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[Galatea] First batch of sov capture iterations

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Warmeister
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#1041 - 2015-08-24 07:27:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Warmeister
Lucas Kell wrote:
Because d-scan doesn't exist Roll


in case you haven't been playing eve for the past year or two, there are now ships that don't show up on d-scan, as well as ships that can warp at 8.0au/sec base speed. so absence of local will be a massive game changer

Quote:

Harassment yes, boredom no. One of the problems Fozzie stated the old mechanic had is that people could use it as a weapon to create boredom for their opponents. Letting the new mechanic work so easily for the same goal is bad.


in my opinion, the only time fozziesov becomes boring is when one of the sides doesn't show up. when both sides show up it can be anything but boring
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1042 - 2015-08-24 07:30:46 UTC
Kystraz wrote:
Quote:
Goal #1: As much as possible, ensure that the process of fighting over a star system is enjoyable and fascinating for all the players involved

CFC's announcement to the providence invasion is certainly the best way to make the system enjoyable and fascinating for all players. /s

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
ISD FlowingSpice
ISD SYAD
ISD Alliance
#1043 - 2015-08-24 07:47:37 UTC
Cleaned up some posts.

Play nice.

Vice Admiral

SYAD - Systems Administration

Interstellar Services Department
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1044 - 2015-08-24 08:06:04 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Kystraz wrote:
Quote:
Goal #1: As much as possible, ensure that the process of fighting over a star system is enjoyable and fascinating for all the players involved

CFC's announcement to the providence invasion is certainly the best way to make the system enjoyable and fascinating for all players. /s


Not with what we are planning to do.
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1045 - 2015-08-24 08:15:13 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
The fact that if your indexes are high enough you can ignore another player for 45 minutes, then finally go respond to them, and then either kill them or chase them away, is still not good game play. Eve is supposed to be a fun and exciting game. CCP should be trying to find ways to make content denial the least viable strategy.

Fundamentally, at either extreme of the indexes, Aegis Sov still rewards conflict evasion tactics - and that is why it is not a good system.

Many years ago, CCP changed the aggression mechanics so that logging off your tackled Supercapital was no longer the best strategy. This was a great change. Logging off the game - not playing the game - making other players waste time - should never be the best strategy.


There is no conflict evasion. There is no content denial. As said to you 10 times before, trollceptor is only capable of taking uncontested sov. If he comes for occupied system, unless it's occupied with gewn bots/dockupbears, he's failing by design - fozziesov working as intended.

Many years ago CCP did the unrelated thing which somehow involving logoff, which is completely unrelated to fozziesov, but gotta derail, because gewn. Once again, if defending your systems is wasting time, don't waste time, it's your own decision to waste time, don't cry about it.

FT Diomedes wrote:
To me, that is part of the problem. I would rather see a system in which the defender always has to be ready to fight for his space - at least during his designated prime time - but the attacker has to make a concerted effort to go for it.

That way, if the attacker makes an effort to attack, and the defender fails to show up once, he should lose that space. The attacker will always get the initiative - he chooses the date and place for the fight. The defender gets to choose the vulnerability window - but can never decide "Let's blue ball them today and ping for more numbers two days from now."

Not showing up to the fight should never be a viable strategy for a sov holding alliance. At the same time, making an attempt on sovereignty should require enough effort on the part of the attacker that it is not undertaken lightly.


Which is, what a coincidence, exactly how it works where people aren't emotionally attached to deprecated thought patterns and actually adapted.

tg;tr (too gewn to read) trollceptor is only a thing where you are completely unable to contest your own sov, in which case it's uncontested sov capture and working as intended.
Kystraz
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1046 - 2015-08-24 08:31:47 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:
tg;tr (too gewn to read) trollceptor is only a thing where you are completely unable to contest your own sov, in which case it's uncontested sov capture and working as intended.


https://timerboard.net/

Nope, nothing there for Imperium space.

Quote:
Goal #1: As much as possible, ensure that the process of fighting over a star system is enjoyable and fascinating for all the players involved


Nope, solo interceptor v. solo griffin isn't enjoyable or fascinating for all players involved.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1047 - 2015-08-24 09:22:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Warmeister wrote:
in case you haven't been playing eve for the past year or two, there are now ships that don't show up on d-scan, as well as ships that can warp at 8.0au/sec base speed. so absence of local will be a massive game changer
Indeed there are and I'm sure it would, but it won't render trollcetors useless. They'll still be the cheap and easy way to fly straight though any border controls and force a respond in any given system.

