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Decline in numbers... starting to turn into RAPID!!!

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Salvos Rhoska
#721 - 2015-09-01 10:14:20 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
---


Define the following three concisely:

1) PvE:

2) PvP:

3) Competetive PvE:

Ill wait.
This is not a rhetorical request.
I expect actual answers.

2/3 strikes, and counting.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#722 - 2015-09-01 10:15:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Whitehound wrote:
Well, at least you are considering loss to be something very common in PvP. That is a step forward.
No. It's actually complete lack of motion on my part — it's just that you are slowly beginning to understand what “PvP” stands for.

Quote:
But why is it now no longer relevant
It never was. All that ever mattered was that it was another player, which it always is.

Quote:
Seems very irrational what you are saying here.
That's because you irrationally believe that knowing who did something is a necessary condition for knowing that someone did it. This is not the case — it's entirely possible to know the latter without knowing the former.
Estevan Valladares
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#723 - 2015-09-01 10:15:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Estevan Valladares
Quote:
You dont know because you never experienced it.


That is so famous as a fallacy that it has a latin name: Ad verecundiam

Edit: It was time to change the profile. That one had reached 100 posts.

WorldTradersGuild.Com [WTG] - We are here for the long haul
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#724 - 2015-09-01 10:16:45 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
No. It is not that simple
Yes it is.

Is the opposition “the environment” (which in computer game terms means the AI)? → PvE
Is the opposition other players? → PvP

There is no environment in the market, only other players. Thus the market is PvP. ...

No, because then by your definition would PvP in space ships be PvE, too, because these are an environment around a player's pod and you are only activating modules. However, we know it is not true, because it feels personal to us.

The reason for this is that we actually recognize the other player by his space ship, because we can see the player's name attached to the space ship and it becomes a representation for the player. We can also associate the player's presence with the space ship, we know he is in the system, and we can see his name in local, too (most of the times). And we know that the struggle we have and the loss we might suffer is directly caused by this player and we get it confirmed in killmails.

On the market do you not know who the other player is. You do not know where he is or if he is even online. There is no recognition taking place, but the fight you are having is at best an imagination in your head against a fictive player. You also give up your item to the environment when you place it for sale (it is being taken out of your hangar and held by the environment until a buyer is found) and the environment gives you a price guarantee for it so that you will never make a loss. The seller can then completely detach from the situation and go offline. All that is left for you to fight is the environment. (snip)


The market is not how you represent it.

1. I know what is sold by NPC and what is sold by players. So I know exactly when I'm competing with other players to sell my stuff.

2. It doesn't always matter to know exactly whom I'm playing against. Similar to large fleet fights, I don't really care who the next primary is as long as I'm shooting the primary. On the market I just care about selling my stuff, regardless whom I'm competing against ... except when I have the same offer undercut me.

3. Can I identify another player on the market ? Yes I can: I buy one item and check my wallet transaction.

4. Can I know when a specific character is online ? Yes I can: I watchlist him in my contact list.

5. Can I know where a specific character is ? Yes I can: I run a locator agent.

When I had a character in FW, I produced and sold shuttles in a low-sec staging station. This was mainly to allow FW pilots to fly relatively safely through Amamake and to Rens to reship. So I sold the shuttles at double the build cost, roughly 24 000 ISK. You don't get rich from that.

Anyway, one fine day somebody had bought my entire offer of 200 shuttles and relisted them at 50 000 ISK. I checked my inventory: 1000 shuttles left. So I put another 200 shuttles on the market at the price I considered fair and reasonable, 24 000 ISK.
I knew he couldn't match or undercut my price without making a loss, because I knew exactly at what price he had bought his shuttles and that he didn't have that many spare shuttles lying around.

That's not a huge achievemement on my part, but proof enough that the market is not as you depict it.

