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[Aegis] Missile balance package

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Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#941 - 2015-07-25 16:27:03 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Most missiles are balanced around having bleed on a single-webbed AB target of the same size. At least that's what I see. If you can apply 2 webs to a target then things get exciting (also you no longer have a need for mgc unless the enemy are overloaded on links or oversized AB).

A fairly capable fleet of hml could conceivably consist of a pair of huginns with 1tp 1web and any damage bonused ship with a single mgc in the mid per ship. If you wanted to get really pedantic there are other things you could add but for a basic missile fleet this is functional.


That's putting a whole lot of faith into a small amount of ships for the application of the entire fleet.
You'd be better off dropping the MGC and having everyone fit a TP.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#942 - 2015-07-25 17:12:56 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Most missiles are balanced around having bleed on a single-webbed AB target of the same size. At least that's what I see. If you can apply 2 webs to a target then things get exciting (also you no longer have a need for mgc unless the enemy are overloaded on links or oversized AB).

A fairly capable fleet of hml could conceivably consist of a pair of huginns with 1tp 1web and any damage bonused ship with a single mgc in the mid per ship. If you wanted to get really pedantic there are other things you could add but for a basic missile fleet this is functional.


That's putting a whole lot of faith into a small amount of ships for the application of the entire fleet.
You'd be better off dropping the MGC and having everyone fit a TP.


And still get speed tanked once the sigR portion of the formula reaches 1?
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#943 - 2015-07-25 17:37:35 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Most missiles are balanced around having bleed on a single-webbed AB target of the same size. At least that's what I see. If you can apply 2 webs to a target then things get exciting (also you no longer have a need for mgc unless the enemy are overloaded on links or oversized AB).

A fairly capable fleet of hml could conceivably consist of a pair of huginns with 1tp 1web and any damage bonused ship with a single mgc in the mid per ship. If you wanted to get really pedantic there are other things you could add but for a basic missile fleet this is functional.


That's putting a whole lot of faith into a small amount of ships for the application of the entire fleet.
You'd be better off dropping the MGC and having everyone fit a TP.


And still get speed tanked once the sigR portion of the formula reaches 1?


And this is part of why missiles aren't that popular in fleets..

However, you're always going to need tackle, but having a dedicated TP boat, when you can just put 1 TP on each ship, is a waist of a pilot.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#944 - 2015-07-26 03:55:19 UTC
And that depends entirely on the level of engagement. If we presume this fight takes place in lowsec then every missile ship is fitting a point and a tp. That's 1/3rd of your slots on the generous ships. Prop mod that's either half or 1 slot left.

I'd rather invest in a couple of dedicated boats at that point.
Oxide Ammar
#945 - 2015-07-26 11:37:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Oxide Ammar
[Nemesis, Alpha Strike Nemesis]

Missile Guidance Enhancer II
Ballistic Control System II

1MN Afterburner II
Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Precision Script
Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Precision Script
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Polarized Torpedo Launcher, Inferno Javelin Torpedo
Polarized Torpedo Launcher, Inferno Javelin Torpedo
Polarized Torpedo Launcher, Inferno Javelin Torpedo
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
[Empty High slot]

Small Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Small Warhead Rigor Catalyst II


Zainou 'Gypsy' CPU Management EE-603
Zainou 'Deadeye' Missile Projection MP-703
Zainou 'Deadeye' Guided Missile Precision GP-803
Zainou 'Deadeye' Target Navigation Prediction TN-903
Crash Booster

7.3k/s torp speed, 186m explosion radius overheated

still torpedoes flight time sucks though, since range is your tank.

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#946 - 2015-07-27 02:09:46 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:
finally got off my butt to log in and fit these mods. I like them for my pve. for the same range i get a sub 300 exp radius and 180 exp vel vs 330 and 160. plus i can get more application if I wanted to get closer. Had to change a rig and use implants for fitting to get a low and a mid to fit.


I'm really curious how strong it would of been prenerf. As i like them currently for my needs. and more range and application can only make my pve more effective.


