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Decline in numbers... starting to turn into RAPID!!!

First post
Author
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1061 - 2015-09-02 16:27:02 UTC
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1062 - 2015-09-02 16:44:40 UTC
The discussion of random. Am remembering a line from a physicist. Not direct quote since it was a longer discussion we had.

Nothing is random. Analyse something enough and a person can find out why a speck of dust landed where it did. Random is just a way of saying we havent implemented the means to measure or control. Every outcome is guaranteed. We just dont bother with the information and analysis to determine it.

Even the numbers from a lottery. If you know all factors involved, you can guaranteed determine what the results will be.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Salvos Rhoska
#1063 - 2015-09-02 17:27:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Black Pedro wrote:

But what we can say for sure, is that the timing of when people purchase items on the Eve Online market is highly non-random. It has definite patterns and knowable proximal causes, some of which can be explained quite easily. For example, selling an item for a low price at a busy time of day will result in a faster sale on average than at a high price at a quiet time: that is the process is non-random. It is stochastic in that you cannot predict with certainty when the next sale will take place, but it is far from random as there are definite patterns and it is predictable.

Why are we discussing this again? Some guy is claiming that market PvP is not PvP even though only players are involved? And what does that have to do with Eve's player counts? Do people think that whether a game is labelled "competitive PvE" or "PvP" would make a difference in player attraction or retention?


Agreed on the random issue. Even if there exists a random element somewhere, its nonetheless certainly introduced solely through player action, and players alone. Trading is PvP.

On the new "competetive PvE" buzzword, some few people seem to be really hung up on it, for some reason or other.
Especially from GW2.

Stands to reason there are others out there, particularly in the games that have marketted this concept, who think its an actual thing. Perhaps framing EVE, atleast in part like that in its own presentation, would attract more new players or retain some. Somehow psychologically is more favorable to them, or something.

Not me though. I think the term is nonsense. The existing definitions of PvP and PvE are adequate to define the difference between them and what happens in games without trying to re-invent the wheel just by applying new words to it. But hey, if it helps them to call an apple an orange, and attracts them to a game, why not.
babyblue
Solo Sovereignty
#1064 - 2015-09-02 18:38:31 UTC
Deck Cadelanne wrote:
Hilti Enaka wrote:

If anything, the next mods to hit the hammer should be warp disrupters and scramblers.


You pick a fight, get tackled and whine when the target's friends arrive and blap you.

Yet you think you are the one who did not make the bad decision?

Kind of sounds like you are saying "I suck at PVP, nerf it so I can run away from a fight if I am losing."


It's just a necessary component of a game that has an instant travel mode (warp - jump - whatever). I don't know what state changes are snuck in during warp, probably streaming in loading the grid or whatever. There's also the paper-scissor-stone aspect, where the encounter is won or lost before you even get on grid. Not always but quite often. Works both ways though - skill wise. You either get the point or escape. If nobody gave you travel, scout or point 101 tutorials, it may generate a feeling of injustice in a new player.

I suppose the issue is you don't "level up" against other players in terms of skill. You level up through actual experience. It's not a game mechanic.

So I completely understand where he's coming from.
Terraj Oknatis
Project Sanctuary
#1065 - 2015-09-02 18:56:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Terraj Oknatis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gZoOEeX44E&feature=youtu.be

-No Iso-boxing
Good for the general health of the game
Bad for the number of sub numbers.
-Recent Changes to "attract new players"
Bad for veteran players
Under-performing/failing in gathering and retaining new players.
-Skill Que Change:
Great for the game and makes sense
terrible for number of sub count at any one time.

As for the second point: This is the serious problem. CCP has to bring back the veterans and get rid of this idea that the game needs to be easier to attract new players! This game grew from obscurity by being one of the most hardcore games on the market. It needs to stay that way!

Conclusion-

Is EVE dying? That depends on who you ask. If you ask me I would say that it needs to go to the hospital and get a suppository of hardcore injection. For my first year and a half I followed the rules, waited for my skill training, grinding up standing so one day I could have a reward that only someone who ground standings for weeks and weeks on end would be able to refine at my station at 100%. I accomplished this goal after many months. Then what does ccp do? They change standing rules so that I only get 35% refine. Is that fair NO it is not fair.


