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Decline in numbers... starting to turn into RAPID!!!

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d0cTeR9
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#161 - 2015-08-26 00:48:15 UTC
20k to 30k when ever I log.

Been around since the beginning.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#162 - 2015-08-26 00:58:15 UTC
helana Tsero wrote:


Didnt say easier.. I said better.

Dumbing down and spoon feeding is not better. Making the NPE more contemporary and fitting in with what 2015 gamers expect is how I would define better. Basicly I think spreadsheets in space is one of the key problems with NPE. Also first few months of eve is freakin boring til you get into the meta game or somehow stumble upon a decent player corp

Boring is a point of view in spreadsheets online. Low SP characters are quite fun, say compared to doing lvl4 missions in a BS. May as well prepare them for what's about to come Lol especially if they got into EVE expecting to f2p PLEX their accounts asap by farming til their mouse hands go numb.

All the tutorial needs to do is get the player to click in space to propel them forward, fire their guns once and show them how to dock at the career agent station, better. Anything more than that is overkill, confusing and pointless.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#163 - 2015-08-26 01:00:20 UTC
helana Tsero wrote:
You guys who are arguing back and forth on ISK... incursions vs blue loot vs null ratting / risk vs reward / high vs low vs null vs wh are missing the point.

Bottom line.

People play the game cause its fun... whatever people are finding fun.. CCP needs to do more of.

What ever people are finding less fun... CCP needs to improve that aspect of the game or cut it.

and they need to find a way to make the NPE experience better and more contemporary... cause the new player in 2007-2009 is very different to the new player in 2015.



It's related, and not just tangentially so.

The game is most fun when it is not a chore. The game is not a chore when you can find income and content around where you live - this sort of makes a self feeding loop of content generation, and suddenly chores can become very interesting. Conversely, when local income is so bad or so sub-optimal, you spend more of your time away from places that could be interesting if there was a stable population and something to fight over, and more of your time acquiring the risk free isk of HS.

Syndicate is one of the most violent regions in the game; it has a great location in terms of accessibility and adjacent regions, and harbours lots of people who like to shoot at each other. However, Syndicate is also one of the poorest regions in the game - the LP store is a joke compared to any other pirate LP store (including HS SoE), DED sites don't pay well any more, etc etc...there's no way to support yourself out there. You have to chose between roaming/being in syndicate generating content, or making money where it is plentiful and accessible. For the amount of ISK, minerals and other resources Syndicate makes, it punches extremely above its weight in terms of lossmails and content it generates.

Which is the whole thing of why it is damn important to deal with HS income - both HS income being too good, and NPC Null/Low income not being high enough, creates content vacuums. So long as people are on their alts or mains, earning income places they don't live, content dries up and the game is more of a chore than it needs to be. Put the money where the danger is and the game would be more fun - you can get in trouble AND make some ISK at the same time rather than neatly partitioning it into chore and non-chore. When you compare EvE to another game, the ratio of chore to fun comes to mind, and there would be much less of said chore factor if risk/reward was given a hard look at.

The other half of the problem right now is the ship meta. There are no fun fights left, or very few, since everything is so fast and kitey. Getting a good fight when all the best comps now can easily disengage or chose not to fight makes the game even more of a chore, on top of having to buy the ships in the first place.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#164 - 2015-08-26 01:09:20 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
helana Tsero wrote:
You guys who are arguing back and forth on ISK... incursions vs blue loot vs null ratting / risk vs reward / high vs low vs null vs wh are missing the point.

Bottom line.

People play the game cause its fun... whatever people are finding fun.. CCP needs to do more of.

What ever people are finding less fun... CCP needs to improve that aspect of the game or cut it.

and they need to find a way to make the NPE experience better and more contemporary... cause the new player in 2007-2009 is very different to the new player in 2015.



It's related, and not just tangentially so.

