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Crime & Punishment

 
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HighSec Ganking and Appropriate Punishment
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Globby
Never Ignorant Gettin' Goals Accomplished
Gimme Da Loot
#301 - 2015-07-22 20:09:50 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Globby wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
lol, "I risk time". Seriously?


What is that supposed to mean? If I form up a fleet and wait two hours for a kill and nothing happens that's not a risk? I literally wasted 40+ man hours of time and made people less wanting to go on my fleets. Lol if you think time isn't a risk.

The risk is effort, we put all this effort in for NOTHING, we could have spent it on doing funcursions and make 4 billion in those same 40 man hours.
No, I don't consider time spent on a game to be a risk. Careful, you're bordering on a Gevlonish "but opportunity costs!" viewpoint here.


You're literally the embodiment of 'the minerals I mine are free.' with that mindset, that your time and effort have zero value.
Globby
Never Ignorant Gettin' Goals Accomplished
Gimme Da Loot
#302 - 2015-07-22 20:12:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Globby
"Yeah, it only took us three runs and three hours with a 45 man fleet to kill that logged off anshar in jita with four billion in ships, ganking is totally broken."


edit: Ganking is a self-regulating problem, if stuff gets ganked too much, profitability will go up and only the smart and attentive ones will remain. Less dumbs will haul and ganking will be less attractive. It's a cycle.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#303 - 2015-07-22 20:20:54 UTC
Globby wrote:
You're literally the embodiment of 'the minerals I mine are free.' with that mindset, that your time and effort have zero value.
Not quite, but if you go down the route of opportunity cost, then the riskiest activity is ship spinning, because you could be making so much more isk.

Risk in a given activity isn't defined by what you could be doing instead.

Specifically about MIMAF, it's true, minerals mined are free. The dumb part about that that people are really trying to get at isn't about he minerals being free, it's about the product value vs the material value. Regardless of how much you value your time, if the minerals are worth 50m and the manufactured product is worth 45m, then it's not worth producing. It;s not that they've undervalued their time, it's that they've undervalued their minerals when they produced the product. If it were all about time, then the best form of mining is incursions and anyone that mines is automatically stupid. But it's a game, and we all choose what we do based on whatever metrics of preference we want.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Globby
Never Ignorant Gettin' Goals Accomplished
Gimme Da Loot
#304 - 2015-07-22 20:26:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Globby
Lucas Kell wrote:
Globby wrote:
You're literally the embodiment of 'the minerals I mine are free.' with that mindset, that your time and effort have zero value.
Not quite, but if you go down the route of opportunity cost, then the riskiest activity is ship spinning, because you could be making so much more isk.

Risk in a given activity isn't defined by what you could be doing instead.

Specifically about MIMAF, it's true, minerals mined are free. The dumb part about that that people are really trying to get at isn't about he minerals being free, it's about the product value vs the material value. Regardless of how much you value your time, if the minerals are worth 50m and the manufactured product is worth 45m, then it's not worth producing. It;s not that they've undervalued their time, it's that they've undervalued their minerals when they produced the product. If it were all about time, then the best form of mining is incursions and anyone that mines is automatically stupid. But it's a game, and we all choose what we do based on whatever metrics of preference we want.


The risk is that all the effort I put into stalking said target is going to be wasted. I could alienate the people in my fleet by consistently providing no content, therefore losing popularity and no longer getting the minimum needed people to run a fleet, then I can never gank again.

It's a pretty big risk, sorry that someone whose never run a freighter fleet before couldn't see it.

Ganking is the risk imposed on people hauling waaaay too much than they should.

I've both antiganked and ganked, ran fleets and provided every role in every situation.

Ganking is the seizing of an opportunity, if haulers played intelligently ganking wouldn't exist. period.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#305 - 2015-07-22 20:39:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
And yet... it's risk/reward balance is out. It either need less reward or more risk. Nothing you say will change my opinion on that, so perhaps we need to agree to disagree.

Edit: Oh and consider the difference in risk/reward vs AGs. AGs get basically nothing and frequently risk more expensive ships. It's why it's so disorganised, because most people with sense are doing something worthwhile.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#306 - 2015-07-22 21:01:00 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
And yet... it's risk/reward balance is out.
And yet you're just a grunt and don't really know that. But hey, you have your opinion don't you. That's good enough for you. Blink

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#307 - 2015-07-22 21:15:31 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
And yet... it's risk/reward balance is out.
And yet you're just a grunt and don't really know that. But hey, you have your opinion don't you. That's good enough for you. Blink
lol, we all have opinions, and your point is? I make mine based on the experience I have. It seems a lot of the CODE crowd base theirs on "WAAAH, I DON'T WANT TO MAKE LESS ISK!". The fact that I opt to be a grunt these days doesn't mean my opinion holds any less value. Regardless, CCP will make the decisions. I'm eagerly awaiting the inevitable wardec changes almost entirely for the some of the other carebear PvPers tears.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Baaldor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#308 - 2015-07-22 21:18:54 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
And yet... it's risk/reward balance is out.
And yet you're just a grunt and don't really know that. But hey, you have your opinion don't you. That's good enough for you. Blink
lol, we all have opinions, and your point is? I make mine based on the experience I have. It seems a lot of the CODE crowd base theirs on "WAAAH, I DON'T WANT TO MAKE LESS ISK!". The fact that I opt to be a grunt these days doesn't mean my opinion holds any less value. Regardless, CCP will make the decisions. I'm eagerly awaiting the inevitable wardec changes almost entirely for the some of the other carebear PvPers tears.


