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Decline in numbers... starting to turn into RAPID!!!

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Salvos Rhoska
#381 - 2015-08-29 11:37:52 UTC
Txor wrote:
well this launcher problem is going to drive away even more players - still cant log in after 3 days and no one has a clue why

Try "repair" from the EVE root directory.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#382 - 2015-08-29 11:40:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Market McSelling Alt
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
This is probably what we are seeing now - the "alt bubble" is bursting as players are shedding their alts.

That should rationally have led to a decrease in PLEX price, as a factor of reduced demand for alts (which are far more numerous than primary accounts).

That hasn't happened.



As I said in the Plex Thread. Plex will skyrocket as more and more new players decide to quit before they sub, or people in general do not feel this game is worth the RL monies.

So you get a bunch of space rich vets using Plex to justify still having an active account they otherwise wouldn't pay for.

and

You get the newer player generation who say this game isn't worth paying RL monies to "win"

There used to be a healthy combo of people using RL monies to Plex for things, for newbs it was skills and ships and for older players it was market seed money and capitals. Both incentives to supply the Plex market seems to be gone.

Problem really becomes when Plex is non-supplied, those vets who are hanging on because it is "virtually free" to keep the active accounts will stop subbing. Then the numbers drop further, and the death spiral continues.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Txor
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#383 - 2015-08-29 11:42:21 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Txor wrote:
well this launcher problem is going to drive away even more players - still cant log in after 3 days and no one has a clue why

Try "repair" from the EVE root directory.

LOL tried that too many times to count because everyone says that fixes it - there are pages of people saying it hasnt fixed anything including me
Salvos Rhoska
#384 - 2015-08-29 11:44:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

As I said in the Plex Thread. Plex will skyrocket as more and more new players decide to quit before they sub, or people in general do not feel this game is worth the RL monies.

So you get a bunch of space rich vets using Plex to justify still having an active account they otherwise wouldn't pay for.


So your view pivots on the assumption that new players introduce a great deal of PLEX into the game, in conjunction with subbing.

That may be true, but I dont see any remarkable reason for why new player PLEX purchases (a large part which was they didn't understand subbing, and instead bought a PLEX right off from CCP which they then convert to gametime, and which therefore never even entered the market) should have dropped.

No recent changes effect noobs.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#385 - 2015-08-29 11:45:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
There is also option with reinstaling EVE, completely removing the old instalation. Also there is a guy in russian forum that has this patch on google drive and people downloaded it and it works.

Now the amount of players online stabilized. there is none RAPID drop occuring now.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#386 - 2015-08-29 11:46:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Market McSelling Alt
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

As I said in the Plex Thread. Plex will skyrocket as more and more new players decide to quit before they sub, or people in general do not feel this game is worth the RL monies.

So you get a bunch of space rich vets using Plex to justify still having an active account they otherwise wouldn't pay for.


So your view pivots on the assumption that new players introduce a great deal of PLEX into the game, in conjunction with subbing.

That may be true, but I dont see any remarkable reason for why new player PLEX purchases (a large part which was they didn't understand subbing, and instead bought a PLEX right off which they then convert to gametime, and which therefore never even entered the market) should have dropped.

No recent changes effect noobs.



It isn't my view. It is what we have been told at Fan Fest every year by the economics report. New players are consistent suppliers.

You don't see a reason why new player numbers are dropping? You never read any of the reports or presentations about what new players are doing or why they leave?

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Salvos Rhoska
#387 - 2015-08-29 11:47:56 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
It isn't my view. It is what we have been told at Fan Fest every year by the economics report. New players are consistent suppliers.


Has there been a dramatic drop in new players then this fall?

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#388 - 2015-08-29 11:50:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Market McSelling Alt
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
It isn't my view. It is what we have been told at Fan Fest every year by the economics report. New players are consistent suppliers.


Has there been a dramatic drop in new players then this fall?


Character creation never changes much. Player retention has been falling for years.

CCP released info on why players leave, it was lacking quite a bit of data, but basically well over half of all new accounts never sub, and another half only stay for a couple months.

Edit: Account creation used to be around the 3500 per month mark for a long time during the golden years. It is closer to 2400 now. But it is not translating into players or subs because of retention.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#389 - 2015-08-29 12:16:34 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
It isn't my view. It is what we have been told at Fan Fest every year by the economics report. New players are consistent suppliers.