Previously it made the most sense to fit 2 rigors (being a T2 ship), if you now use a MGC it makes more sense to fit 1 rigor and 1 flare and even with a precision script MGC you will perform LESS than before the changes when you'd just use rigs. That's the big gripe, the actual problem: due to the stacking changes you're now forced to waste a mid slot while still doing worse than before.



expect that I don't have the rig slots after range rigs for either flare or rigor. Also only ever shooting at structures and battleships in the mission I do so 337 exp radius and 160m/s exp velocity without implants or drugs gets me enough application most of the time.

Now I can get the range out of other mods and with knowledge of the mission more application if range is already good enough.

Now I could go really bling and start to use faction BCS and then a 3rd BCS one of them makes more sense than the MGE but I still find that a little cost prohibitive.

Well now i see it in EFT I might have to try it.

[Purifier, stupid bling]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Ballistic Control System II

1MN Afterburner II
Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Range Script
Medium Shield Extender II

Polarized Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Polarized Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Polarized Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
[empty high slot]

Small Ionic Field Projector II
Small Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II

can bling out the afterburner also. 794dps with my skills 811 all V. 3rd navy BCS only nets another 10dps. only needs 6% cpu which is geno's + 1% slot 6. targeting range of 97km navy missile range of 89 with range script.


of course once I start feeling/wanting to min-max everything then a 3 link booster will start following me around I think.

Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#947 - 2015-07-27 04:35:47 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:
finally got off my butt to log in and fit these mods. I like them for my pve. for the same range i get a sub 300 exp radius and 180 exp vel vs 330 and 160. plus i can get more application if I wanted to get closer. Had to change a rig and use implants for fitting to get a low and a mid to fit.


I'm really curious how strong it would of been prenerf. As i like them currently for my needs. and more range and application can only make my pve more effective.


Previously it made the most sense to fit 2 rigors (being a T2 ship), if you now use a MGC it makes more sense to fit 1 rigor and 1 flare and even with a precision script MGC you will perform LESS than before the changes when you'd just use rigs. That's the big gripe, the actual problem: due to the stacking changes you're now forced to waste a mid slot while still doing worse than before.



expect that I don't have the rig slots after range rigs for either flare or rigor. Also only ever shooting at structures and battleships in the mission I do so 337 exp radius and 160m/s exp velocity without implants or drugs gets me enough application most of the time.

Now I can get the range out of other mods and with knowledge of the mission more application if range is already good enough.

Now I could go really bling and start to use faction BCS and then a 3rd BCS one of them makes more sense than the MGE but I still find that a little cost prohibitive.

Well now i see it in EFT I might have to try it.

[Purifier, stupid bling]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Ballistic Control System II

1MN Afterburner II
Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Range Script
Medium Shield Extender II

Polarized Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Polarized Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Polarized Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
[empty high slot]

Small Ionic Field Projector II
Small Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II

can bling out the afterburner also. 794dps with my skills 811 all V. 3rd navy BCS only nets another 10dps. only needs 6% cpu which is geno's + 1% slot 6. targeting range of 97km navy missile range of 89 with range script.


of course once I start feeling/wanting to min-max everything then a 3 link booster will start following me around I think.



Uhh.. There's a few issues with that fit that will help you out.

1) polarized launchers take all your resists. The shield extender is going you no good. Get rid of it

2) without range rigs, you're looking at 60km with caldari navy torps. Unless the target is locked down by a friendly, then they'll warp long before the torps hit. If they are locked down, then your friendlies will have the target down before your missiles hit.
Drop the range rig and either fit application, or more DPS.

3) PWNAGE TPs have a 30 km range. Take out the MGC and fit two TPs(one in the empty mid from the shield extender) and now you have more fitting capability. You can possibly put on a MWD. At 40km, you're either too far for your target to hit, or you'll be too fast for the target to track.


All this leads to why the MGC sucks.
1) If you're in a boat that needs the range, you're also in need of the application, so it's a catch 22.

2) missile flight time at range negates any reason to be at extended ranges. 40km is the furthest you want to be with any missile system, due to flight time, which is significantly more true for torps.

3) TPs are stronger within the ranges that you want to be using missiles.

4) all this coupled with the reduced fitting costs of TPs make MGCs even less useful.

5) if you want that kind of range with a Bomber, you might as well fit cruise missiles.


See, what's funny about the MGC is how the bonus works.
If you're shooting cruise at range, you would want the MGC for application, as you're going to be outside TP optimal.
However, since they have a smaller exp radius than torps, you actually get less bonus effect from the MGC.