Then I wished to own a high sec POS. For that you need 8.0 faction standing which is a b(#@ to get. So much grinding had to be done. I was at 7.5 standing with Amarr when CCP again made putting up a POS in high sec standing free. You know why? It is because new players didn't want to do the grind. Basically they were not willing to pay to do the grind. Then so it was, that putting a high sec POS is free.

This cascaded into spiral as there was no longer a need to put a high sec POS because now everyone can access research from day one. Now everyone can produce T1 ships at near perfect efficiency, now why bother producing t1 ships on zero to negative margin when EVERYONE can produce them anyways. The answer leave it up to the null cats and pay Jita for your ships.

Don't even get me started on Jump clones. Yeah I understand that probably 98% of people got their jump clones from their buddy buddy Rorqual pilots. I know I did. So this is a problem right? You should be able to get it at a station but the faction standing is a huge grind. Is that really a good mechanic; not really. What does CCP do? Do they LOWER faction standing requirements to a reasonable level? NO! They do a typical CCP over reaction. Instead of stepping down the requirement by say 2-3 faction standing, they simply ELIMINATE faction standing requirement. Is that fair to people like our good friends who actually did the work. HELL NO! I would agree with a few points less of faction standing. Step it down over the course of a few patches. Gauge the player base, see what they say when you lower it from 8.0-6.0. Don't just rip all that hard work away overnight. That is typical CCP shock treatment they put on everything.

I liked that the universe was a cold dark place where very powerful individuals (who had put in the time ) controlled everything. It makes the new player strive to be like those powerful ones. But now there is really nothing to strive for. Just buy a bunch of PLEX and you can have your very own POS from day one or do your research in a HS station whatever.

Now if you ask my buddy who only played a month ago.. he absolutely loves that he can research blueprints siting, "the barrier to entry has been broken." When I tell him that he can put up a high sec pos, he probably will do that. When I say hey train infomorph psychology to 4 and get your self some jump clones he will say. OK Terraj that sounds like good advice because your a vet and you know what your talking about. He knows not the old ways and enjoys the game in its current form. The problem is they are not attracting those kinds of players fast enough, and they are loosing the old players very quickly. This is all due to CCP's recent "shock treatment therapy' they have been applying to the game recently.

So now we are in a pickle with the vets yearning for the old way (and quiting in droves) and the new players embracing the new way (rather slowly). What are we to do as a community?

The answer is to put up your new shiny Citadel, name it _____'s Fanciful Palace of Awesome, play the game and suck it up. Find the new way to dominate New Eden. If your leaving the game, make sure to contract me all your stuff. You can address it to Terraj Oknatis. I'm sure Goons have already set up a mail box for their quitting members (and donations) for this exact situation.

I strive to be online the day the servers go dark. It will be a very sad day, but hopefully it will not come too soon because I still have goals I want to accomplish in game, and after 3 years of play i haven't accomplished them all yet. After that I have high hopes for Star Citizen, and hell maybe even Elite Dangerous if they ever get around to embracing high risk permanent ship loss.
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1066 - 2015-09-02 19:42:49 UTC
Eve has never been "one of the most hardcore games on the internet". It's a delusion propagated by those that think it makes them special to play "such a hardcore game". The reality is playing wow on a PVP server was just about as hardcore for various reasons.Korean games in general are much more hardcore. What cracks me up though is that after bragging about how hardcore the game is you stay stuff like this.

Quote:
They change standing rules so that I only get 35% refine. Is that fair NO it is not fair.
So do you want a hardcore game or not? Hardcore games aren't fair..


There's also this myth about if only CCP would stop trying to attract new players then eve would blossom!!!

"Veterans" as you call them leave the game for a variety of reasons and a lot of those reasons are contradictory in nature. The "old way" as you describe it is actually the "new way" for me and many others. The problem really is that "old way" is relative.

Quote:

Yeah I understand that probably 98% of people got their jump clones from their buddy buddy Rorqual pilots. I know I did. So this is a problem right?
People actually used the clone vat in a rorqual? Amazing.