Has there been a dramatic drop in new players then this fall?


Character creation never changes much. Player retention has been falling for years.

CCP released info on why players leave, it was lacking quite a bit of data, but basically well over half of all new accounts never sub, and another half only stay for a couple months.

Edit: Account creation used to be around the 3500 per month mark for a long time during the golden years. It is closer to 2400 now. But it is not translating into players or subs because of retention.


Take a look at what the game has to offer right now:

getting rolled by highsec wardeccers
getting hazed by CODE
getting rolled by pirates in low
getting used as cannon fodder by null entities
mining - anywhere ever
endlessly playing the clicker game of exploration
orbiting buttons
entosis trolling
the uphill slog of training for corp doctrine

You will (will) spout some platitude about BNI or equivalent and kitchen sinking it, and I will respond by saying that if that were the rule then we'd have hundreds of groups like that by now. But we don't. So don't try and tell me I'm wrong. I've seen players with 1.5mil sp asking about what carrier to train for to grind ISK better. A player with under a week of gametime burning out because of a lack of concrete progression.

Eve isn't even particularly hard as far as games and MMOs go, it is however the most user unfriendly out there and obtuse for providing a clear idea of what to do at each stage of your life. I could reel off a list of extremely hypothetical changes to the game that might alleviate some of the problem but it won't be anything new and it won't get done. I'm not being cynical without justification here: CCP won't make those changes because they're terrified of rocking the boat any harder than they have already the last 2 years. They've admitted to being extremely hesitant to touching highsec at all.

Things like cutting highsec by 50% and making all 0.5, 0.6 and 0.7 systems lowsec with scaling power for things like gate guns. Things like starting players out with arbitrary X amount of unassigned skillpoints to give them a real choice early on with what they want to do straight away and chase that dream. Making mining something that actively requires effort rather than just smoking your bong and hitting S when a neut appears. Making things like mass production in highsec impossible and nerfing JF to a level where entire alliances aren't going to shop in jita for everything.

You know actually making the game world scale within its own canon and having geography dictate to a degree the kind of people living there rather than what we have now which is nullsec botters using highsec gank alts for their daily dose of fun.
Whitehound
#390 - 2015-08-29 13:12:05 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
This is probably what we are seeing now - the "alt bubble" is bursting as players are shedding their alts.

That should rationally have led to a decrease in PLEX price, as a factor of reduced demand for alts (which are far more numerous than primary accounts).

That hasn't happened.

The price has unarguably increased and nor can you argue that this has made it easier for players to sustain multiple accounts. So you need to look at your argument again as it obviously cannot hold.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#391 - 2015-08-29 13:25:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Market McSelling Alt
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Lots of good points


So basically, what I and many others have tried to explain, even if so obtusely.

Every other MMO out there, every other RPG or adventure game, has some scalable content for younger players.

Very young SP players in Eve simply cannot do many of the things in this game. They can't build without skills, they can't even mine without skills. They can't use pvp weapons or ships and they cant do much with pve content.

So what we need is a system of scaling where a 2mil sp alt CAN rat, or mine, or pvp but at a newbish constrained level.

Unfortunately for this game most content is created by the players, and as average player SP has risen through the years, the barrier for entry into player driven activity requires more and more "dead" time to participate while waiting on basic skills to load.

I don't know what the solution is because I hate the idea of boosting starting SP, and I don't much like the idea of restricting pve content based on SPs or age... but that might be what it takes to keep this game alive.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#392 - 2015-08-29 13:49:05 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
It isn't my view. It is what we have been told at Fan Fest every year by the economics report. New players are consistent suppliers.


Has there been a dramatic drop in new players then this fall?


Character creation never changes much. Player retention has been falling for years.

CCP released info on why players leave, it was lacking quite a bit of data, but basically well over half of all new accounts never sub, and another half only stay for a couple months.

Edit: Account creation used to be around the 3500 per month mark for a long time during the golden years. It is closer to 2400 now. But it is not translating into players or subs because of retention.


Some data on retention:

50% never upgrade trial
40% upgrade trial but end up "leveling their Ravens" and quit before 2 years
10% upgrade their trial, do the right things and stay subbed for long

Some data on what subscribers (individuals) do ingame:

30% do a bit of everything.
25% play EVE like a tradiitonal MMO.
25% do PvE, industry and other non-PvP activities
12% just socialize and barely play the game ("Skilqueuers Online")
8% just PvP.

