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Decline in numbers... starting to turn into RAPID!!!

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Whitehound
#981 - 2015-09-01 22:05:27 UTC
Jill Xelitras wrote:
You may not be able to predict what others do, but it's not random what they do.

Sure, but to an observer who does not know when it happens is it random.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#982 - 2015-09-01 22:05:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Whitehound wrote:
No. You are implying that the players would somehow have a control over the outcome, which they do not.
In other words, it's not really a competition, so neither the term “PvE” nor the term “PvP” applies — it's not anything versus anything. It is just a lottery.

The only conceivable opposition (and that's using a spectacular stretch of the term) is that of other players who might be after the same prize, At no point are you competing against or trying to beat any kind of environment, especially not the AI implied by the term PvE.

Quote:
Sure, but to an observer who does not know when it happens is it random.
No, it's not. It's just unknown. Random is something completely different and no matter who the observer is, it does not apply to what's happening in this scenario.

Quote:
Tippia has so far conceded twice and I have stopped taking her seriously. She has repeatedly failed to provide proof and is refusing to answer my questions. Now she is answering in a language I cannot read.
…except that none of that actually happened. That's just you inventing more nonsense, as was pointed out every time you did it.

So we're going to go back to the countdown thing you so sincerely loathe because it always exposes the sheer lunacy of your lack of argument. You have three chances before I answer the question for you by offering the only rational response that can be constructed from your incoherent dribbling.

First chance: at what?
Salvos Rhoska
#983 - 2015-09-01 22:06:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Whitehound wrote:
---

I do not imply things. I say what I mean and mean what I say.

I explained 4 different lottery systems in detail.

In anyone of them in which you either have to compete with others for the winnings (number lottery), or in which you can increase your own odds against others and/or deny entry into the drawing by others (scratchcard/raffle), it is PvP.

In the number lottery, the more players there are, the greater the likelihood is that you will have to share your winnings with others, as someone gets as many right as you. You are therefore competing with others. The more PLAYERS there are, the less your winnings are, regardless of any PvE element. Players alone, entirely, determine this attrition in your possible winnings. Your competitive influence is small, and largely arbitrary, since there is no way to predict the numbers, but its result is there nonetheless, as a player based competition which reduces the winnings of others, and vice versa.

In raffle/scratchcard, the inverse also illustrates the same essential PvP nature.
If NOBODY else participates in the draw, or you buy ALL the tickets, then you automatically win.

This demonstrates there is no "environment" element (PvE) which competes against you or prevents you.
You simply auto-win, when there is no other player involvement.
That is proof positive of the essential PvP nature of these.

Slotmachines, however, are PvE. Ill give you that.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#984 - 2015-09-01 22:06:22 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


No it's not. There are plenty of us not exploiting, scamming or griefing, but we understand that those things (and learning to fight against them) is what makes EVE great. You say you are 'tired of where the game has gone" but as the rest of us have told you, you are mistaken, the game has always been there, you simply ignored it (easy to do when you aren't even here most of the time).
Twisted


That is my favorite multiplayer bit to Eve. Being an honest and community oriented player. I have an Oracle fit up whose entire usage is the SoE epic arc. I it is fit fast with a high rate of fire and tracking, but uses the dual heavy pulses and no damage mods. When rookies need help, I show up in that flashy lightshow. They get their help, and work with something fun. To a new player in a frigate, it is an impressive ship to see without stealing their fun.

I also love to teach anti-grief (Grief Blueballing) to non pvp players. It is pvp as well. It is fits that steals their fun. They can get ganks and kills, but makes it more expensive and less assured. As result, both parties have fun and a challenge. Any time you can teach the highsec/anti pvp people how to have fun in a PvP envirionment without sacrificing their play style? Wins all around.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#985 - 2015-09-01 22:07:33 UTC
I would argue that Lotteries usually lack any skilled or informed input justifying the label of PvE or PvP.

If you don't have to use a skill or knowledge against an AI or living being, there's just P, but no vE or vP. Sure you can improve your outcome or hedge against losses in some chance based games ... but that's it. If the winning number is determined by luck, then you have no influence over what number will be drawn. So no PvE, no PvP.

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
Avvy
Doomheim
#986 - 2015-09-01 22:19:51 UTC
I think I know the reason why players leave.

Due to players arguing about what is PvP and what is PvE on the forums.