Most of the people I know got their jump clones through various jump clone services which are free and easy to use. Standings for jump clones were already useless.



Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#1067 - 2015-09-02 20:08:26 UTC
Standings for jump clones... Let's just say that the system is so messed up that even in Red Federation there was one corporation we had high enough standings that members could use that corp for ones. 4000+ members, no real restrictions on standing, yet we still had access to one npc corp for jump clones. That is a pretty good sign that the standing mechanics for jump clones was messed up and fairly unneeded.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#1068 - 2015-09-02 21:17:00 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:
Nothing is random. Analyse something enough and a person can find out why a speck of dust landed where it did. Random is just a way of saying we havent implemented the means to measure or control. Every outcome is guaranteed. We just dont bother with the information and analysis to determine it.

Even the numbers from a lottery. If you know all factors involved, you can guaranteed determine what the results will be.

Until some other physicist showed that some measurements in quantum theory are actually random and that the system would behave completely different if there actually was a way to predict the outcome of the measurement, no matter how much we may understand it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell's_theorem).
babyblue
Solo Sovereignty
#1069 - 2015-09-02 21:21:55 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Markus Reese wrote:
Nothing is random. Analyse something enough and a person can find out why a speck of dust landed where it did. Random is just a way of saying we havent implemented the means to measure or control. Every outcome is guaranteed. We just dont bother with the information and analysis to determine it.

Even the numbers from a lottery. If you know all factors involved, you can guaranteed determine what the results will be.

Until some other physicist showed that some measurements in quantum theory are actually random and that the system would behave completely different if there actually was a way to predict the outcome of the measurement, no matter how much we may understand it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell's_theorem).


Oh what a Pandora's Box you've opened.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#1070 - 2015-09-02 21:23:43 UTC
babyblue wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Markus Reese wrote:
Nothing is random. Analyse something enough and a person can find out why a speck of dust landed where it did. Random is just a way of saying we havent implemented the means to measure or control. Every outcome is guaranteed. We just dont bother with the information and analysis to determine it.

Even the numbers from a lottery. If you know all factors involved, you can guaranteed determine what the results will be.

Until some other physicist showed that some measurements in quantum theory are actually random and that the system would behave completely different if there actually was a way to predict the outcome of the measurement, no matter how much we may understand it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell's_theorem).


Oh what a Pandora's Box you've opened.

I did not open it. That would change the content...
Zihao
Doomheim
#1071 - 2015-09-02 21:34:27 UTC
Terraj wrote:
Recent Changes to "attract new players".

What are these? As a new player, I feel like I should have seen them advertised, but nothing comes to mind.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1072 - 2015-09-02 21:39:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
Zihao wrote:
Terraj wrote:
Recent Changes to "attract new players".

What are these? As a new player, I feel like I should have seen them advertised, but nothing comes to mind.


Well... You had to be here years ago. I was spoiled when I started in 08.

You start in space with a couple NPCs shooting you and told to destroy em.


That is it. No opportunities, career agents, soe epic arc or even basic tutorial. After a bit you usually can find the help menu... Oh... And rookie ship.... Heh heh. Well, it could fit a turret at least!

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
#1073 - 2015-09-02 22:14:06 UTC
Terraj Oknatis wrote:

I liked that the universe was a cold dark place where I had to grind through dumb NPCs forever like a Korean MMO


Missions are one of the crappiest parts of this game, and so many unrelated things were tied into running them. You are interested in PVP and want an empty jumpclone to screw around in null with? Go run missions. You are an industrialist looking to set up your very own space factory? Go run missions. It was stupid.

Terraj Oknatis wrote:

Now if you ask my buddy who only played a month ago.. he absolutely loves that he can research blueprints siting, "the barrier to entry has been broken." When I tell him that he can put up a high sec pos, he probably will do that.


But can he defend his POS? That would be an actual accomplishment. Grinding through dumb NPC rats in hisec over and over is no accomplishment.

Terraj Oknatis wrote:

So now we are in a pickle with the vets yearning for the old way (and quiting in droves) and the new players embracing the new way (rather slowly). What are we to do as a community?


I doubt there are many vets yearning for CCP to force them to run missions in hisec some more.


