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Decline in numbers... starting to turn into RAPID!!!

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Aaron
Eternal Frontier
#561 - 2015-08-31 15:09:25 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Aaron wrote:
Noob: You killed my exhumer, it took ages for me to grind for that.

Ganker: Who gives a ****, go and play WOW, or hello kitty online.

Noob: Ok I will, Bye.
It normally goes as follows:

Noob: Incoherent rant casting aspersions on your parenthood, involving forced sexual relations with your mother, your kids and your pets, followed by threats of violence, arson, and other things that are completely out of proportion to the loss of some pixels.

Ganker: Go back to WoW and play with the other children you worthless scrub, Eve is for adults.




Good point, now multiply your post by about 4000, that's 4000 people not in the game anymore.

Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
Salvos Rhoska
#562 - 2015-08-31 15:11:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Avvy wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
And if you want to call it PvP instead, because somewhere did someone make a better profit then be my guest. It is just not my definition of it. Stay docked.


Do you consider real world commodities markets to be PvE?


Do you consider them to be something you compete in or a conflict?


Remember gaming terms aren't always seen in the same way as things in RL.


Is this addressed to Whitehound or me?

On my part I consider the real world commodities market to involve competition, certainly, and conflict depending on how synonymous you perceive the two concepts as being alongside their specific connotations, in context.

I carry that to EVE economic markets also, and classify both as effectively PvP, though the real world is ofc, not a game.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#563 - 2015-08-31 15:12:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Vol Arm'OOO
Aaron wrote:
Ok Here is my 2 cents worth.

Too many Eve players are bullies and you pick on weaker pilots till they get frustrated with the game and leave. I wish more of you would consider that your own actions contribute to people leaving.

This is a dark and brutal experience where there is no sympathy for anything, not everyone can handle this vibe so be mindful of this when you want to blame CCP for numbers dropping.

I am not complaining about dark and brutal, I like it and enjoy avoiding it or finding tactics to counter it. I've prepared a small role play to push my point further;

Noob: You killed my exhumer, it took ages for me to grind for that.

Ganker: Who gives a ****, go and play WOW, or hello kitty online.

Noob: Ok I will, Bye.

This is the norm in Eve, accept that your actions have consequence and accept that it is partly you who shapes the game and affects numbers.


I would agree with this sentiment except for the fact that for years eve increased its subs and online user numbers while still being a harsh place. In fact, that was eve's niche and how it was marketed. As soon as the current crop of devs decided to say "f-it! we are going after the causal player," things started to fall apart. The casual player is fickle and they have lots of choices for games with solid pve. In fact most games out there have better pve then eve. CCP has started driving away its core players, but is still unable to bring in and keep causal players in sufficient numbers to offset the decline. While it may be counter intuitive - CCPs best chance to increase subs again is to embrace its past, to go back to being a hardcore niche game.

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#564 - 2015-08-31 15:14:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Whitehound wrote:
No. Another player can simply not make you lose items in trading.
Sure they can.
There's half a subforum devoted to this subtle and funny art. And that's if we operate under the false assumption that all the market is is items. There's more to it than that, you know… or maybe you don't.

Just because you're once again confused about how the game works and about what words mean does not change that this hasn't been possible in EVE since day 1. Indeed, the entire game is built around this being a possibility.

Quote:
This is what competitive PvE is about.
No. That's what PvP is about: beating the player (the second P in PvP) opposing or competing with you, rather than some artificial opposition created by the computer (the E in PvE). “Competitive PvE” does not exist in EVE except maybe in the form of shipspinning bragging rights.


Aaron wrote:
Good point, now multiply your post by about 4000, that's 4000 people not in the game anymore.

Good.
Avvy
Doomheim
#565 - 2015-08-31 15:18:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Tippia wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
No. Another player can simply not make you lose items in trading.
Sure they can.
There's half a subforum devoted to this subtle and funny art. And that's if we operate under the false assumption that all the market is is items. There's more to it than that, you know… or maybe you don't.

Just because you're once again confused about how the game works and about what words mean does not change that this hasn't been possible in EVE since day 1. Indeed, the entire game is built around this being a possibility.




Are you referring to the margin-trading scam by any chance?


