you can't freely move to and from. I will get to our markets vs WoW markets later.
Except like our solar systems, WoW realm are connected within their groups. The reason they have more groups (equivalent of EVE cluster) is due to them having millions of players. If EVE had as many palyers they'd also have to split down.

Jill Xelitras wrote:
Except that I can warp into your mission and loot the damsel before you do. So, missions, while being copied from the same source are not independant locked up rooms that give only you and your fleet the key to enter. (please understad this figuratively, because I know you're going to come with the few missions where you need to have a certain item in your possession to activate a gate as counter-example. Those specific rooms may keep me out, but in general I can bother you in missions in EvE)

An instance is not only an exact copy of the original level, it also keep any other player / raid from interacting directly with you.
Wrong. And instance is precisely that, it's a duplicate environment provided for a player or group. Whether or not it supports free movement is irrelevant. There are many MMOs with instanced content with free movement between them. EVE is just one of them

Jill Xelitras wrote:
Imagine different swimming pools with different dephts. You can swim in them as soon as their is enough water and they are deep enough for you to float and move your arms and legs freely ... but how deep can you dive ? That's what I mean by shallow. Yes you can die in Elite, but how much of a setback is it to you ? How much do I benefit from your setback ?
Depth is not the same as impact of loss. And technically for most vets the impact of loss in EVE is minimal. I lose a bigger portion of my total assets losing a ship in Elite than I do losing a ship in EVE.


Jill Xelitras wrote:
Context, Lucas. It's both the context of the discussion that counts aswell as the context of the mechanic. If we decide to rebalance a ship because it sucks at PvE, won't it have an impact on PvP ? If we ask for better AI so that running missions requires a little more attention by players, it certainly improves the PvE experience ... but now NPC take longer to kill. The possible consequences could be:
less loot drops/s -> increase in named module prices
more teamwork to finish missions faster
more bling ships to improve dps -> more ships being ganked
Sure, so surely that's even mroe of a reason to correctly group content, rather than just calling everything PvP?

"Yes, that's exactly what Tippia, me and others are saying ... but:

If your PvE is not in an area cordoned off like a crime scene investigation (#instancedPvE) and I can just walk over and steal your loot, salvage the wrecks, gank you ... then there is PvP tied into the PvE mechanic."
Nobody suggested that PvE was sectioned off in EVE, but it's still PvE. It's still a PvE part of the game. They are still PvE mechanics. So when the guy said that PvP wasn't rewarding in itself, we all understood what he meant, and we knew he didn't mean incursions for example.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1154 - 2015-09-04 11:14:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Lucas Kell wrote:
Go to an agent and accept a mission. An instance of that mission area is created when you accept the mission.
…but not in the form of a pocket dimension, which is what instance means in every MMO except EVE.

The term is used in EVE because that's just what programmers call it when you create an instance of something in the game world. As a MMO design element, however, it has a different meaning that does not apply to EVE.

Quote:
On a technical level, every grid you occupy in space is an instance with free movement between instances.
No, those are not instances in any sense of the word — they're just map divisions.

Quote:
Wrong. And instance is precisely that, it's a duplicate environment provided for a player or group.
Wrong. An instance in an MMO context is very specifically more than that: it is not just a copy, but a private copy to which outsiders have no access. That was why they were invented — to ensure that the creator had sole access to the content within and didn't have to compete with others. These days, you even see it nested in on itself as people expect to be able to run instances in groups, so that even within that shared space, loot is instanced on a per-player basis.
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#1155 - 2015-09-04 11:20:12 UTC
Tippia wrote:


Lucas Kell wrote:
With that guy, in context he was correct.
No. He tried to set up a false dichotomy by saying that EVE is a sandbox game, as if this would in any way, shape, or form contradict the very simple fact that it is a PvP game through and though. The fact of the matter is that there is no such dichotomy or contradiction. Eve is a sandbox. Therefore it is a PvP game. He was also wrong about what this sandbox nature entails. Players cannot crete any PvE content, nor “anything else in-between” PvE and PvP. Players can only create PvP. This is hardly surprising since EVE is a full-time PvP game by virtue of being a multiplayer sandbox. The PvE content, in EVE as in pretty much every game, is created by the devs and offered purely for consumption. So context or no context, he was just flat-out wrong, both in the details and in the larger perspective he tried to create.

