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T2 stuff for capitals ?

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solrac lara
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2015-08-09 21:38:42 UTC
Is more of a noob question why we dont have t2 ammo or guns or anything like that for capital ships or why T2 capital ships arent a thing what would happen if that was the case.
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2015-08-09 21:40:17 UTC
solrac lara wrote:
Is more of a noob question why we dont have t2 ammo or guns or anything like that for capital ships or why T2 capital ships arent a thing what would happen if that was the case.

T2 capitals are a thing.
Jump Freighters.

As to why there aren't more: they can't even get the ones we have into a comfortable balance. We damned sure don't need T2 variations of them right now.
OverlordY
Interspan
#3 - 2015-08-09 22:14:11 UTC
T2 Modules for them would be good. Its about time really...
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#4 - 2015-08-09 22:49:15 UTC
solrac lara wrote:
Is more of a noob question why we dont have t2 ammo or guns or anything like that for capital ships or why T2 capital ships arent a thing what would happen if that was the case.

To avoid further power creep.

Carriers and dreadnoughts are arguably "okay" as-is. They still need a little bit of tuning though.
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2015-08-10 01:30:36 UTC
OverlordY wrote:
T2 Modules for them would be good. Its about time really...

Hell, scorch might be the savior the rev needs.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2015-08-10 01:56:59 UTC
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:
solrac lara wrote:
Is more of a noob question why we dont have t2 ammo or guns or anything like that for capital ships or why T2 capital ships arent a thing what would happen if that was the case.

T2 capitals are a thing.
Jump Freighters.

As to why there aren't more: they can't even get the ones we have into a comfortable balance. We damned sure don't need T2 variations of them right now.


Freighters, and jump freighters, aren't capitals. I suggest you look up the definition of 'capital ship' before asserting otherwise.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#7 - 2015-08-10 02:12:49 UTC
Fun fact: T2 Siege and Triage modules didn't exist until the Crucible expansion.
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2015-08-10 02:18:47 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:
solrac lara wrote:
Is more of a noob question why we dont have t2 ammo or guns or anything like that for capital ships or why T2 capital ships arent a thing what would happen if that was the case.

T2 capitals are a thing.
Jump Freighters.

As to why there aren't more: they can't even get the ones we have into a comfortable balance. We damned sure don't need T2 variations of them right now.


Freighters, and jump freighters, aren't capitals. I suggest you look up the definition of 'capital ship' before asserting otherwise.

They are technically considered capitals, regardless of the fact that they do not require the Capital Ship skill. Much the same could be said of the Orca. Feel free to check their location in the item database if you disagree.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#9 - 2015-08-10 02:23:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Primary This Rifter
I really hate having/seeing this argument over and over again. I'd love if CCP could resolve it once and for all. Preferably by moving freighters, jump freighters, and the Orca out of the "Capital Ships" market submenu.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#10 - 2015-08-10 02:26:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:
solrac lara wrote:
Is more of a noob question why we dont have t2 ammo or guns or anything like that for capital ships or why T2 capital ships arent a thing what would happen if that was the case.

T2 capitals are a thing.
Jump Freighters.

As to why there aren't more: they can't even get the ones we have into a comfortable balance. We damned sure don't need T2 variations of them right now.


Freighters, and jump freighters, aren't capitals. I suggest you look up the definition of 'capital ship' before asserting otherwise.

Like this one:

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Item_Database:Ships:Capital_Ships

But then of course there is this one:

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Capital_ship

If CCP can't even get it straight, there's no surprise that there would also be different views in the player community, all of which are right if you use CCP sources as a reference.

So that would make freighters and jump freighters both Capital ships and not Capital ships at the same time. Go figure.
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2015-08-10 02:29:14 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
I really hate having/seeing this argument over and over again. I'd love if CCP could resolve it once and for all. Preferably by putting them elsewhere in the market instead of under the "Capitals" tab.

And when they do, they really need to come up with a better name for the components used to make all of them (especially the Jump Freighters, since those components are used for literally nothing but JFs). Blink
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2015-08-10 02:44:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:
solrac lara wrote:
Is more of a noob question why we dont have t2 ammo or guns or anything like that for capital ships or why T2 capital ships arent a thing what would happen if that was the case.

T2 capitals are a thing.
Jump Freighters.

As to why there aren't more: they can't even get the ones we have into a comfortable balance. We damned sure don't need T2 variations of them right now.


Freighters, and jump freighters, aren't capitals. I suggest you look up the definition of 'capital ship' before asserting otherwise.

They are technically considered capitals, regardless of the fact that they do not require the Capital Ship skill. Much the same could be said of the Orca. Feel free to check their location in the item database if you disagree.


Unless you've seen freighters being used as front-line combat ships, then there is nothing 'technical' about it, they aren't capital ships, regardless of their arbitrary place of listing on the market or what in-game materials are required to build them, which was probably done out of coding convenience. Again, look up the definition of capital ship before asserting otherwise. I will provide an excerpt:

The capital ships of a navy are its most important warships; they generally possess the heaviest firepower and armor and are traditionally much larger than other naval vessels. A capital ship is generally a leading or a primary ship in a naval fleet.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2015-08-10 02:48:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Gallowmere Rorschach
Remiel Pollard wrote:

Unless you've seen freighters being used as front-line combat ships, then there is nothing 'technical' about it, they aren't capital ships, regardless of their arbitrary place of listing on the market or what in-game materials are required to build them, which was probably done out of coding convenience. Again, look up the definition of capital ship before asserting otherwise. I will provide an excerpt:

The capital ships of a navy are its most important warships; they generally possess the heaviest firepower and armor and are traditionally much larger than other naval vessels. A capital ship is generally a leading or a primary ship in a naval fleet.