Based on that, it's evident that 80% of the people who actually upgraded their subscription engaged in acitvites that lead them away from the game, and they are far from being 80% of the customer base. Wheras the 10% who did the right things have become 30% of that player base.

CCP's response is to try to rescue the 80% from their mistakes and teach them to play the game right (= take the long path). They have enlisted players in that effort to teach the noobs to play right.

In my humble opinion, if 80% of CCP's customers choose a path that leads them out of the game, and provided that there is no reason for that, CCP as a company is failing to ensure its long term survival by paying sufficent attention to what customers are buying. Since 80% of them buy a ticket out, why not try and retain them by letting them do what they like/want/enjoy?

And all that before we even factor in how does the EVE dinosaur fare in the modern world of MMOs as MMOs face their own crisis since the social forces that led to their success are decaying.

MMOs thrived on online interaction, but now there's better, more affordable and universal means for online interaction. Meeting people online is something most firstworlders do every day, and they don't need a clumsy tool like a MMO to do that. Why should anyone join Jerks Online and play with strangers (some good, some real bad, most irrelevant) when they can just chat with their actual friends?

But now I've digressed really offtopic...

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#393 - 2015-08-29 13:57:37 UTC
Just throwing it out there...

What if CCP let devs, or hired staff to play the game and be FCs to newbs?

You could have CCP employees leading lower scaled incursions, pvp ops, mining ops, mission runnings, manufacturing tutorials.

My god, I would have been tickled pink a decade ago to have an actual CCP employee playing the game with me, as I came here knowing no one.

I still know no one but that is because the hundred or so people I called "friends" have all quit. But imagine the retention if you became "friends" with a real live CCP employee who showed you a good time in your first few months?

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Salvos Rhoska
#394 - 2015-08-29 14:04:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Whitehound wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
This is probably what we are seeing now - the "alt bubble" is bursting as players are shedding their alts.

That should rationally have led to a decrease in PLEX price, as a factor of reduced demand for alts (which are far more numerous than primary accounts).

That hasn't happened.

The price has unarguably increased and nor can you argue that this has made it easier for players to sustain multiple accounts. So you need to look at your argument again as it obviously cannot hold.


Wat.

Your argument was that reduction in alts has led to PLEX price increase.

I argued, reasonably, why that is not rational, as less alts should have resulted in reduced demand for PLEX, and hence a lower PLEX price. (Especially considering there are far more alts, than there are players)

There certainly is some rational reason for PLEX price increase, but its not the one you proposed, for reasons I stated.
Your rationale supports my conclusion, and contradicts your own.

Explain to me how a reduction in alts can have resuled in an increase in PLEX price?

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#395 - 2015-08-29 14:10:10 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Lots of good points


So basically, what I and many others have tried to explain, even if so obtusely.

Every other MMO out there, every other RPG or adventure game, has some scalable content for younger players.

Very young SP players in Eve simply cannot do many of the things in this game. They can't build without skills, they can't even mine without skills. They can't use pvp weapons or ships and they cant do much with pve content.

So what we need is a system of scaling where a 2mil sp alt CAN rat, or mine, or pvp but at a newbish constrained level.

Unfortunately for this game most content is created by the players, and as average player SP has risen through the years, the barrier for entry into player driven activity requires more and more "dead" time to participate while waiting on basic skills to load.

I don't know what the solution is because I hate the idea of boosting starting SP, and I don't much like the idea of restricting pve content based on SPs or age... but that might be what it takes to keep this game alive.


The game of EVE has two major problems:

highsec being too easy and accessible.
Nullsec not being interesting enough.

People shouldn't be returning to highsec for anything but the interim periods between corps or alliances, as there is simply not enough reward there for the effort required. Right now you can make 45-70 mil / hour running missions in highsec with a marauder, that's actually more money than you can make running anoms in that same marauder.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#396 - 2015-08-29 14:12:59 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
In my humble opinion, if 80% of CCP's customers choose a path that leads them out of the game, and provided that there is no reason for that, CCP as a company is failing to ensure its long term survival by paying sufficent attention to what customers are buying. Since 80% of them buy a ticket out, why not try and retain them by letting them do what they like/want/enjoy?
I've been coming to this burger shop every day for 12 years for lunch. Every day, I go to the counter and order a taco, but the cashier tells me they only serve burgers. I say, "fine give me a burger" and while they make it, I complain loudly how people really love tacos. The man finishes making my burger, gives it to me, and says "But we sell burgers here mate, like we have for the last 12 years and there are 4 taco restaurants on this block for you to go eat at." I pay the man my money, tell him he doesn't know how to run a restaurant and that he should serve tacos like everyone else or he will go out of business any day now, and sit down to eat my burger like I do every day.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#397 - 2015-08-29 14:22:02 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Lots of good points


So basically, what I and many others have tried to explain, even if so obtusely.

