Player Features and Ideas Discussion

If that is the case, most meaningful choices will be - don't fly missile boats.

We've been down that road before.


Edit...

My suggestion is that CCP get rid of these modules.

Instead, change TPs so that they no longer have a optimal/falloff, but instead have a max range.

The modules will be balanced based off max range, fitting, cap usage, and effectiveness.

Examples:
module - range - effect - cap usage
TP 1 - 75 km - 25% - 10gj
PWN - 40 km - 32% - 16gj
PWNT - 50 km - 28% - 12gj
PWND - 75 km - 26% - 12gj
PWNAGE - 100km - 30% - 14gj
TP 2 - 125km - 30% - 16gj
Inception - 75 km - 23% - 6gj - lowest fitting costs, cap, and lowest bonus but mid range
Domination - 40 km - 35% - 16gj
Republic - 150km - 32% - 18gj

This is just a general guide and in no way represents what they "should" be, but instead a concept.

This gives both short and long range missiles a TP that will aid them best. The shorter the range, the more effect, the more cap/fitting costs.

Now, get rid of the damn MGC and MGE. MGE needs to be gotten rid of regardless, as it sucks.

Now, they could possibly introduce a HIGH SLOT module that buffs range.
Missiles are more like drones than they are turrets, so do like with drones and allow a range mod to be fitted in the HS.
This means certain missile boats will be able to increase range with the HS modules due to ultility highs, but will have to choose between utility and range.
Other missile boats that don't have a free HS are typically used for brawl/kite fits anyway, to which they don't need the addl range.
If CCP wishes to factor this in, then give some more missile boats utility highs.

Why everybody want range on missiles? They need time to hit target, the bigger the longer. Delayed damage is huge problem, why eveybody using sentries? Range will push missiles into auxilla dps hulls. This is not straight: I lose some tank but gain some range. They started balance from a** side. They need to differ missiles range / launchers/ ammo. Then introduce new modules, maybe even prenerfed. Then tweaking them.

If you make turrets better at the same time, you will simply maintain the same gap as before, except now everyone makes isk faster.

Yeah and the upward spiral continues. That is not our intention. That is not my intention. People are always very quick in screaming overpowered but the thing I am being accused of the most is not looking at the big picture but I do.

Whenever this discussion comes up the point of view becomes very narrow and it is all forgotten that missiles are not the only thing that can shoot stuff.

Remember medium railguns used to be a joke for over a decade? Now that railguns do damage people scream overpowered again.
But it was totally fine when minmatar guns were fit on everything with a turret slot for over four years.

That capsuleers were so used to a turret boat and keeping their transversal up while approaching a missiles wasn't giving them the same result it is overpowered all of a sudden. They had much more range with that approach - how dare they?

Oceans later missile application became the running gag that never got old.

I am not talking about damage in hitpoints, I am trying to get application for all my fellow Caldari pilots. Missile damage got increased as "compensation" but the damage wasn't really in question all these years - the application was.

CCP may even decrease the damage of missiles back to 2009 values for all I care but increase the application theirof.

And please for arguments sake, please everyone remember that missiles need to be launched first, then accelerate and fly around for some time to do damage if any.

Any more comparisons with turrets are moot at this point, I heard them all, we heard them all. Go ahead and take a look, I do use turret boats all the time and yes I really do have 173 million skillpoints to back up my claims about them and other things.

I may still be the carebear that could but I do much more pvp lately (plus the occasional pve to fund new ways to blow up stuff).

That makes no sense, how will ISO get made faster when turrets hit rats 100% as is? Is more than 100% application going to magically increase base damage? No.