The game is most fun when it is not a chore. The game is not a chore when you can find income and content around where you live - this sort of makes a self feeding loop of content generation, and suddenly chores can become very interesting. Conversely, when local income is so bad or so sub-optimal, you spend more of your time away from places that could be interesting if there was a stable population and something to fight over, and more of your time acquiring the risk free isk of HS.

Syndicate is one of the most violent regions in the game; it has a great location in terms of accessibility and adjacent regions, and harbours lots of people who like to shoot at each other. However, Syndicate is also one of the poorest regions in the game - the LP store is a joke compared to any other pirate LP store (including HS SoE), DED sites don't pay well any more, etc etc...there's no way to support yourself out there. You have to chose between roaming/being in syndicate generating content, or making money where it is plentiful and accessible. For the amount of ISK, minerals and other resources Syndicate makes, it punches extremely above its weight in terms of lossmails and content it generates.

Which is the whole thing of why it is damn important to deal with HS income - both HS income being too good, and NPC Null/Low income not being high enough, creates content vacuums. So long as people are on their alts or mains, earning income places they don't live, content dries up and the game is more of a chore than it needs to be. Put the money where the danger is and the game would be more fun - you can get in trouble AND make some ISK at the same time rather than neatly partitioning it into chore and non-chore. When you compare EvE to another game, the ratio of chore to fun comes to mind, and there would be much less of said chore factor if risk/reward was given a hard look at.

The other half of the problem right now is the ship meta. There are no fun fights left, or very few, since everything is so fast and kitey. Getting a good fight when all the best comps now can easily disengage or chose not to fight makes the game even more of a chore, on top of having to buy the ships in the first place.


Content isn't created by doing PVE in the area in which you live. Doesn't matter if you are doing lvl 5's in low sec, Incursions in High Sec or Anoms in Null. People dock up (or POS up) when danger arrives. In Null it is far easier to spot danger (the guy without the blue plus sign). In High Sec it is easier harder to spot the danger (because neutrals aren't a constant threat) but there is less of it.

You think that forcing people to rat in their own space creates content... it doesn't. Content is created when Player A wants to take something away from Player B, or both A and B fight to get to C first. You are confused as to how this game works if you think forcing a couple thousand station dwellers to move into other spaces creates content.

Also, no good fights because everything is Kitey? What is this 2008? You must be new here.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#165 - 2015-08-26 01:19:40 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
helana Tsero wrote:
You guys who are arguing back and forth on ISK... incursions vs blue loot vs null ratting / risk vs reward / high vs low vs null vs wh are missing the point.

Bottom line.

People play the game cause its fun... whatever people are finding fun.. CCP needs to do more of.

What ever people are finding less fun... CCP needs to improve that aspect of the game or cut it.

and they need to find a way to make the NPE experience better and more contemporary... cause the new player in 2007-2009 is very different to the new player in 2015.



It's related, and not just tangentially so.

The game is most fun when it is not a chore. The game is not a chore when you can find income and content around where you live - this sort of makes a self feeding loop of content generation, and suddenly chores can become very interesting. Conversely, when local income is so bad or so sub-optimal, you spend more of your time away from places that could be interesting if there was a stable population and something to fight over, and more of your time acquiring the risk free isk of HS.

Syndicate is one of the most violent regions in the game; it has a great location in terms of accessibility and adjacent regions, and harbours lots of people who like to shoot at each other. However, Syndicate is also one of the poorest regions in the game - the LP store is a joke compared to any other pirate LP store (including HS SoE), DED sites don't pay well any more, etc etc...there's no way to support yourself out there. You have to chose between roaming/being in syndicate generating content, or making money where it is plentiful and accessible. For the amount of ISK, minerals and other resources Syndicate makes, it punches extremely above its weight in terms of lossmails and content it generates.

Which is the whole thing of why it is damn important to deal with HS income - both HS income being too good, and NPC Null/Low income not being high enough, creates content vacuums. So long as people are on their alts or mains, earning income places they don't live, content dries up and the game is more of a chore than it needs to be. Put the money where the danger is and the game would be more fun - you can get in trouble AND make some ISK at the same time rather than neatly partitioning it into chore and non-chore. When you compare EvE to another game, the ratio of chore to fun comes to mind, and there would be much less of said chore factor if risk/reward was given a hard look at.