I would agree with you, if not for the fact that they insisted upon calling the JF T2 components Capital xxxxx xxxxx, and those components are used for nothing other than Jump Freighter construction. I could give a pass on the T1 stuff, simply because, hell, even POS towers require Capital Construction Parts to build.

However, they made a specific line of components, for a specific line of ships, with the word Capital in every single one of them.
Jump Freighters.

Sounds to me like CCP need to make up their damned minds. Blink

EDIT: also, Rorquals don't fit your definition of a capital ship here either. Would you argue that Rorqs are not capitals either, since they are not exactly designed as warships (though in theory they could be used for it)?
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2015-08-10 05:46:02 UTC
Since CCP is unclear, here's my definition: capital ship is anything that has a jump drive.

So JF and Rorq yes, freighter and orca no.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2015-08-10 05:52:20 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Since CCP is unclear, here's my definition: capital ship is anything that has a jump drive.

So JF and Rorq yes, freighter and orca no.

Black Ops are capitals, guys.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#16 - 2015-08-10 05:52:30 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Since CCP is unclear, here's my definition: capital ship is anything that has a jump drive.

So JF and Rorq yes, freighter and orca no.

... and Black Ops?

Gotcha!
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2015-08-10 05:55:56 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Since CCP is unclear, here's my definition: capital ship is anything that has a jump drive.

So JF and Rorq yes, freighter and orca no.

... and Black Ops?

Gotcha!
nah, that's a special covert snowflake jump drive, doesn't count

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#18 - 2015-08-10 13:19:12 UTC
Orcas and freighters let capital wrecks behind them.

My 2 cents...

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#19 - 2015-08-10 13:45:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
For “capital ship” to be a meaningful class, it needs to be defined on characteristics that set that class aside from all ships of other classes.

So, characteristics that are common and unique to all obvious capital ships:
• Need a (S)CSAA to be assembled at a POS
• Have the Capital Ship skill as a prerequisite.
• Can use XL-sized modules
• Have to use XL-sized rigs
• Cannot be constructed and are not allowed in highsec except by grandfathering.
• ≥1Tg mass to restrict their wormhole travel.
(• Up until recently, couldn't even use star gates but had to rely on jumping…).

Characteristics that offer no help at all:
• Market placement (contains lots of ships that share none of the capship characteristics, per the above).
• Advanced Starship Command (used for lots of ships that share none of the capship characteristics).
• Packed volume ≥1.3Mm³ (same for lots of ships that share none of the capship characteristics).
• Sheer model size (some battleships compete in size).
• Signature radius in the thousands (same as for lots of ships that share none of the capship characteristics).

Characteristics that are not unique to capital ships:
• Jump drives (blops)
• Construction components (blops)

If we check the oddball ships against this:
• Freighters, JFs and Indy Command ships only need LSAAs.
• Freighters, JFs and Indy Command ships don't require the Capital Ship skill.
• Freighters, JFs and Indy Command ships can't used XL-sized modules.
• Freighters, and JFs can't use rigs; Indy Command uses L-sized rigs.
• Freighters, JFs and Indy Command ships are allowed and can be constructed in highsec.
• Freighters, JFs and Indy Command ships all have <1Tg mass.
• Indy Command ships have <1.3Mm³ packed volume.
• Indy Command ships don't require Advanced Starship Command
• Indy Command ships have a BS-sized sig radius.

e: ooh, one more…
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#20 - 2015-08-10 14:03:02 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:
solrac lara wrote:
Is more of a noob question why we dont have t2 ammo or guns or anything like that for capital ships or why T2 capital ships arent a thing what would happen if that was the case.

T2 capitals are a thing.
Jump Freighters.

As to why there aren't more: they can't even get the ones we have into a comfortable balance. We damned sure don't need T2 variations of them right now.


Freighters, and jump freighters, aren't capitals. I suggest you look up the definition of 'capital ship' before asserting otherwise.

They are technically considered capitals, regardless of the fact that they do not require the Capital Ship skill. Much the same could be said of the Orca. Feel free to check their location in the item database if you disagree.


Unless you've seen freighters being used as front-line combat ships, then there is nothing 'technical' about it, they aren't capital ships, regardless of their arbitrary place of listing on the market or what in-game materials are required to build them, which was probably done out of coding convenience. Again, look up the definition of capital ship before asserting otherwise. I will provide an excerpt:

The capital ships of a navy are its most important warships; they generally possess the heaviest firepower and armor and are traditionally much larger than other naval vessels. A capital ship is generally a leading or a primary ship in a naval fleet.
Your disagreement is with CCP then. We're not wrong to use their own classification in the context of a conversation about their game.

They're listed as capital ships on the market and 12 of 16 parts used between the T1/T2 variants contain the word "capital". If you want to claim this is only done out of convenience you'll need to provide evidence to that effect.

There are all our dominion

Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
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