If you're trying to get range with torps, you already have significantly less range than with cruise. Based on the low range of torps, you're getting less bonus than cruise, which don't need the extra range.

The way the go bi using system works, it's counter intuitive.
Long range missiles need a higher bonus to application from MGCs to suggest use over TPs, while TPs are the best choice for Short range missiles due to the range limitation.
However, short range missiles need a higher range bonus to make up for their native short range, while long range missiles don't need range bonuses, and if they do, they're best suited with a rig.

The problem then becomes, how do you make this work?
Well, you can't unless you give MGCs different bonuses to short and long range missiles, which I don't see happening.

The best option here is to redesign range rigs and TPs.

Design range rigs to give high bonuses to range. This will buff short range missiles, while being somewhat redundant to long range missiles, due to their application time and natively high range already.

Then, design TPs to no longer have an optimal, but instead to have a max range.. The shorter the range, the higher the bonus, making them more effective for short range missiles, where more bonus is needed, while giving long range missiles a less effective version (which is fine considering they need less) but it gives them a version that is effective for their intended range.

Now, you can get rid of MGCs and MGEs all together, as they don't fit well with any build and are especially less useful than anything else.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#948 - 2015-07-27 05:30:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Rift
Joe Risalo wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:
[quote=Tiberius Heth][quote=Lady Rift] quotes and things


Uhh.. There's a few issues with that fit that will help you out.

1) polarized launchers take all your resists. The shield extender is going you no good. Get rid of it

2) without range rigs, you're looking at 60km with caldari navy torps. Unless the target is locked down by a friendly, then they'll warp long before the torps hit. If they are locked down, then your friendlies will have the target down before your missiles hit.
Drop the range rig and either fit application, or more DPS.

3) PWNAGE TPs have a 30 km range. Take out the MGC and fit two TPs(one in the empty mid from the shield extender) and now you have more fitting capability. You can possibly put on a MWD. At 40km, you're either too far for your target to hit, or you'll be too fast for the target to track.


All this leads to why the MGC sucks.
1) If you're in a boat that needs the range, you're also in need of the application, so it's a catch 22.

2) missile flight time at range negates any reason to be at extended ranges. 40km is the furthest you want to be with any missile system, due to flight time, which is significantly more true for torps.

3) TPs are stronger within the ranges that you want to be using missiles.

4) all this coupled with the reduced fitting costs of TPs make MGCs even less useful.

5) if you want that kind of range with a Bomber, you might as well fit cruise missiles.


See, what's funny about the MGC is how the bonus works.
If you're shooting cruise at range, you would want the MGC for application, as you're going to be outside TP optimal.
However, since they have a smaller exp radius than torps, you actually get less bonus effect from the MGC.

If you're trying to get range with torps, you already have significantly less range than with cruise. Based on the low range of torps, you're getting less bonus than cruise, which don't need the extra range.

The way the go bi using system works, it's counter intuitive.
Long range missiles need a higher bonus to application from MGCs to suggest use over TPs, while TPs are the best choice for Short range missiles due to the range limitation.
However, short range missiles need a higher range bonus to make up for their native short range, while long range missiles don't need range bonuses, and if they do, they're best suited with a rig.

The problem then becomes, how do you make this work?
Well, you can't unless you give MGCs different bonuses to short and long range missiles, which I don't see happening.

The best option here is to redesign range rigs and TPs.

Design range rigs to give high bonuses to range. This will buff short range missiles, while being somewhat redundant to long range missiles, due to their application time and natively high range already.

Then, design TPs to no longer have an optimal, but instead to have a max range.. The shorter the range, the higher the bonus, making them more effective for short range missiles, where more bonus is needed, while giving long range missiles a less effective version (which is fine considering they need less) but it gives them a version that is effective for their intended range.

Now, you can get rid of MGCs and MGEs all together, as they don't fit well with any build and are especially less useful than anything else.



you cant fit curises on a bomber. And for these missions where you start out at 100~110km. To slow boat with just an afterburner 40-50 km while also keeping traversal up against the ship you are approaching is a pain (the bomber does ~850m/s straight at target those torps are doing 6.5km/s). Also note it take less than 1 reload per mission. I want to start shooting right away.
I have never seen a normal mission rat warp away from me no matter how long I took to kill it.