Warmeister wrote:
in my opinion, the only time fozziesov becomes boring is when one of the sides doesn't show up. when both sides show up it can be anything but boring
Then you haven't really used it much. When you have to constantly fly to a node to chase away a frigate, both sides have showed up and it's still boring. Like with FW, it's non-content and it's bad.

Kystraz, it's not worth even attempting to engage that dude in conversation, it won't every turn constructive. The guy can't even spell goon. Roll

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#1048 - 2015-08-24 09:54:38 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:

As said to you 10 times before, trollceptor is only capable of taking uncontested sov.


Repeating this "fact" does not make it true. Goons managed to weaponise boredom under dominion sov what makes you think the new mechanics are any different? I fully believe they will stick to their plan of trolling sov with fight-evading ships for months until people are too bored to show up to defend. Is that really good gameplay? Unfortunately boredom is one of the best tactics in eve, people enjoy fights even if they lose some. Nobody enjoys blueballing tactics and that's why they work, the defenders morale will slowly be worn down until they can no longer field enough numbers.

P.S. I'm not a goon

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1049 - 2015-08-24 10:13:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Disallowing ceptors from entosising does not change that. What it will do is shift the problem. From evading to not being able to attack in the first place. This is not better in any way, shape or form, and will just reinstate the Dominion sov unattackability of sov because it requires unreasonable effort against powerful entities, while small entities are just as or even more vulnerable to attacks than before. Great, we go back to what was before.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1050 - 2015-08-24 10:24:48 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Mr Mieyli wrote:
I fully believe they will stick to their plan of trolling sov with fight-evading ships for months until people are too bored to show up to defend.


See, here's the thing. A similar thing was said with siphons...nothing happened.

Furthermore, I am slightly curious - if the entry barrier and effort levels are so long...why hasn't it started yet?

Why are people talking it up as opposed to making provi burn?

I genuinely don't understand and honestly...I'm impatient to see how it pans out. It's strange, really, set against the backdrop of many complaints that taking sov is too easy, any idiot can do it, low barrier of entry, easy to take....yet no-one is actually doing it.

/shrugs



Edit: Oh I see one system went.

/popcorn
Warmeister
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#1051 - 2015-08-24 10:25:35 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Indeed there are and I'm sure it would, but it won't render trollcetors useless. They'll still be the cheap and easy way to fly straight though any border controls and force a respond in any given system.


they are intended to do that. i'm not a big fan of bubble immunity myself, and i think it should be stripped from all ships in game including T3. but that's got nothing to do with sov mechanics. and inties still will be able to get through border controls even if they aren't nullified

Lucas Kell wrote:

Then you haven't really used it much. When you have to constantly fly to a node to chase away a frigate, both sides have showed up and it's still boring. Like with FW, it's non-content and it's bad.

i've used it enough. i think FW guys will disagree with your comment that the way they are playing it is boring.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1052 - 2015-08-24 10:40:22 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Disallowing ceptors from entosising does not change that. What it will do is shift the problem. From evading to not being able to attack in the first place. This is not better in any way, shape or form.
So are you claiming that if it took one battlecuriser or above to attack a solar system you would be incapable of attacking sov? If that's the case you'd stand no chance of defending sov anyway.

Warmeister wrote:
they are intended to do that. i'm not a big fan of bubble immunity myself, and i think it should be stripped from all ships in game including T3. but that's got nothing to do with sov mechanics. and inties still will be able to get through border controls even if they aren't nullified
No, they aren't. Interceptors, as their name suggests, are designed to intercept. They are designed to be scouts and designed to tackle. They aren't designed to be a near unstoppable method of blasting through defenses to take potshots at sov structures.

Rivr Luzade wrote:
i've used it enough. i think FW guys will disagree with your comment that the way they are playing it is boring.
lol, the only reason FW guys will disagree with that is because they are making fat bank off of the LP stores from playing the system. FW is widely known to be a horrendously broken system.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#1053 - 2015-08-24 10:49:26 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Mr Mieyli wrote:
I fully believe they will stick to their plan of trolling sov with fight-evading ships for months until people are too bored to show up to defend.


See, here's the thing. A similar thing was said with siphons...nothing happened.

Furthermore, I am slightly curious - if the entry barrier and effort levels are so long...why hasn't it started yet?

Why are people talking it up as opposed to making provi burn?