Well ok, my comment is tongue-in-cheek but at least it's on topic.
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#987 - 2015-09-01 22:20:26 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Jill Xelitras wrote:
You may not be able to predict what others do, but it's not random what they do.

Sure, but to an observer who does not know when it happens is it random.


Dude, I once saw two ships in space. One went "pew, pew, pew" and the other went "poof". As a random observer who has no clue what's going on, I must assume that this was totally random.

The perception of somebody who's ignorent of the underlying rules / motivations is certainly no proof of absence of such rules / motivations. To a blind person, colors are meaningless ... so colors don't exist, right ? (Actually this is true, colors don't exist, we only see different parts of the visible light reflected. Without light, there are no colors.)

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
Salvos Rhoska
#988 - 2015-09-01 22:23:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Jill Xelitras wrote:
If the winning number is determined by luck, then you have no influence over what number will be drawn. So no PvE, no PvP.

Barring the metaphysics of luck, and whether its somehow possible to prognosticate the winning numbers as implausible and certainly unproven, there still remains one element that ultimately determines even a number lottery as PvP.

Since there is no PvE element to influence, and the odds are equal, the remaining determinant on the result is statistical number of player participants. The more players there are, the more incidence of two players halving each others winnings there is. They end up, competetively, though inadvertently, competing with each other and blocking each other.

Its a bit of hairsplitting, but when all other elements are equal and balanced outnof the equation as above, player participation (effectively against each others interests) remains the determining factor on the outcome.

If you are the only one playing in the lottery, you will receive 100% of your win, depending on "how well you play" in terms of choosing the right numbers.

If, however, there is even 1 other player, your chances of a 100% payout are reduced.
If there are 10 million participants, they drop even further, due to player based competition in that lottery system.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Whitehound
#989 - 2015-09-01 22:27:25 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
I do not imply things.

Sure you did. You did imply a split.

There is then still no PvP in your lottery, because you do not give control to the players. The only control they have is if they want to take part or not. Once they are taking part is there no control - as you say it is it auto-winning. Once a player buys a ticket do they also consent to the process and cannot sue you or in some other way influence the outcome. The players are just leaning back and watching the show.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
#990 - 2015-09-01 22:30:56 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Throth wrote:
My last post since I finally have Eve installed and can delete this toon. My response is to the original poster from my perspective as to why I left Eve after over 10 years: I like PVE, and Eve always had a place for it. Slowly over time, to what seemed to me an attempt to keep PvPers and gankers happy, CCP stopped fighting against griefing and started allowing it. Safe PvE became less and less possible without taking great strides in protecting yourself from griefers. My last resort was hauling, but not in a player corp - because until recently Awoxxing would happen. So I had to stay in a NPC corp and do contracts... until Hypedunking. After an unsuccessful hyperdunking against my freighter, I realized that I'm just tired of where this game has gone. The idea of trusting no one while at the same time making in a world where you have to be able to rely on someone else to survive is illogical. Just reading the forums and reading how quick this community is to defend griefers and griefing says a lot about the quality of character this game retains. This game is not for me. I won't miss it for a second, and the community here won't miss me or anyone like me. Have fun scamming, exploiting and griefing each other. That's Eve's legacy now.



No it's not. There are plenty of us not exploiting, scamming or griefing, but we understand that those things (and learning to fight against them) is what makes EVE great. You say you are 'tired of where the game has gone" but as the rest of us have told you, you are mistaken, the game has always been there, you simply ignored it (easy to do when you aren't even here most of the time).

It is good at least that you understand that EVE isn't for you, but that's where your smarts end. Good luck in whatever safe ego stroking entertainment you choose for your self, real PVErs will still be here thumbing our noses at the very same people who forced you out of a video game.

PS, could you take Lucas Kell with you? He can probably get you a trial to Elite, which he apparently likes more than EVE. Twisted


You see Jenn, our apathetic attitude won't appeal to everyone, I think eve numbers drop partly because of player actions.

Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
Whitehound
#991 - 2015-09-01 22:35:00 UTC
Jill Xelitras wrote:
... Without light, there are no colors.)

One can usually not know when others buy items or when orders change. Can we please agree that it is random?

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#992 - 2015-09-01 22:35:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Whitehound wrote:
There is then still no PvP in your lottery, because you do not give control to the players. The only control they have is if they want to take part or not. Once they are taking part is there no control - as you say it is it auto-winning. Once a player buys a ticket do they also consent to the process and cannot sue you or in some other way influence the outcome. The players are just leaning back and watching the show.