EVE's nature as a PvP game has nothing to do with the choices you make in the sandbox. It is deeply ingrained in every last facet of the game, and is inescapable. That's what sets EVE apart from most other MMOs: you have no choice as far as PvP goes. It is fundamental, unavoidable, omnipresent. That's the funny paradox about the whole sandbox concept: if you did have a choice, it wouldn't be a sandbox, even though choice is supposedly the cornerstone of a sandbox design.


Exactly !

People sometimes confuse purely PvE sandbox (Minecraft in creative mode and multiplayer, The Sims ...) with PvP sandbox (EvE) ...

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
Avvy
Doomheim
#1156 - 2015-09-04 11:20:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Lucas Kell wrote:
Avvy wrote:
They make gold for themselves increasing their buying power. But they're not in competition with anyone, even when they buy something from the market they just buy the lowest priced one, there is no competition buying from WoW's market, there are no buy orders. With WoW's market the competition is with the sellers.
So how is that any different from eve? I shoot a rat to get isk, then I go and buy something from the market. Yet that gets classed as PvP because I impact other players, while in WoW it's classed as PvE, even though you have the exact same impact. I'm not sure what the lowest priced item has to do with it, but in EVE you are actually forced to buy the lowest priced item when you buy from the market, so you can't even choose to buy from a specific order.



*I wouldn't say buying the lowest item is PvP I wouldn't even call it PvE, but the EVE market in general is better than most. Plus I don't think I've seen any NPCs that I can sell to in EVE which means the economy is player run. There's a lot more competition in EVE's market than others I've seen.

Edit:
*But that's only if buying directly without using buy orders.

Lucas Kell wrote:
Cancel Align NOW wrote:
Lucas I do not understand where instancing happens in Eve. Please clarify your position, some examples would be good.
Go to an agent and accept a mission. An instance of that mission area is created when you accept the mission.

On a technical level, every grid you occupy in space is an instance with free movement between instances. This is why you can be 1km away from someone yet not see them if they are across the grid boundary.


WoW instances will only allow the person or group (if grouped together) to enter, nobody else can access it. That's what people are talking about when they're talking about instanced content.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#1157 - 2015-09-04 11:26:13 UTC
There are some items you can sell to NPC's however anyone is able to put up buy orders for those items and many make a lot of isk off that (Blue loot from WHs are an example of this, as is OPE)

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1158 - 2015-09-04 11:26:59 UTC
Tippia wrote:
No. It has multiple meanings. “Instancing” as it is almost universally used in the MMO realm does not exist in EVE. Again, you are (hopefully not deliberately) confusing the meaning of activating a copy of a template with the meaning of creating a pocket dimension for players to be alone in. Instancing everywhere else has the second meaning; instancing in EVE, on the spectacularly rare occasions that it is called that, has the first.
Of course it does. You're just trying to claim that instancing with free borders doesn't count because :reasons:. So OK, you want limits? Try to get 10k players into the same mission grid. Good luck!

Instancing is a method of duplicating content. Whether or not the borders are free and how many players can get into each one is up to the developers to decide. It doesn;t stop it being instancing just because other people can visit yoru instance.


Tippia wrote:
No, and even with that definition, WoW still has tons of hard restrictions that keep content from being PvP:able — restrictions that do not exist in EVE. It is entirely possible to play WoW without affecting other players, as if it were a single-player game with a chat channel; it is impossible to do so in EVE.

So no, EVE is PvP through and through in a way that other games — especially WoW — cannot even begin to approach, and using that silly strawman does not change this simple fact as you well know.
All content in EVE will have an impact on other players, thus it is PvP.

And no, it's not possible. The moment you kill a boar you have impacted the server, both by depriving other players of a boar and it's associated loot and by altering the balance of gold/items in the economy. It's no different from someone shooting a rat in EVE.