^^^^HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

My sides are in orbit!
Mag's
Azn Empire
#309 - 2015-07-22 21:21:44 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Globby wrote:
You still do not acknowledge that standard gank fleets haven't been profitable for weeks.
I'm just a grunt these days, I don't have anything to do with the profit,
You have your opinion and can tell us about risk/reward balance. I'm sure that's great for you, just saying. Blink

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Globby
Never Ignorant Gettin' Goals Accomplished
Gimme Da Loot
#310 - 2015-07-22 21:41:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Globby
Friend, I already refuted your point that standard code and miniluv gank fleets operate in losses and have for a while. If you don't know this then you really aren't a ganker.

It's been pretty standard in eve's history that a lot of small, cheap ships should be able to kill single big, fat and expensive ships.
Bellatrix Invicta
Doomheim
#311 - 2015-07-22 21:51:30 UTC
244k in wallet because ganking is expensive.

Wait I mean ganking is free.

If you think you've won, think again.

The CODE always wins.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#312 - 2015-07-22 22:01:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Globby wrote:
Friend, I already refuted your point that standard code and miniluv gank fleets operate in losses and have for a while. If you don't know this then you really aren't a ganker.

It's been pretty standard in eve's history that a lot of small, cheap ships should be able to kill single big, fat and expensive ships.
Mate, you refuted nothing. I stated an opinion, you stated and opinion, that's all. I understand exactly where you're coming from, carebear.

Ed: I see some of the usual troll crowd are waking up. "We can't defeat him with fact so let's just shiptoast until the thread dies". Good show.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Renegade Heart
Doomheim
#313 - 2015-07-22 22:12:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Renegade Heart
It doesn't really matter if the standard CODE gank fleets are profitable or not. If it's fun doing it then it's all good. If more fun would be had doing profitable ganks, then do that instead?

Profitable ganking is certainly possible. I don't really understand what you two are arguing about. Are these tears?

I could add that fun is a form of profit too, at least in my eyes.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#314 - 2015-07-22 22:16:02 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
I see some of the usual troll crowd are waking up. "We can't defeat him with fact so let's just shiptoast until the thread dies". Good show.
One thing is true for sure, you're always good for irony. Lol

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#315 - 2015-07-22 22:18:22 UTC
ITT: Lucas spends the last three pages proving that he doesn't actually play the game anymore since they banned ISBotter mining fleets.

Turns out, neither the Goons gankers nor the CODE gankers have ever seen you gank a damn thing. And one of those groups has your API, to boot.

"Yeah I totally gank guys, you can believe me, but I want ganking banned even though I totally gank a lot."

I've heard better lies from my four year old.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Globby
Never Ignorant Gettin' Goals Accomplished
Gimme Da Loot
#316 - 2015-07-22 22:38:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Globby
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
ITT: Lucas spends the last three pages proving that he doesn't actually play the game anymore since they banned ISBotter mining fleets.

Turns out, neither the Goons gankers nor the CODE gankers have ever seen you gank a damn thing. And one of those groups has your API, to boot.

"Yeah I totally gank guys, you can believe me, but I want ganking banned even though I totally gank a lot."

I've heard better lies from my four year old.



i wish people wouldnt forget things over four hours, it would save for a bunch of repetetive arguments that ended like years ago.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#317 - 2015-07-23 01:48:25 UTC
Renegade Heart wrote:
It doesn't really matter if the standard CODE gank fleets are profitable or not. If it's fun doing it then it's all good. If more fun would be had doing profitable ganks, then do that instead?


It doesn't matter, they will cry anyway.

If it is profitable:
"Ganking is unbalanced and too easy, we should nerf ganking to add more risk and stuff because it's just too much ISK... and new players quit because they lose 10bil ISK Freighters! think of the children!"

If it is not profitable:
"They just gank to make people cry! Ganking for profit is ok but if you don't earn ISK it's just harassment! They make new players quit!! Will someone think of the children!!!"

Usually you find both arguments in a nerf-ganking thread side by side. Obviously they just want to remove ganking from highsec. The one last nerf thing is just a lie.

Evil RatKid
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#318 - 2015-07-23 06:54:18 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
ITT: Lucas spends the last three pages proving that he doesn't actually play the game anymore since they banned ISBotter mining fleets.

Turns out, neither the Goons gankers nor the CODE gankers have ever seen you gank a damn thing. And one of those groups has your API, to boot.

"Yeah I totally gank guys, you can believe me, but I want ganking banned even though I totally gank a lot."

I've heard better lies from my four year old.
You guys are just terribad at intel. It's all good.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#319 - 2015-07-23 08:00:31 UTC
Sounds to me like you're full of **** Lucas.
Jethro Amar
Arknights.
Fraternity.
#320 - 2015-07-23 08:11:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Jethro Amar
The only change I'd like to see is for concord to "arrest" the pod after action and transport it to nearest lowsec concord station. It doesn't make any real change for the gank itself, but it forces the gankers to play the game and interact with others instead of just "undock, warp, f1". It would force gankers to move through lowsec and hisec to their ganking system and give other players an opportunity to engage. Of course their medical clones would be moved to same lowsec station to avoid podexpress.

what gankers demand from haulers and miners is to scout ahead, be careful and interact. I'm sure they won't mind being held to the same standards as the carebears.