…in other words (Jill's to be exact) it is only P. There is no vP or vE in it — just a decision to play. At least as long as it is that type of lottery. If there is any additional choice or decision, it becomes PvP. At no point is it ever PvE, much less anything as contradictory as “competitive PvE.

Quote:
One can usually not know when others buy items or when orders change. Can we please agree that it is random
Sure you can. It's quite easy and built into the UI. And even if it wasn't, why should anyone agree that it's random when it is anything but?
Salvos Rhoska
#993 - 2015-09-01 22:38:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Whitehound wrote:
Once a player buys a ticket do they also consent to the process and cannot sue you or in some other way influence the outcome. The players are just leaning back and watching the show.

Yes, the extent of their participation is very limited.

But it is nonetheless competetive participation in that game system, with those limited options, of an entirely player based nature, as demonstrated in my post here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6010389#post6010389

Its PvP, because the only factor that effects the result of the game system, is the statistical number of player participants.
That determines the payout, in terms of the more players there are, the more likely they will block someone elses win, and have to share that win with them, rather than having it for themself, if there was no other player in the game system.

(Infact, there is a further competetive PvP element, which is that the next lottery is comprised of the investment of losing players from the last round. Meaning in the next round, everyone is concretely playing to win what other players lost. The more other players lose in their participation, the greater the win is for players in the next round. Their failed competition feeds the next round of competition, for another player to win, in competetive participation.)

If I am the only one playing, and I get the maximum numbers right, I win the whole jackpot.
But if I am playing with 10 million other people, the chances are much higher someone else will also get the maximum numbers right, and I will have to split my win with them.

So PLAYERS (or rather, their quantity, but players nonetheless) determine the final result and outcome.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Salvos Rhoska
#994 - 2015-09-01 22:49:37 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
One can usually not know when others buy items or when orders change. Can we please agree that it is random?

Do you think the global commodities markets are "random"?

Do you describe the global commodities markets as PvP, or PvE?

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#995 - 2015-09-01 22:58:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Xelitras
Whitehound wrote:
Jill Xelitras wrote:
... Without light, there are no colors.)

One can usually not know when others buy items or when orders change. Can we please agree that it is random?


from your post 966:
Quote:
When a buyer will buy your items or when a competitor changes their orders is also chance based. There is no guarantee for a sell order to always go through.


The time when an order will be modified may be difficult to predict, but it is not chance based. So, seemingly random but not random. There is a difference between how it is percieved and how it really is.

... and most certainly not chance based !

... and no we did not evolve from chimpanzees if you wondered.



edit: definition of random
1Made, done, or happening without method or conscious decision

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#996 - 2015-09-01 23:06:34 UTC
Avvy wrote:
I think I know the reason why players leave.

Due to players arguing about what is PvP and what is PvE on the forums.


Well ok, my comment is tongue-in-cheek but at least it's on topic.


Less tongue in cheek than you think... Gaming politics can be a huge turnoff. Is why having "npc corp" is so vital. Some just hate the bicker and such that can come with some alliances and corp.

Are valid debates however. Before todays semantics, this thread was going very well in the discussion of what is valued to pve and pvp players. Unfortunate that got derailed. There what common ground being found and ideas that would resove pvpers issue wih pvp life anf the versa without affecting either.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Ima GoodGirl
Aria Shi's Wasted ISK
#997 - 2015-09-01 23:07:40 UTC
Jill Xelitras wrote:
... and no we did not evolve from chimpanzees if you wondered.

This thread is now a good example of that. There has been no evolution.

We're still chimps.

Or maybe it's chumps. I forget.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#998 - 2015-09-01 23:13:56 UTC
Ima GoodGirl wrote:
Jill Xelitras wrote:
... and no we did not evolve from chimpanzees if you wondered.

This thread is now a good example of that. There has been no evolution.

We're still chimps.

Or maybe it's chumps. I forget.

Chomps?
Cancel Align NOW
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#999 - 2015-09-01 23:19:15 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Jill Xelitras wrote:
... Without light, there are no colors.)

One can usually not know when others buy items or when orders change. Can we please agree that it is random?


It is not random. We can not know the instances when things occur, but they occur for specific reasons.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1000 - 2015-09-01 23:22:17 UTC
Yoink.