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
Samir Duran Xadi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#725 - 2015-09-01 10:28:10 UTC
I don't think anybody is coming back for winter. We'll be seeing 35k max during holiday period Sad
Whitehound
#726 - 2015-09-01 10:29:44 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Quote:
But why is it now no longer relevant
It never was. All that ever mattered was that it was another player, which it always is.

So your own argument is irrelevant?!?

I still do not see an attack happening. I do not know who or if anyone is attacking me and I do not see any loss either. I am still in full possession of the items. And in the event that I sell them do I then not get exactly what I have been asking for?

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Salvos Rhoska
#727 - 2015-09-01 10:31:05 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
---


Define the following three concisely:

1) PvE:

2) PvP:

3) Competetive PvE:

This is not a rhetorical request.
I expect actual answers.

This is your final chance.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Nevase Prometeus
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#728 - 2015-09-01 10:34:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevase Prometeus
My game time will end in mid september. And I decide to quit EVE. Because I like PVE more than PVP and don't wnat to be just prey for some PVP players . I just want to pay EVE in my style after trying for 2 years Eve still cannot support my style .

I think I pay money for my fun not for to another player's fun. That'all

All I need is just play my game without any interupt from another players so when EVE cannot support my requirements , I just looking for another choices. My money my choice. That's simple easy decision.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#729 - 2015-09-01 10:36:09 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
So your own argument is irrelevant?!?
No, largely because you've completely lost track of what my argument is.

Quote:
I still do not see an attack happening. I do not know who or if anyone is attacking me and I do not see any loss either.
That's because, as you and others have satisfactorily demonstrated, you don't understand how the market works.

You are being attacked and you are seeing loss because you are using the market. It comes with the territory. Just because you don't look into who it is doesn't keep it from happening (and even if you did look into it, that still wouldn't change anything).
Whitehound
#730 - 2015-09-01 10:38:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Estevan Valladares wrote:
Quote:
You dont know because you never experienced it.


That is so famous as a fallacy that it has a latin name: Ad verecundiam

Edit: It was time to change the profile. That one had reached 100 posts.

Oh please, spare me this nonsense. If somebody were to tell you everything there is to know about sex, would you there claim to have experienced it? Just because you know a few words in a dead language does not automatically make it all true. Roll

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Estevan Valladares
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#731 - 2015-09-01 10:40:02 UTC
Nevase Prometeus wrote:
My game time will end in mid september. And I decide to quit EVE. Because I like PVE more than PVP and don't wnat to be just prey for some PVP players . I just want to pay EVE in my style after trying for 2 years Eve still cannot support my style .

I think I pay money for my fun not for to another player's fun. That'all


That is what I meant.

You know that the fact that a player owns a Customs Office make people go elsewhere for PI, or quit altogether just because they dont want to pay for a player, even if paying for a players means paying less.

And you get someone making campaing about making EVE better by taxing people more to stay in NPC corps and HiSec.

That is an issue. Due to the rewarded unfriendly nature of players, that is how most people perceives PvP.

That is a CCP or game problem ? No. That is a playerbase problem.

WorldTradersGuild.Com [WTG] - We are here for the long haul
Whitehound
#732 - 2015-09-01 10:40:36 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
---


Define the following three concisely:

1) PvE:

2) PvP:

3) Competetive PvE:

This is not a rhetorical request.
I expect actual answers.

This is your final chance.

Please do not spam. I already wrote it several times. Read it or do not read. Just do not get ISD in here.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Salvos Rhoska
#733 - 2015-09-01 10:42:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Whitehound wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
---


Define the following three concisely:

1) PvE:

2) PvP:

3) Competetive PvE:

This is not a rhetorical request.
I expect actual answers.


Please do not spam. I already wrote it several times. Read it or do not read. Just do not get ISD in here.


You have not answered the questions above concisely here, as requested 3 times.

Thanks.

Either you are unable to answer 3 simple and direct questions, or are so disingenuous and dishonest that you refuse to.