The other half of the problem right now is the ship meta. There are no fun fights left, or very few, since everything is so fast and kitey. Getting a good fight when all the best comps now can easily disengage or chose not to fight makes the game even more of a chore, on top of having to buy the ships in the first place.


You make a good case. I live in wormhole space and the amount of high class wormholes that are occupied by null sec alts for the purposes of isk farming is huge.

Also agree on the fast and kity meta. Trying to get my corp mates out of their kite boats and brawl when they dont have overwelming numbers is a chore.


"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
#166 - 2015-08-26 01:39:04 UTC
Mir Jana wrote:
I was wondering about something...

January 2014 - average was 41k online
June 2014 - average was 32k online
December 2014 - average was 27k online
May 2015 - average was 21k online
August 2015 - average is 16k online

today I logged in at 14793 online.....

PLEX price ... 1 billion and its still rising
+
Changes to the game by CCP in the last months that make alts less useful
=
People are unsubbing their alts en masse.
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#167 - 2015-08-26 02:08:21 UTC
well whatever the average player count is it will be declining 2 more accounts, highsec mining returns have fallen below my personal,'justicication to keep playing', limit and one acct. goes down in 15 days the other in about a month, then they fade into history.

I can haz their stuff !

at least there is that.....

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Cancel Align NOW
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#168 - 2015-08-26 02:21:30 UTC
Algarion Getz wrote:
Mir Jana wrote:
I was wondering about something...

January 2014 - average was 41k online
June 2014 - average was 32k online
December 2014 - average was 27k online
May 2015 - average was 21k online
August 2015 - average is 16k online

today I logged in at 14793 online.....

PLEX price ... 1 billion and its still rising
+
Changes to the game by CCP in the last months that make alts less useful
=
People are unsubbing their alts en masse.


I for one am finally looking at purchasing some plex from CCP to sell in game. I am holding out till they hit 1.2bil.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#169 - 2015-08-26 02:38:34 UTC
Don't wait too long, there might be another accidental Amazon 90% off sale.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#170 - 2015-08-26 02:45:26 UTC
helana Tsero wrote:


You make a good case. I live in wormhole space and the amount of high class wormholes that are occupied by null sec alts for the purposes of isk farming is huge.


Sry about that! But there is just nothing like what you wormhole guys have in null sec, were running anomalies created in 2004/5 as our main source of "in region" income. Wormhole space, lowsec and FW and high sec are just better options once you get to a certain point , a "glass ceiling" for high end PVE pilots. I've run as many as 4 alts (a mach or rattlesnake +3 with either smart bombs, assigned drones or FoF missiles) and have never been able to break 240-260 mil per hour total. OR I can make that much with ONE BOMBER in FW, or a sizeable fraction of that with ONE MACH in high sec, or join up with a wormhole corp we are blue with and mae REAL isk.

Apparently CCP doesn't want people like me flying pve ships in null sec (but scrubs running afktars are welcome). The only reason I rat now a days is boredom.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#171 - 2015-08-26 02:46:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Syndicate is one of the most violent regions in the game; it has a great location in terms of accessibility and adjacent regions, and harbours lots of people who like to shoot at each other. However, Syndicate is also one of the poorest regions in the game - the LP store is a joke compared to any other pirate LP store (including HS SoE), DED sites don't pay well any more, etc etc...there's no way to support yourself out there. You have to chose between roaming/being in syndicate generating content, or making money where it is plentiful and accessible. For the amount of ISK, minerals and other resources Syndicate makes, it punches extremely above its weight in terms of lossmails and content it generates.


OK, so Syndicate shows that neither truesec nor occupancy is necessary to generate robust and lively PVP.

Vic Jefferson wrote:
Which is the whole thing of why it is damn important to deal with HS income - both HS income being too good, and NPC Null/Low income not being high enough, creates content vacuums.