As i said I hate the aggravation of when a TP misses. even if its still better at the 100km range.

FW missions are all in low sec with lots of every size npc rats. size and traversal are the only thing that keeps you alive. A medium extender lets you take one shot instead of just becoming a pod while Polarized launchers get rid of your resists but as a bomber has bad resist anyway it doesn't change anything also 12 less cpu per launcher on a ship that is starved for cpu.

i could run with out polarized launcher and no tank but then its the same thing as polarized + med extender as both can only take 1 shot.


There is a reason I state what I'm using it for each time I talk about them because it is a very specialized role on which I put even more conditions.

Also note I do not run the bling only the launchers. You can't cloak within 30km of the mission beacon anymore and rats change targets.


So unless someone wants to give SB back their cruise missiles that they once had I need to make torps go out to 100km ish to make my life easier and do as much dmg as possible.


Edit: before making suggestion know that
- it has to start shooting when it lands up to 110km away from target. This means targeting and missile range.
- as much dps as possible without to much bling
- can't cloak to get into range
- needs to survive a hit from a amarr battleship (for when I mess up traversals)
- be fast and slippery enough to get though many gates without being caught
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#949 - 2015-07-27 05:44:43 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:

you cant fit curises on a bomber. And for these missions where you start out at 100~110km. To slow boat with just an afterburner 40-50 km while also keeping traversal up against the ship you are approaching is a pain (the bomber does ~850m/s straight at target those torps are doing 6.5km/s). Also note it take less than 1 reload per mission. I want to start shooting right away.
I have never seen a normal mission rat warp away from me no matter how long I took to kill it.

As i said I hate the aggravation of when a TP misses. even if its still better at the 100km range.

FW missions are all in low sec with lots of every size npc rats. size and traversal are the only thing that keeps you alive. A medium extender lets you take one shot instead of just becoming a pod while Polarized launchers get rid of your resists but as a bomber has bad resist anyway it doesn't change anything also 12 less cpu per launcher on a ship that is starved for cpu.

i could run with out polarized launcher and no tank but then its the same thing as polarized + med extender as both can only take 1 shot.


There is a reason I state what I'm using it for each time I talk about them because it is a very specialized role on which I put even more conditions.

Also note I do not run the bling only the launchers. You can't cloak within 30km of the mission beacon anymore and rats change targets.


So unless someone wants to give SB back their cruise missiles that they once had I need to make torps go out to 100km ish to make my life easier and do as much dmg as possible.


Edit: before making suggestion know that
- it has to start shooting when it lands up to 110km away from target. This means targeting and missile range.
- as much dps as possible without to much bling
- can't cloak to get into range
- needs to survive a hit from a amarr battleship (for when I mess up traversals)
- be fast and slippery enough to get though many gates without being caught


Ahh, see, that's where you lost me... I was assuming bomber, so PVP fit...
Didn't realize that was a PVE fit, which makes more sense.

That said, I still think my suggestion or rebalancing TPs and range rigs would suit you better than MGCs.
Even without that, TPs and range rigs are still better than MGCs, but as you stated, at 100kms TPs aren't always hitting.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#950 - 2015-07-27 18:36:52 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:
finally got off my butt to log in and fit these mods. I like them for my pve. for the same range i get a sub 300 exp radius and 180 exp vel vs 330 and 160. plus i can get more application if I wanted to get closer. Had to change a rig and use implants for fitting to get a low and a mid to fit.


I'm really curious how strong it would of been prenerf. As i like them currently for my needs. and more range and application can only make my pve more effective.


May I ask what you're flying in?

I fly a Golem and have tried them with both Torps and cruise.
In both cases, 3 TPs or 2tps and a web always performed better.

I don't need the range for cruise, and if I try to use them to add range to Torps, then I lose application.
That said, my max lock range is 118km, and my TPs seem to still be more effective at that range, dispite being well out of optimal.



Again, the Golem gets bonused TP so you're never EVER going to see a reason to fit them there, unless you want the range. Also TP is binary, they either will work or they don't and at 100km they have a bout a 50% chance to apply (assuming maxed TP skills).