Zihao
Doomheim
#1074 - 2015-09-02 22:15:54 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:
Zihao wrote:
Terraj wrote:
Recent Changes to "attract new players".

What are these? As a new player, I feel like I should have seen them advertised, but nothing comes to mind.


Well... You had to be here years ago. I was spoiled when I started in 08.

You start in space with a couple NPCs shooting you and told to destroy em.


That is it. No opportunities, career agents, soe epic arc or even basic tutorial. After a bit you usually can find the help menu... Oh... And rookie ship.... Heh heh. Well, it could fit a turret at least!


I have to guess he's talking about something else. What do any of those changes have to do with veteran players?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1075 - 2015-09-02 22:23:49 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
babyblue wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Markus Reese wrote:
Nothing is random. Analyse something enough and a person can find out why a speck of dust landed where it did. Random is just a way of saying we havent implemented the means to measure or control. Every outcome is guaranteed. We just dont bother with the information and analysis to determine it.

Even the numbers from a lottery. If you know all factors involved, you can guaranteed determine what the results will be.

Until some other physicist showed that some measurements in quantum theory are actually random and that the system would behave completely different if there actually was a way to predict the outcome of the measurement, no matter how much we may understand it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell's_theorem).


Oh what a Pandora's Box you've opened.

I did not open it. That would change the content...

This sort of content is troublesome.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
#1076 - 2015-09-02 22:29:10 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:


Well... You had to be here years ago. I was spoiled when I started in 08.

You start in space with a couple NPCs shooting you and told to destroy em.


That is it. No opportunities, career agents, soe epic arc or even basic tutorial. After a bit you usually can find the help menu... Oh... And rookie ship.... Heh heh. Well, it could fit a turret at least!


Yeah, trying to make your videogame more intuitive is dumb. All games should require you to do google searches to figure out how to play them. Actually, CCP should get a bunch of lawyers to force EVE-related content off the internets. Then they can force people to buy boxed copies of the game with an instruction booklet, from Electronics Boutique. They should return the original graphics also. Complete with that awesome scanline effect. That would look amazing on my 15" Packard Bell CRT monitor.
The VC's
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1077 - 2015-09-02 22:44:56 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
babyblue wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Markus Reese wrote:
Nothing is random. Analyse something enough and a person can find out why a speck of dust landed where it did. Random is just a way of saying we havent implemented the means to measure or control. Every outcome is guaranteed. We just dont bother with the information and analysis to determine it.

Even the numbers from a lottery. If you know all factors involved, you can guaranteed determine what the results will be.

Until some other physicist showed that some measurements in quantum theory are actually random and that the system would behave completely different if there actually was a way to predict the outcome of the measurement, no matter how much we may understand it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell's_theorem).


Oh what a Pandora's Box you've opened.

I did not open it. That would change the content...


Big smile Highlight of this thread.
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#1078 - 2015-09-02 23:01:18 UTC
I would say the exact number you get after adding 3 to 5 would be random, if I would not know what those figures (3 and 5) mean.

Do you know meaning of everything?

Do you have capability to perceive everything?

(I can only add that humans opinion on themselves is insignificant, negligible)
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1079 - 2015-09-02 23:42:42 UTC
The VC's wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
babyblue wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Markus Reese wrote:
Nothing is random. Analyse something enough and a person can find out why a speck of dust landed where it did. Random is just a way of saying we havent implemented the means to measure or control. Every outcome is guaranteed. We just dont bother with the information and analysis to determine it.

Even the numbers from a lottery. If you know all factors involved, you can guaranteed determine what the results will be.

Until some other physicist showed that some measurements in quantum theory are actually random and that the system would behave completely different if there actually was a way to predict the outcome of the measurement, no matter how much we may understand it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell's_theorem).


Oh what a Pandora's Box you've opened.

I did not open it. That would change the content...


Big smile Highlight of this thread.


My personal view is the Copenhagen Interpretation is some sort of Kierkegaardian plot.
Terraj Oknatis
Project Sanctuary
#1080 - 2015-09-02 23:52:49 UTC
I have not yet experienced this so called 'entosis link'

Is it all you hoped for?