Where? Not Syndicate. Or how about Providence? Awful truesec, directly adjacent to high sec, only 12 jumps from the second largest hub in the game, and is it a content vacuum? No. Providence was doing occupancy sov years before the game offered any incentives to do so, and its residents are famously willing to undock. In anything. Write it off as ~roleplaying~ if you want to, but they've been able to sustain it for a decade. There's something real there.

I have a sneaking suspicion that if you sat down with a map and blocked out what you consider content vacuums, you would find a different relation to true sec--and high sec--than you imply here. Furthermore, after the buffs to null sec income, combined with the new importance of sov indexes, high sec ratting went into a nose dive. Incursions took a hit, too. So there's a case to be made that the Aegis income buff was entirely adequate to convince a great many people to idle their high sec ratting and incursion alts and move back to null--and also a hard example of what high sec income is for players who aren't driven achiever types.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Jenshae Chiroptera
#172 - 2015-08-26 04:45:53 UTC
"It is just the summer" - based on the monthly data Chribba supplied.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#173 - 2015-08-26 04:57:39 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
"It is just the summer" - based on the monthly data Chribba supplied.

Well, on the bright side, the numbers seem to be stabilizing, with less drastic swings.
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#174 - 2015-08-26 05:36:14 UTC  |  Edited by: helana Tsero
Jenn aSide wrote:
helana Tsero wrote:


You make a good case. I live in wormhole space and the amount of high class wormholes that are occupied by null sec alts for the purposes of isk farming is huge.


I've run as many as 4 alts (a mach or rattlesnake +3 with either smart bombs, assigned drones or FoF missiles) and have never been able to break 240-260 mil per hour total. OR I can make that much with ONE BOMBER in FW, or a sizeable fraction of that with ONE MACH in high sec, or join up with a wormhole corp we are blue with and mae REAL isk.



A side note but you do realise that 240-260mil an hour is dam good isk....dont you ?? Not many wormholers do much better than that per person after you take into account the time spent scouting / rolling holes etc and you do have the benefit of local where as wormholers are constantly mashing dscan etc etc.

How much per hour are you wanting to make ?

"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#175 - 2015-08-26 06:03:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Algarion Getz wrote:
Mir Jana wrote:
I was wondering about something...

January 2014 - average was 41k online
June 2014 - average was 32k online
December 2014 - average was 27k online
May 2015 - average was 21k online
August 2015 - average is 16k online

today I logged in at 14793 online.....

PLEX price ... 1 billion and its still rising
+
Changes to the game by CCP in the last months that make alts less useful
=
People are unsubbing their alts en masse.

The timing is a bit off, but sure — it's a combination of things. In the last month, though, the numbers have actually stabilised, with a (very) weak upwards trend. They did the same thing last year too.


On a different note, I love the earnings numbers people keep throwing around, especially in relation to the old Kerfira threads where the counter argument was that anything above 45M/h was ridiculously and unrealistically high… P
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#176 - 2015-08-26 06:12:06 UTC
Algarion Getz wrote:

PLEX price ... 1 billion and its still rising
+
Changes to the game by CCP in the last months that make alts less useful
=
People are unsubbing their alts en masse.

There use to be a day when people complained about others having so many alts, alts online etc. Now they complain not enough PCU as people pull their alts. Kind of ironic. Just some people will always have something negative to say no matter what.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#177 - 2015-08-26 06:14:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Hasikan Miallok
Vic Jefferson wrote:


The other half of the problem right now is the ship meta. There are no fun fights left, or very few, since everything is so fast and kitey. Getting a good fight when all the best comps now can easily disengage or chose not to fight makes the game even more of a chore, on top of having to buy the ships in the first place.


The meta issue with EVE has always been the cycle of balance everything so its a boring clone of everything else with different flashy lights then bring out new stuff that's OP, wait till everyone starts using it then balance everything so its a boring clone of everything else with different flashy lights again. Rinse and repeat.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#178 - 2015-08-26 06:17:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniela Doran
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
AtramLolipop wrote:

  • Muliboxing - This also hurt people, from a PVP'er point of view, PVP itself has become dull, predictable and regimented. Preparing a fleet has itself become just as grinding as mining. Without logi no-one goes anywhere, so the little 3 man fleets usually piloted by the same person fixed many peoples need for chest beating PVP.