It is ~80% effective at 50% falloff.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#951 - 2015-07-27 20:58:03 UTC
Whenever this comes up all turrets and drones and smartbombs and logi only have terrible downsides and nobody ever uses them and when missiles want to have a say in a fight it is totally overpowered, the end of the world of warcraft the end of nullsec the end of faction warfare and the end of suicide ganking mining barges.

For the last time the range that all turrets have to reach to do zero damage is optimal + 2x falloff. At optimal + falloff you start doing 50% damage not zero and the range of all turrets is always the same, regardless of your movement or anyone elses.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#952 - 2015-07-29 00:06:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
So, what's the consensus? Missiles still suck and drones are Op, yes?
Once again CCP Fall threw us a bone... laced with strychnine.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#953 - 2015-07-29 01:02:26 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
So, what's the consensus? Missiles still suck and drones are Op, yes?
Once again CCP Fall threw us a bone... laced with strychnine.


Well to answer that we have to have a readit or facetwitter and thumble account, since the CCP dev no longer talk to us one here. The forums are dead.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Matt Faithbringer
YOLO so no taxes please
#954 - 2015-07-29 07:43:29 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
So, what's the consensus? Missiles still suck and drones are Op, yes?
Once again CCP Fall threw us a bone... laced with strychnine.


Well to answer that we have to have a readit or facetwitter and thumble account, since the CCP dev no longer talk to us one here. The forums are dead.


yeah, but reddit is fun. So many high SP people there. Nowhere else I saw so many people, everyone with S h i t Posting V.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#955 - 2015-07-30 00:20:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Back to our own private discussion (since no one from CCP is chiming in)... Other than freeing up slots for Hyperspacial rigs, is there really any other use for the MGC? Especially on a ship like the Golem which arguably has a fairly decent TP bonus.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Mario Putzo
#956 - 2015-07-30 01:29:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3f38ok/major_bug_with_missile_volleys_completely/

how about we fix this too.

not only do missiles deal less peak damage against like sized targets, less applied damage against like sized targets compared to similar sized turrets...they also have worse accuracy (against larger targets!) despite "apparently" hitting 100% of the time...about that.

Quote:
Situation:
Orthrus has 55km optimal (in-game).
Target is sitting at 47km from the orthrus.
Both ships are at 0.0 m/s not moving.
Orthrus dumps its 20 missile volleys into the target. Typhoon takes 11 hits. Logs from both sides confirms only 11 hits have been taken.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#957 - 2015-07-30 04:09:49 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Back to our own private discussion (since no one from CCP is chiming in)... Other than freeing up slots for Hyperspacial rigs, is there really any other use for the MGC? Especially on a ship like the Golem which arguably has a fairly decent TP bonus.


And the almost surprising answer is a stunning no.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#958 - 2015-07-30 05:24:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Mario Putzo wrote:
how about we fix this too.

not only do missiles deal less peak damage against like sized targets, less applied damage against like sized targets compared to similar sized turrets...they also have worse accuracy (against larger targets!) despite "apparently" hitting 100% of the time...about that.

Except 11/20 isn't even remotely close to 100% - not by a long shot... This seems to be primarily affecting rapid launchers. Wait, who introduced these again? Could it be they're simply firing too fast, which wasn't a problem with the original RLMLs and the first iteration of RHMLs? It's too bad no one ever entertained the idea of slowing them down, increasing ammunition capacity and reducing reload time. Oh wait, we did...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Kasia en Tilavine
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#959 - 2015-07-30 07:17:44 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3f38ok/major_bug_with_missile_volleys_completely/

.
[/quote]

Lolololol this is hilarious.

How long until ccp responds? Days? Weeks?

This is an interesting glitch. I would like to know more about why. It kind of looks like something to do with travel time and the server tick. More sconce needs to be done.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#960 - 2015-07-30 07:40:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Kasia en Tilavine wrote:
Lolololol this is hilarious.
How long until ccp responds? Days? Weeks?

This is an interesting glitch. I would like to know more about why. It kind of looks like something to do with travel time and the server tick. More sconce needs to be done.

Hey, did I mention we're still waiting for the rapid launcher ammunition swap fix? But since this isn't a 'design' issue, I suspect we'll see a much faster response.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.