In pvp, all turrets can hit anything at their optimal regardless of size if the pilot is good at flying, a TC and TE buff would only lower the skill bar for that 100% application if the pilot was willing to fit one. Essentially "pvp flight assist". Whereas on missile ships, there is no flying the pilot can do to improve damage, meaning application mods are damage mods. Only affecting certain areas of the damage curve as it applies to smaller and faster targets. MGE's are direct competitors to ballistic controls with the added benefit of range increase. They have to be competitive in that sense, and the MGC is a midslot damage mod that reduces tank/utility. It has to be valued against those things in terms of value.

and maybe it's time to remove guided-unguided names because they are both guided for short/long range. There are no unguided missiles in this game (bombs maybe).


and I have problems to kill astero with my drake (precisions, full flight of drones in blackhole) What does that prove? Astero is OP or Sabre has weak tank? Depends on fit I guess.

Maybe we need different approach here, which hulls would be OP if modules hit TQ without nerfs?

Torps aren't doing fine.

They're working on stealth bombers a ship that aside from being able to Cloak, move and align at frigate speed needs:

10% bonus on explosion radius and explosion velocity a level
20% bonus on missile velocity a level
and
15% damage a level

to let them be good.

If I may be so bold and talk about a ship that I have never flown and have no plan on flying it, the tornado. If I am not mistaken you can fit the 1400mm artilleries on it.
Now when you fly a turret boat with long range guns, you want to be as mobile as possible and you want to be at range away from your target.
You also want to fly in the opposite direction of where your target is which greatly improves your damage application. Your target my know this but let's say it is too slow to keep up.

From hereon out it becomes an angles game. Imagine your ship at a dot in space and your target as another dot in space. Your target maybe slower and mostly likely able to kill the tornado but it is too slow to keep up but it still tries.

Now here is the bullet point. Your target puts her or himself in a terrible position since the straighter the line between those two dots in space become, the better you track.
In this case the low base tracking of the 1400mm guns is totally irrelevant, only the range is important for calculating damage - devastating damage.

From my experience with lasers and railguns I strongly believe you will fit tracking enhancers on that tornado but even if you don't and have 2 nanos on and manage to keep your distance and angle in a good position (rapidly clicking in space like a mad girl) to correct your angles while you hammer your target down.

Now humans are a prime example of training habits and keeping them and while it is possible to fly in a way to not get hit and under your guns it is usually bad to try the same with missile ships.
The only thing that will happen is that the missile range will increase and everything is op.

Instead of flying away and warping to a better position they keep trying the very same thing they should already know will have the same result every time.


Back in the day when missiles had 100% application missiles where balanced by the fact that you can shoot them down, no weapon grouping and smaller ships could outrun the missile velocity until the flighttime ran out.

See, here's the problem with that Concept.
Missiles do have the best damage at long range, but no one uses them at long range, unless in a fleet fight where the target is already locked down.
That said, it's still preferred that you bring a long range turret boat for instant application because no one wants to wait for missiles to arrive.
You can lose part of your fleet before the first missile volley even hits the target, in some cases.

However, long range fights aren't too common due to your mentioned reduced DPS concern.
This puts your targets in close range, where turrets will always out DPS missiles, and you're typically locked down enough to where tracking isn't an issue.

This is why kite missile fits are typically the only used options for missiles, unless you're going in your face HAMs.
I think even most frigs will use lights over rockets, and same is the case for destroyers.
In the case of cruisers, HMLs suck so bad that cruisers typically always fit rapid lights.

Buffing missile velocity at the cost of flight time doesn't increase application, but instead decreases time to target, which will help to make long range missile systems (apart from lights) actually used.
The only time I ever really see cruise missiles being used in PVP is at the Alliance tournament, but even then they're out shined by turret boats.

Logi invalidates it, basically. Unless each volley will alpha a target off field, it's otherwise impossible to target swap effectively.

If you ARE alphaing things, the massive delay between redbox and impact means they could even warp off to a tactical, should the so choose.

And the thing is, if you have that many raven pilots, you're better off in turret boats like NApocs. You'll still alpha everything, without the travel time and all the bad stuff it brings with it.

And as the guy above me points out, if you die with missiles in flight, they disappear.