Every other MMO out there, every other RPG or adventure game, has some scalable content for younger players.

Very young SP players in Eve simply cannot do many of the things in this game. They can't build without skills, they can't even mine without skills. They can't use pvp weapons or ships and they cant do much with pve content.

So what we need is a system of scaling where a 2mil sp alt CAN rat, or mine, or pvp but at a newbish constrained level.

Unfortunately for this game most content is created by the players, and as average player SP has risen through the years, the barrier for entry into player driven activity requires more and more "dead" time to participate while waiting on basic skills to load.

I don't know what the solution is because I hate the idea of boosting starting SP, and I don't much like the idea of restricting pve content based on SPs or age... but that might be what it takes to keep this game alive.


The game of EVE has two major problems:

highsec being too easy and accessible.
Nullsec not being interesting enough.

People shouldn't be returning to highsec for anything but the interim periods between corps or alliances, as there is simply not enough reward there for the effort required. Right now you can make 45-70 mil / hour running missions in highsec with a marauder, that's actually more money than you can make running anoms in that same marauder.



There is no stopping the return to HighSec as long as 0.0 alliances have mandatory ops and people who don't want to participate can't have their alts making isk in Null when they are supposed to be pewing.

I know from back in the day when we were figting BOB I would have a highsec alt that no one knew about just because I would get burned out on the RR BS fleets pos grinding, so it wasn't that I couldn't make more or that I didn't want to be in Null, it was that if I was in Null I was expected to participate in fleet, not make isk.

Alts in HighSec give anonymity to the isk making process. You can't stop that no matter what you do.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#398 - 2015-08-29 14:24:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Market McSelling Alt
Black Pedro wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
In my humble opinion, if 80% of CCP's customers choose a path that leads them out of the game, and provided that there is no reason for that, CCP as a company is failing to ensure its long term survival by paying sufficent attention to what customers are buying. Since 80% of them buy a ticket out, why not try and retain them by letting them do what they like/want/enjoy?
I've been coming to this burger shop every day for 12 years for lunch. Every day, I go to the counter and order a taco, but the cashier tells me they only serve burgers. I say, "fine give me a burger" and while they make it, I complain loudly how people really love tacos. The man finishes making my burger, gives it to me, and says "But we sell burgers here mate, like we have for the last 12 years and there are 4 taco restaurants on this block for you to go eat at." I pay the man my money, tell him he doesn't know how to run a restaurant and that he should serve tacos like everyone else or he will go out of business any day now, and sit down to eat my burger like I do every day.



That is because you are either too afraid to try the taco places, or too lazy.

In real life if you really wanted a taco, you would get a taco.

Furthermore, if 80% of that Burger places customers asked for Tacos... the business owner would close shop if he ignored them for 12 years because eventually no one would come back as ask for Tacos or anything.

I understand the point you are trying to make... but a better example would be trying to open a Starbucks in a completely Mormon town in rural Utah...

You have to know your base, and you have to play to their desires, or settle for selling to the fringe.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Whitehound
#399 - 2015-08-29 14:39:53 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
This is probably what we are seeing now - the "alt bubble" is bursting as players are shedding their alts.

That should rationally have led to a decrease in PLEX price, as a factor of reduced demand for alts (which are far more numerous than primary accounts).

That hasn't happened.

The price has unarguably increased and nor can you argue that this has made it easier for players to sustain multiple accounts. So you need to look at your argument again as it obviously cannot hold.

Wat.

Your argument was that reduction in alts has led to PLEX price increase. ...

No.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
QuantumBen
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#400 - 2015-08-29 14:41:46 UTC
Game has become too focused on changes and endless updates. The changes and endless updates detract from what has made the game great in the early years: conflicts between groups of people.

Now instead of slow changes and conflicts between groups of people, we have fast changes and people waiting to see what the next patch brings.

rather poor strategy ccp.