Edit:
Ok, forget that, that scam just makes you buy stuff in the hope of selling it quickly for a profit.
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
#566 - 2015-08-31 15:19:29 UTC  |  Edited by: xxxTRUSTxxx
Jenn aSide wrote:
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Getting hung up on semantics doesn't help anyone. A person competing in some way with another person is PVP. Some things can be pvp and pve at the exact same time.

Lastly, the term 'competitive pve' is dumb.


why?

i guess you never hung out in an arcade holding champion on space invaders or centipede? no?

competitive PVE Shocked yes young man,, or woman Roll long ago,, in a gaming enviroment called an arcade this actually happened.


Young? I'm probably older than you, and yes I played games in arcades (usually at a mall) starting in the late 70s. If i could have back all the quarters I stuffed into a Galaga machine, I'd be rich (correction, my dad would be rich, they were his quarters).

Playing any of those games competitively was PVP (even if the term hadn't been invented yet), you were competing for highest score against another person, even if you had to take turns and weren't directly playing against another person. Trying to invent a new term when the current (more simple and descriptive) term works is dumb. It basically means people have to much time on their hands.


47 here,, we gotta be close on age, galaga was a great game. i should have shares in Atari and capcom for the amount of cash i poured into them machines, but come on,, the combat took place within a computer controlled enviroment that neither player could influence while the other was playing.
does it matter what name people put on it. it's all down to the player, some feel the need to be competitive, others don't even know they or realise it. i couldn.t care if ya called it HVHWATA (human vs human when agreed they are. ) lol feck that's horrible hahaha
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#567 - 2015-08-31 15:19:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Aaron wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Aaron wrote:
Noob: You killed my exhumer, it took ages for me to grind for that.

Ganker: Who gives a ****, go and play WOW, or hello kitty online.

Noob: Ok I will, Bye.
It normally goes as follows:

Noob: Incoherent rant casting aspersions on your parenthood, involving forced sexual relations with your mother, your kids and your pets, followed by threats of violence, arson, and other things that are completely out of proportion to the loss of some pixels.

Ganker: Go back to WoW and play with the other children you worthless scrub, Eve is for adults.




Good point, now multiply your post by about 4000, that's 4000 people not in the game anymore.
Good riddance TBH.

People who make real life threats over the loss of some pixels seem to have issues separating reality from fantasy; there's a medical term for that behavior, one that is often misused by those who do have this issue, to describe those of us that don't.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Salvos Rhoska
#568 - 2015-08-31 15:20:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Whitehound wrote:
You then did compete, but lost in the competition, but you still own the item. All you really have lost is your expectation of a profit.

You lost the competition, and the profit, to another player, due to their actions against yours and in interaction with yours, towards that end.

That is PvP.

It is other players you are competing against, not the AI.

Its inherently, integrally and utterly PvP.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Whitehound
#569 - 2015-08-31 15:22:34 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
No. Another player can simply not make you lose items in trading.
Sure they can.

Then, please, make me lose something. I do have market orders up. Show me how you are going to make me lose my stuff.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Salvos Rhoska
#570 - 2015-08-31 15:25:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Whitehound wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
No. Another player can simply not make you lose items in trading.
Sure they can.

Then, please, make me lose something. I do have market orders up. Show me how you are going to make me lose my stuff.


"Losing stuff" is not a condition of PvP.

Just about every FPS is PvP, but involves no "loss of stuff" whatsoever.

LoL is PvP, but again, does not involve any "loss of stuff" whatsoever.

If I play badminton or tennis against you, its PvP, but involves no "loss of stuff" whatsoever.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#571 - 2015-08-31 15:25:39 UTC
Aaron wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:

Aaron wrote:
Ok Here is my 2 cents worth.

Too many Eve players are bullies and you pick on weaker pilots till they get frustrated with the game and leave. I wish more of you would consider that your own actions contribute to people leaving.


CCP Rise wrote:
We have tried and tried to validate the myth that griefing has a pronounced affect on new players - we have failed.




What I speak of is natural human emotion. No one really wants to be in an environment where they feel pushed around and bullied. And it is not just new players that don't like the way things are.