Tippia wrote:
…that it is a full-PvP sandbox, which makes it fairly unique in the MMO arena. Even the content that would be PvE in any other game is subject to PvP — all of it — and there are no restrictions or protections put into place to make any of it “yours” beyond what you can carve out for yourself as part of that competition.

It is also unique in that its core dynamic is its economy: an player-run engine kept running by through the supply and demand interplay between player-controlled destruction and player-controlled production. The production and destruction side are both entirely PvP-based, as is the market itself. While there is PvE content to provide grease for this engine in the form of ISK, that content is also subject to PvP and could actually be removed completely without breaking the construct as a whole. The mechanisms for fauceting ISK through other means than shooting no-longer-red-crosses already exist.

Making people understand this critical difference between EVE and everything else on the market does not cause it to “shed their playerbase” — in fact, it has consistently been what draws people in and keeps them playing. Ignorance of the difference has caused untold rage-quits to happen, which if anything means that it needs to be communicated more clearly.
See what I mean about that arrogance? EVE is really not that different from other MMOs. Other than of course the incredible lack of players.


Tippia wrote:
There isn't, at least not in a way that can be meaningfully conveyed using those two terms. What you are trying to say is that there is a difference between competing for resources and combat survival, and that's true, but that is not a distinction between PvE and PvP. It is not pedantic to point out that such a categorisation completely misses the mark; it is actually pretty crucial to understanding what makes EVE different.
Of course there is, and clearly one can be labelled as PvE (as it is by CCP themselves) and the other is labelled as PvP.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#1159 - 2015-09-04 11:31:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
Lucas, you are incorrect in your understanding of the term Instancing as it applies to MMOs in general and the specific difference between EvE and most other MMOs. There are MMOs out there that use it in a similar way to EvE however WoW and most WoW clones do not. While there are technical limitations on the *upper limit* of number of people you can fit onto a single grid in EvE, the point is that ANYONE can enter your 'pve instance' in eve, be that mission, complex, etc. while NO ONE you haven't invited can enter your pve instance (Dungeon, Quest, etc.) in WoW.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Esnaelc Sin'led
Lonesome Capsuleer
#1160 - 2015-09-04 11:34:18 UTC
Jita Jitara wrote:
I think the following might increase interest:

1) add more regions - more space needed, at least another 5000+ systems for the taking
2) limit corps to 75-100 members and alliances to 50 corporations, coalitions would be created, coalitions will dissolve, backstabs will occur. Everyone will have a fighting chance.
3) kill titans or make them stationary so that they serve a purpose of being a system defense structure rather then to move them about and use them in fleets.
4) eliminate jump bridges
5) 0.8-1.0 systems: no pirates/gankers allowed at all, 0.5-07 business as usual.
6) moon minerals should deplete on moons and respawn on different moons, which would encourage conquest. Each moon gives a random amount according moon size. Small moon = small amounts vs big moon = big amounts.
7) 30 day timecodes at 750m a pop would be nice to have :) equivalent to currency.
8) mining boats need a stronger tank so that they can withstand the pirate ganks in 0.5-0.7 systems.
9) old school sov wars where you popped towers was a nice thing, dunno if it can be brought back into life. but thats just me. Node wars did spread out the fights to several different systems, so I did not see any massive lags yet.
10) increase number of wormholes and add more WH bonus types
11) Drones should drop loot, same as other npc factions
12) risk vs reward, more challenging anomalies and signatures

also I heard about EVE from a mate who heard from a mate who heard from a priest etc... So maybe more marketing would not hurt the CCP wallets. ****'s sale, World of Tanks has a better ad on TV then WoW. And if WoT can fight for their fanbase, dont see why CCP cant do it themselves as well.

Agree with points 6 / 10 / 12.

Point 6 is key for the game to be alive.
It goes for moons, but also for asteroid belts and combat sites.
It would turn the game a lot more dynamic and turn down "unbreakable" entities sitting on their gold mountains with no threat felt at all whatsoever.