I genuinely don't understand and honestly...I'm impatient to see how it pans out. It's strange, really, set against the backdrop of many complaints that taking sov is too easy, any idiot can do it, low barrier of entry, easy to take....yet no-one is actually doing it.

/shrugs



Leaving your sov space for a deployment makes you very vulnerable especially in the new system (and since phoebe) where it takes very little to reinforce a structure. Give it some time/ nerfs until people feel comfortable leaving their own space and then we'll see large scale deployments.

If it's now much easier for small groups to take sov why would it not be correspondingly easier for a large well-organised group? A large group can leave half their guys at home for home defence and take the other half out in entosis ships and bore a region to death before capturing it. If it is mechanically possible and also strategically viable then people will do it (in this case avoid fights in interceptors until people are too bored to defend)

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1054 - 2015-08-24 10:59:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Lucas Kell wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
i've used it enough. i think FW guys will disagree with your comment that the way they are playing it is boring.
lol, the only reason FW guys will disagree with that is because they are making fat bank off of the LP stores from playing the system. FW is widely known to be a horrendously broken system.

While I'm glad fweddit wanted to join us in null for the fun, I'm afraid now that sov has become... well less so

This is the moment we need their staging-camping and button-orbiting prowess :) I guess they also know a lot about interceptors

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1055 - 2015-08-24 11:01:54 UTC
Remember this was meant to be the flight of the trollceptors...it's not hard to rock about in them. A full scale deployment naturally takes longer, but then it is a sovwar and not the flight of the ceptors soooooo....

As to why it will be harder they're taking it from entrenched, high indexed holders. Not sprawling "a guy every 3 systems" overstretched, used to afk/passive defence sovholders. Sov got easy to take from slack holders, not easier to take from all.

I've already stated I think it will be a hell of a lot harder than people expect. I could be wrong and have also said as much. It will however, be interesting whether I was correct or not.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1056 - 2015-08-24 11:39:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Lucas Kell wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Disallowing ceptors from entosising does not change that. What it will do is shift the problem. From evading to not being able to attack in the first place. This is not better in any way, shape or form.
So are you claiming that if it took one battlecuriser or above to attack a solar system you would be incapable of attacking sov? If that's the case you'd stand no chance of defending sov anyway.

Finally you start to understand. I've already had given up hope. Now just use your brain to fill the blanks who the people are who would cause this and we are one step closer to a solution.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1057 - 2015-08-24 11:44:43 UTC
I would imagine that after the Providence war, no-one in nullsec is going to bother with I-hubs anymore. This will make all sov everywhere essentally worthless.

Maybe that was the idea.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1058 - 2015-08-24 12:03:15 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Disallowing ceptors from entosising does not change that. What it will do is shift the problem. From evading to not being able to attack in the first place. This is not better in any way, shape or form.
So are you claiming that if it took one battlecuriser or above to attack a solar system you would be incapable of attacking sov? If that's the case you'd stand no chance of defending sov anyway.

Finally you start to understand. I've already had given up hope. Now just use your brain to fill the blanks who the people are who would cause this and we are one step closer to a solution.


The only solution here is you growing a backbone and actually fighting the sov owners for their sov.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1059 - 2015-08-24 12:06:52 UTC
baltec, please listen to Mitten's recording and then think about what you just said. Then return and edit your post with your conclusion.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Natya Mebelle
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1060 - 2015-08-24 12:24:42 UTC
The only thing that always rubbed me the wrong way with the new sovereignty is the Tech2 Entosis link.
250km range? Seriously? I thought it was supposed to be short-ranged and right in between the fight. The Entosis II is just too good overall. it's like "T2 entosis is mandatory to do anything seriously" instead of just an upgrade to the T1 Entosis. Upping the skill requirement for the T2 Entosis, fixing some of the variables, and I think this is going to help with some of the "troll-ships" as well.

250km. Really.

I'm also not happy that everything is just simulation passive again. You activate a module. Wow. Done. Much participation. I'd much rather see more activity going on. The Entosis module is "taking over", so basically hacking the thing. Cue hacking minigame? Each time it is done, a new one pops up, and for each completed hacking minigame you get a little extra nudge on that progression bar. This would allow multiple participants to fight on a "non-combat" level instead of an automatic, boring stalemate. Defenders would be doing the same thing. They link to their structure with the Entosis, and for each successful hacking minigame solved, they're pushing the attacker bar down.