In either case, you have lost.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Whitehound
#734 - 2015-09-01 10:48:53 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
I still do not see an attack happening. I do not know who or if anyone is attacking me and I do not see any loss either.
That's because, as you and others have satisfactorily demonstrated, you don't understand how the market works.

You are being attacked and you are seeing loss because you are using the market. It comes with the territory. Just because you don't look into who it is doesn't keep it from happening (and even if you did look into it, that still wouldn't change anything).

Have you yet considered that your understanding of the market is perhaps only a derivation of the PvP around it and that the competitive PvE is a tool within a PvP game?

Do you allow any of EVE's content to be classed as PVE and competitive PVE, and if so which content is it?

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#735 - 2015-09-01 11:00:46 UTC
Nevase Prometeus wrote:
My game time will end in mid september. And I decide to quit EVE. Because I like PVE more than PVP and don't wnat to be just prey for some PVP players . I just want to pay EVE in my style after trying for 2 years Eve still cannot support my style .

I think I pay money for my fun not for to another player's fun. That'all

All I need is just play my game without any interupt from another players so when EVE cannot support my requirements , I just looking for another choices. My money my choice. That's simple easy decision.



It took you 2 years to figure this out? Better late than never.

You never had the mindset to be an EVE PVEr, with the exception of some (not all) of our less courageous high sec bros, the hall mark of an EVE PVE jock is ENJOYING the fact that you will succeed against opposition. Any idiot (or monkey) can shoot npcs or play a hacking mini-game, it takes real nerve and creativity to do those things while actual human beings are trying to kill you outside of high sec. In some cases it takes even more nerve to do it in high sec against game mechanics experts like CODE.

Good luck in whatever stale protected themepark you finally land at.
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#736 - 2015-09-01 11:04:00 UTC
Whitehound wrote:


So who attacked my orders? And what is my loss? Can you tell?


Let's assume you put a sell order.

Whatever you're selling has a market value: the price that somebody else is willing to pay to get that item. You usually gather that info from historic sales, but also from current buy and sell orders.

If you put your item for sale at a ludicrous price, you're less likely to sell it anytime. It's like standing at the starter line of a race and not moving when the start signal is giving. It's not by the nature of the race that you're not competing, but simply by the fact that you're not moving.

If you put your item for sale just below the lowest sell order, you're leading the competition. If somebody wants to buy the item, yours is going to be picked and all the other ones have to wait. This can be particularly annoying in items trading at very low volumes.

If your sell order gets undercut all the time, you're losing that opportunity to sell. Now you may decide to push your item back to the front of the line by undercutting the other sell orders. Now you're potentially losing ISK. The further you lower the price, below what you initially thought was reasonable, the more ISK you lose when the sale actually happens.

The fun part about the market is that it is for the most part not a win all / lose all situation. And yet sometimes it gets rough, the market for one item crashes and you can only sell at a loss or try to manipulate the market, or even move your items to a different location.



Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
Estevan Valladares
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#737 - 2015-09-01 11:09:33 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Nevase Prometeus wrote:
My game time will end in mid september. And I decide to quit EVE. Because I like PVE more than PVP and don't wnat to be just prey for some PVP players . I just want to pay EVE in my style after trying for 2 years Eve still cannot support my style .

I think I pay money for my fun not for to another player's fun. That'all

All I need is just play my game without any interupt from another players so when EVE cannot support my requirements , I just looking for another choices. My money my choice. That's simple easy decision.



It took you 2 years to figure this out? Better late than never.

You never had the mindset to be an EVE PVEr, with the exception of some (not all) of our less courageous high sec bros, the hall mark of an EVE PVE jock is ENJOYING the fact that you will succeed against opposition. Any idiot (or monkey) can shoot npcs or play a hacking mini-game, it takes real nerve and creativity to do those things while actual human beings are trying to kill you outside of high sec. In some cases it takes even more nerve to do it in high sec against game mechanics experts like CODE.