    • This struck me as particularly interesting.

    Imo, from personal experience and preference, EVE is in many ways best played with atleast 2 accounts simultaneously.
    This has less to do with the pragmatic matching of two pilots and their ships and all the ways they can support united action together for greater results (which are almost unlimited throughout many activities in EVE) but also to do with EVE being inherently quite a bit of a grind/waiting game, as well as such a huge universe. Also, that you can completely trust your alt, whereas you can never fully trust another capsuleer.

    Its not for everyone, but really 2 accounts offer such a huge opportunity for what you can do in EVE with your own recognisance.
    It doubles your potential and complicates it immesurably with opportunities for synergy. The jump from 2 to 3 accounts however, starts to become cumbersome and is inherently less advantage than 1 to 2. 1-2 is x2. 2-3 is only 1.5x.

    Having said that, things got out of hand with multibox fleets exploiting various game systems.
    HS multibox mining (ice especially) in particular, became a laughing matter where the equation above actually started paying out far higher dividends the more accounts you ran, as mining is inherently so passive (compared to other activities) and HS safety. Attention or action was no threshold or limitation. Point and click, check back every so few minutes.

    But I think there needs to be a threshold in EVE, between what you can do alone with all your accounts, and the incentive to join together with others for greater success/profit/opportunity.

    Perhaps EVE population is now rationalizing back into that.
    Higher PLEX cost- less multi-accounts= more incentive to interplay with others.
    In that sense, it makes sense that activity figures are at 2007 figures, and perhaps is a good thing for community and commitment.
    Also establishes a precedent for a period when active account figures were indeed as low as now, but led to growth (albeit, without a 1bil PLEX price over their head, but inflation and various isk fountains didnt exist back then either as they do today).

    Rising PLEX prices can also be considered a positive element, leading to, yes, less active population, but also perhaps more interaction between them. More "real" players with a real commitment to their accounts.


    To maximized your opportunities in eve, I believe a person needs at least 4 accounts with 2 being the bare minimum. But with the ever increasing Plex prices, that is getting increasingly difficult. If the Plex prices soar to 1.5+ bill, then I'll be at risk of reducing my multiple accounts....a lot.
    Vic Jefferson
    Stimulus
    Rote Kapelle
    #179 - 2015-08-26 06:58:06 UTC
    Market McSelling Alt wrote:
    Content isn't created by doing PVE in the area in which you live. Doesn't matter if you are doing lvl 5's in low sec, Incursions in High Sec or Anoms in Null. People dock up (or POS up) when danger arrives.


    Sure it is. Population bubbles are a great way to find fights or content creation seeds when out and roaming. Some people dock up no matter what, and there's nothing you can really do about it, but there's a good strong correlation between population density and content. The more density you put outside of highsec, the more content creation opportunities there are.


    Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
    Swaatybaatch Yesplease
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #180 - 2015-08-26 07:01:32 UTC
    - 1 member from me

    reason :

    poped back to eve all exited to play again since 2 real life friends wanted to try , so got myself active again about 1 - 2 weeks ago to check things out sold a toon and bought this one back since it was the one I started playing eve with , problem was the way I was greated back into the game , helped a random other player got myself blown up he shares kill right with everyone else and now after a few plex selling I am broke again that along with the awesome harassment to boot , this is just sad makes me remember why I stopped playing in the first place ( worked my but off for about 10 bil and lost it all to scammers )

    my eve experience , would not recommend to my friends who are lucky since they have not subbed yet , the game is fun the players though they seem to want to keep there game to themselves then I say by all means keep your game to yourself , all my toon are marked for deletion and unsubbed if anyone wants this one you can take it for 1 isk or what ever the min amount of isk is these days .