EVE General Discussion

Of course not. If we assume the entire universe was predictable then nothing within would ever be random. Neither human behaviour nor the lottery. But this was not the question, was it? We certainly do allow events to be described as random, because of our lack of knowledge over what exactly caused them. Does a buyer buy items because he needs them? They most often do, don't they? Do we know why he thinks he needs them? That we also often know. But do we know the exact time when this will happen? We most often do not, but we can look it up after a sale has been made. That makes is random.

My point still is that loss is essential to PvP and that in market trading you are save from losses from others (excluding your own failures). The market environment protects you with guarantees (you either get the amount of ISKs you have asked for or you get the item back), shields you from being identified (competing sellers can not see your name, only buyers can know your name after the sale), allows you only to modify or to remove your own orders and turns it into competitive PvE.

The question over what the lottery was, since it is one of the most random things, was just a question. Still interesting to see how someone would describe the lottery as PvP.

Been afk making a drink, considering my comment you quoted here.

Ok, you're right but not much research needed, just had to remind myself what the definition of the word colour is.

I don't remember anyone before MMOs talking about PvE and PvP.

As far as I know they were terms specifically used within video gaming to distinguish between two main styles.

I really don't think it matters outside of video games.

I sometimes think you all like to argue over nothing in partcular, because you just had this impressions.
I usually dont argue over impressions, even when someone says they are facts, they are often not.

Maybe just enjoy the game, if there is something to enjoy in the first place.
Stop and ask yoursef that question, do you want to play the game, and why.
Or maybe why not?
Its everyones oppinion, how is the game doing...

If you want statistical data, make a survey.

You can use energy neutralizers to shut down the warp scrambler of your enemy.
You can use ecm drones to get a chance of breaking away from the fight, when you get a jam.
You can fly an ecm bonussed ship and prevent getting shot for a good while ... I love Griffins.
You can fly a ship with high alpha damage ... there's a reason why dessies and tier 3 BCs are popular.

There are many options.

It's CSM role. I wish we have CSM memebers more focused on certain aspects of the game. For example representant of PvErs, PvPers etc. More focused discussions of what is possible and what is not.

This thread is embarrassing for us.

Please lock it.

Loss, as your quote states, is meaningful. However what you ascribe as a loss, is measured against what values you hold it up to.
Some people do not consider losing a 1bil ship, a "loss", but objectively, it is.
Some people do not consider their commodities sitting on the market for 90 days, a "loss", but objectively any number of people were making profit in that interim, and directly denying that to the guy who has sold nothing (and who instead has effectively also lost all of their structural trading overhead costs for placing the orders, with no return).

In market trading, the objective are profit and market share (as well as sourcing commodities for other activities).
Yes, you can choose to never sell or buy anything, and subsequently never lose nor profit from trading.
But that doesn't change the market game, just means you never play it.
You can also choose to subjectively consider yourself not taking a loss if someone manages to more successfully pursue their trading goals over yours, but the result is still that they benefited by their actions, and you did not. You objectively "lost" the opportunity, and they gained it and its benefits, due to their market actions as competitive against yours.

When you do involve yourself in it by buying or selling, you are in competitive interaction with other players.
Whether they are anonymous (as we all are anyways in EVE, since we operate under aliases), does not change that.
Knowing who they are, would be useful information that can be used for purposes of player vs player interaction and competition, but is not a condition of PvP.
All the action on the market, is a result of player action (with the exception of a few NPC commodities, which they themselves also are ultimately subject to player action and manipulation, to a dynamic result).
None of it is random, it is all deliberate and enacted by other players.
There is no AI RNG affecting it.

The market system incurs some environmental constraints, in the form of limitations on range, tariffs/taxes/fees, number of orders etc. These can be mitigated by player action in terms of skilling, so as to improve that players competitive edge vs other players in these markets. The trading environment itself, however, is AI inactive. It provides merely the framework and basic interface mechanics for players to enact trading in EVE. Meaning players do not play against the AI/NPC, meaning there is no PvE element.

Players are not an "environment" element (which is misleading in the term PvE, as it actually applies specifically to AI/NPC non-player content ONLY, never to other players (in which case its obviously PvP, as it involves another player).

I'm not entirely sure what this thread is about anymore as it has deviated so much.

I think a lock might be a good idea.

It's an interesting and important topic that's worth a discussion but it's devolved it to a trainwreck with an idiot who I suspect is having some serious RL issues and a load of dudes who really should know better that to argue with him.

If this was happening in a pub the landlord would have refuse to serve them anymore drinks by now and their mates would have taken them home for a cup of tea and cartoons on the telly.