Good luck in whatever stale protected themepark you finally land at.


Now that is some ridiculously prejudicial assumption from another example of "I want people to enjoy the game the way I want".

Granted that EVE is a game of completition and you must be read for that.

But PVP in EVE does not require any more brains than shot NPCs. And CODE is the least of the concerns in EVE. You can spend hours and hours daily in EVE, travelling through Uedama, Niarja, and Halaima for that matter, without even having to aknowledge CODE existance.

Anyone who says PVP in EVE require any sort of capacity that is not required in PVE is just plain full of ****.

WorldTradersGuild.Com [WTG] - We are here for the long haul
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#738 - 2015-09-01 11:24:52 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Define the following three concisely:

1) PvE:

2) PvP:

3) Competitive PvE:
Having not bothered reading most of the thread and just skimmed I'm not sure what these are related to entirely but they are pretty straightforward, though categorising activities tends to differ between people.

PvE: When you are directly competing with NPCs with your mechanic.
PvP: When you are directly competing with and interacting with players
Competitive PvE: When you are directly competing with NPCs but indirectly competing with and interacting with players.

An example of each:
PvE: Missions - you only interact with NPCs, missions are generated for you.
PvP: Shooting another player
Competitive PvE: Mining, Anoms - There are limited amounts of these and so you indirectly fight over them.

Trading is PvP.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Whitehound
#739 - 2015-09-01 11:26:31 UTC
Jill Xelitras wrote:
Whitehound wrote:


So who attacked my orders? And what is my loss? Can you tell?


Let's assume you put a sell order.

Whatever you're selling has a market value: the price that somebody else is willing to pay to get that item. You usually gather that info from historic sales, but also from current buy and sell orders.

If you put your item for sale at a ludicrous price, you're less likely to sell it anytime. It's like standing at the starter line of a race and not moving when the start signal is giving. It's not by the nature of the race that you're not competing, but simply by the fact that you're not moving.

If you put your item for sale just below the lowest sell order, you're leading the competition. If somebody wants to buy the item, yours is going to be picked and all the other ones have to wait. This can be particularly annoying in items trading at very low volumes.

If your sell order gets undercut all the time, you're losing that opportunity to sell. Now you may decide to push your item back to the front of the line by undercutting the other sell orders. Now you're potentially losing ISK. The further you lower the price, below what you initially thought was reasonable, the more ISK you lose when the sale actually happens.

The fun part about the market is that it is for the most part not a win all / lose all situation. And yet sometimes it gets rough, the market for one item crashes and you can only sell at a loss or try to manipulate the market, or even move your items to a different location.

Sure, but you are merely describing the loss condition for a game of competitive PvE, not for PvP.

The rules may tell you that you have lost, other players may tell you that you have lost, but you do not actually experience a loss. Nor can one lose what one never had. If the item is gone due to a sale will you always get the price you have asked for. If and how much more you could have gotten is merely a speculation and does not need to be true.

In PvP do you lose by having made an actual loss, not just because some rule says so or other players tell you so. You will have lost your ship and with it the value it had and the effort required to obtain it. In EVE is the value of your loss then shown in a killmail (even when those numbers are not always accurate is CCP still trying to give you an estimate of the value).

Those are two different things. One is losing, because you did not gain anything, the other being losing by having actually lost something.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Lennox Dantes
The Tyde
#740 - 2015-09-01 11:52:25 UTC
The game is stale. CCP now makes it super easy for you to do everything yourself. CCP has nerfed non - consensual pvp so much that the game is becoming unplayable. The only thing that differentiated Eve from every other game on the market was the danger. The danger is almost completely non existent.

1. Bring back old Jet Can Flagging rules.
2. Nerf drone boats
3. Reduce ore capacities.

Make high sec more dangerous so there is a point to join a corp, so moving to low sec and null sec isn't such a terrifying jump for carebears.

Or just keep trying to dumb down the game and continue getting the same results.