If there has been 1000s of forum posts relating to people being alienated from the game because its so brutal then it's wise to accept this will have an effect on numbers. I've been playing for 12 years and I've read the forums consistently, I know the way most of you deal with whine threads it is negative and non constructive, because of this people leave.




If you feel that way, why play for 12 years? And if someone can feel "bullied' playing a video game that is about CONQUEST and POWER et all, they made a poor personal choice, now didn't they?

It's all about mindset, I've been ejected from null sec 6 times by my count, 3 of those times by Goons (for the record, didn't want that Tribute or Vale of the Silent anyways). That pushing wasn't bullying, any more than someone charging me rent because i landed on Park Place in monopoly is.

This is a game. It isn't about being 'nice' or 'sympathetic' to people (though this is a personal choice you can make, nothing wrong with doing that). If a person doesn't like Brutal situations, they shouldn't play brutal games.
Whitehound
#572 - 2015-08-31 15:26:48 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
"Losing stuff" is not a condition of PvP.

Then what is?

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Salvos Rhoska
#573 - 2015-08-31 15:29:00 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
"Losing stuff" is not a condition of PvP.

Then what is?

Player interacting against other players interests, competetively.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Whitehound
#574 - 2015-08-31 15:30:26 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
"Losing stuff" is not a condition of PvP.

Then what is?

Player interacting against other players interests, competetively.

No, because that is just as much the definition of competitive PvE.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#575 - 2015-08-31 15:30:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Whitehound wrote:
Then, please, make me lose something. I do have market orders up.
Then you are already competing with other players, and you've most likely lost something in the last 5 minutes.

Quote:
Then what is?
That you are competing against other players over something, as opposed to having AI entities as your opposition: that's why it is called PvP — player vs. player.

Quote:
No, because that is just as much the definition of competitive PvE.
No, because in that case, you are not competing against other players' interest — hence why it's called PvE: player vs. environment.
There is no “E” in the player vs. player competition that goes on on the market.

But again, this is just you trying to invent and redefine existing terms just so you can be right, rather than accept that it means almost the exact opposite of what you want.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#576 - 2015-08-31 15:32:50 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
"Losing stuff" is not a condition of PvP.

Then what is?


I was confounded by what you posted to, you're saying that market pvp wasn't pvp because you couldn't lose a ship or pod because of it.

That makes no sense. Pvp in EVe online is (at it's core) one human being sitting in front of some kind of computer playing against some other person on another computer. Loss has zero to do with it, you could have a PvPr who never losses a ship.

Hell, most non-EVE pvp games result in no loss except the loss of pride.
Salvos Rhoska
#577 - 2015-08-31 15:33:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Whitehound wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
"Losing stuff" is not a condition of PvP.

Then what is?

Player interacting against other players interests, competetively.

No, because that is just as much the definition of competitive PvE.


No.

For example:
We are both running the 100m race.

There is absolutely zero PvE effect in this scenario.

We are engaged in PvP, even if there is no overt interaction between us.
Nonetheless we are interacting, insofar as we are both running against the same clock, against each other, side by side.
Its you vs me.

Our interests are in conflict. I want to win. You want to win.
In competition, one of us wins, in a player vs player setting.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Whitehound
#578 - 2015-08-31 15:37:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Tippia wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Then, please, make me lose something. I do have market orders up.
Then you are already competing with other players, and you've most likely lost something in the last 5 minutes.

You mean the ISKs that I got in exchange? That is not a loss to me, by no means.

Fact is you do not even know what I am selling and where I am selling it. So you cannot do anything to cause me a loss. But let's keep talking about it, shall we? Maybe we will have a glitch and it makes all my stuff disappear or not give me any ISKs for it. Lol

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
#579 - 2015-08-31 15:39:10 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
"Losing stuff" is not a condition of PvP.

Then what is?


time to break it down barney style for the hound.

P is for player

v is for versus

P is for player

Roll
Salvos Rhoska
#580 - 2015-08-31 15:39:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
"Player(s) versus player(s), or PvP, is a type of multiplayer interactive conflict within a game between two or more live participants. This is in contrast to games where players compete against computer controlled opponents and/or players, which is correspondingly referred to as player versus environment (PvE). "

"PvP can be broadly used to describe any game, or aspect of a game, where players compete against each other"

-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_versus_player

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent