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Crime & Punishment

 
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HighSec Ganking and Appropriate Punishment

Author
Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#261 - 2015-07-22 14:59:13 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:
At the end of the day if players have a problem with a player activity they should do something about it. CCP shouldn't have to fix a problem that can be done by a player. NPC's are busy enough they don't need an increased workload.

So you're saying no mechanic should ever be balanced? Why was force projection nerfed? Players should have done something. Why was drone assist nerfed? Players should have done something. Why is fleet warp being nerfed? Players should do something.

You haven't proposed a mechanic balance this whole thread is an attempt to end ganking which is achievable by less then half the ganking force on the defenders side. I have with 3 toons in the last 2 weeks saved 2 freighters while being ganked with a combo of RR and jams. They were 8 and 12 in size and 3 people and the target managed to survive/win whatever you want to call it. That's repeatable and therefore balanced in my opinion. It's also counterable by the gankers depending on the effort/manpower they are willing to throw at the AG's. Welcome to Highsec where preparation is king and not always numbers. As for the rest of it *shrug* I couldn't care less about them but if you wanna argue those start a thread and I'm sure people will argue the merits of it there. In the mean while we are dealing with small gang stuff.

PS fleet warp hurt gankers more then anybody Blink

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin

Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#262 - 2015-07-22 15:00:25 UTC
Globby wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Globby wrote:
My thought on the issue is that if you're being ganked, it's 100% your own fault for making yourself look appealing enough to get ganked (or worthwhile) or being ignorant or AFK or logged off.
Therefore you believe that there should be no balance of rewards, and ganking should remain ludicrously profitable. Shock horror, you're a carebear.


Do you want to look at the rest of my correct points? Or are you just going to say something completely irrelevant and just pretend you're not wrong.

The balance of rewards is the hauler's choice, do you want CCP to limit them from how much they're hauling?

Lucas thrives on not only ignoring where he is wrong but pretending that the things he can't argue don't exist

CoolCool

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin

Sarah Flynt
Red Cross Mercenaries
Silent Infinity
#263 - 2015-07-22 15:09:08 UTC
Globby wrote:
The balance of rewards is the hauler's choice, do you want CCP to limit them from how much they're hauling?

I have to admit, that's one hell of a choice:

https://zkillboard.com/kill/48004752/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/48004365/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/48003643/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/48003406/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/48002786/

And that's just from today. How much less than NOTHING do you suggest people should carry in their freighters?

Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#264 - 2015-07-22 15:15:03 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Nope. I'm not "specifically choosing" anything, they specifically chose to put themselves in such a state, I'm just taking advantage of their foolishness, whereas you want to remove any consequences such stupid actions have.
Lol, of course you are.
*scan* Too tanked. *scan* Bad loot *scan* Jackpot! Let's go!

That's choosing.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You want to lower the bar even further for mining and hauling. Like they aren't already two of the lowest effort activities in any MMO.
The are also two of the lowest paid in EVE. Mining also needs a change to make it more complex however.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
The rewards are already perfectly balanced.
Nope

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Ganking in and of itself is a negative isk interaction. It relies entirely on bad choices made by other "players"(we all know they're not real players, but that's why you're here to white knight in the first place) to have any element of profitability at all. And even then it's subject to the loot fairy.
And yet any competent ganker is rolling in isk and can give you a good idea of how much income ganking will generate. What you're doing here is stating that because a gank can yield low that reward is low, but it's not, like exploration it's chance based but averages out. There's a reason miniluv can afford to send out tens of thousands of gankers for events like burn jita, and it's not because they mine a lot.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Globby
Never Ignorant Gettin' Goals Accomplished
Gimme Da Loot
#265 - 2015-07-22 15:18:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Globby
Sarah Flynt wrote:
Globby wrote:
The balance of rewards is the hauler's choice, do you want CCP to limit them from how much they're hauling?

I have to admit, that's one hell of a choice:

-removed zkillboard links-

And that's just from today. How much less than NOTHING do you suggest people should carry in their freighters?



You do realize that, hey, those are paid for BY THE BIG FREIGHTERS that came through the previous days, day after day, every day for the last two years, and those that will continue to come through because hey, they refuse to change their fits, or scout, or webber, or fit TANK.

Why are these people running through a system where there are gankers currently logged on and blinking red without a webber, or fitting CARGO EXPANDERS when they have no cargo? It's bad player decision.

I can tell you 100%, if any of those were bulkheaded they would not have died yesterday. I think we've maybe killed a dozen empty bulkheaded freighters in our lifetime outside of special burn events with 100 man fleets, and those were like "Hey, we already made 10 billion off that idiot hauling 30 billion in an afk untanked Charon, let's blast this guy as a celebration!"

Lucas Kell wrote:
And yet any competent ganker is rolling in isk and can give you a good idea of how much income ganking will generate. What you're doing here is stating that because a gank can yield low that reward is low, but it's not, like exploration it's chance based but averages out. There's a reason miniluv can afford to send out tens of thousands of gankers for events like burn jita, and it's not because they mine a lot.


What don't you get about the fact that the reward is 100% in the hands of the hauler? The haulers CHOOSE to haul with anti-tank through the most dangerous systems in prime time without scouting, using a webber, asking for help, asking for intel, or anything else?
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#266 - 2015-07-22 15:19:56 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Globby wrote:
My thought on the issue is that if you're being ganked, it's 100% your own fault for making yourself look appealing enough to get ganked (or worthwhile) or being ignorant or AFK or logged off.
Therefore you believe that there should be no balance of rewards, and ganking should remain ludicrously profitable. Shock horror, you're a carebear.
how exactly do you balance player choice?, what i mean is, its the players choice to load so much stuff in a freighter so should we nerf freighter by only allowing a certain amount of isk to be carried?
I've already stated what I'd change. It's not about balancing player choice, but introducing other factors and making the activity move complex. I'm not saying lower the reward (though if I were saying that it would be simple - lower drop rates from ganked ships), I'm saying bring the complexity up so that there's more individual effort and more active factors to consider while doing the actual gank.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#267 - 2015-07-22 15:30:10 UTC
Globby wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
And yet any competent ganker is rolling in isk and can give you a good idea of how much income ganking will generate. What you're doing here is stating that because a gank can yield low that reward is low, but it's not, like exploration it's chance based but averages out. There's a reason miniluv can afford to send out tens of thousands of gankers for events like burn jita, and it's not because they mine a lot.
What don't you get about the fact that the reward is 100% in the hands of the hauler? The haulers CHOOSE to haul with anti-tank through the most dangerous systems in prime time without scouting, using a webber, asking for help, asking for intel, or anything else?
What don't you get about the fact that it's irrelevant where the reward comes from when it comes to picking how to balance a mechanic? If an activity was found tomorrow that allowed people to harvest 50b isk per hour due to some other player's choices, you'd sure as hell see it balanced.

The whole game is PvP, no matter what you do, that is an element of the game, and reward will always be base on decisions of others. What you're saying is that other forms of income should still be balanced to a reasonable level, but ganking should always remain ludicrously profitable. That's because you're a carebear. The only balance you care about is in your wallet.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Globby
Never Ignorant Gettin' Goals Accomplished
Gimme Da Loot
#268 - 2015-07-22 15:30:41 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Globby wrote:
My thought on the issue is that if you're being ganked, it's 100% your own fault for making yourself look appealing enough to get ganked (or worthwhile) or being ignorant or AFK or logged off.
Therefore you believe that there should be no balance of rewards, and ganking should remain ludicrously profitable. Shock horror, you're a carebear.
how exactly do you balance player choice?, what i mean is, its the players choice to load so much stuff in a freighter so should we nerf freighter by only allowing a certain amount of isk to be carried?
I've already stated what I'd change. It's not about balancing player choice, but introducing other factors and making the activity move complex. I'm not saying lower the reward (though if I were saying that it would be simple - lower drop rates from ganked ships), I'm saying bring the complexity up so that there's more individual effort and more active factors to consider while doing the actual gank.



Give me something in the game that is more complex than freighter fleet ganking, or hyperdunking.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#269 - 2015-07-22 15:31:00 UTC
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:
You haven't proposed a mechanic balance
Wrong

Noragen Neirfallas wrote:
Lucas thrives on not only ignoring where he is wrong but pretending that the things he can't argue don't exist
Irrelevant, I'm never wrong. Never.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#270 - 2015-07-22 15:33:03 UTC
Globby wrote:
Give me something in the game that is more complex than freighter fleet ganking, or hyperdunking.
Easy. Sov mechanics. But no, incursions for a start. Even profitably doing industry on the scale of income that ganking generates is more complex than ganking.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Globby
Never Ignorant Gettin' Goals Accomplished
Gimme Da Loot
#271 - 2015-07-22 15:33:36 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Globby wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
And yet any competent ganker is rolling in isk and can give you a good idea of how much income ganking will generate. What you're doing here is stating that because a gank can yield low that reward is low, but it's not, like exploration it's chance based but averages out. There's a reason miniluv can afford to send out tens of thousands of gankers for events like burn jita, and it's not because they mine a lot.
What don't you get about the fact that the reward is 100% in the hands of the hauler? The haulers CHOOSE to haul with anti-tank through the most dangerous systems in prime time without scouting, using a webber, asking for help, asking for intel, or anything else?
What don't you get about the fact that it's irrelevant where the reward comes from when it comes to picking how to balance a mechanic? If an activity was found tomorrow that allowed people to harvest 50b isk per hour due to some other player's choices, you'd sure as hell see it balanced.

The whole game is PvP, no matter what you do, that is an element of the game, and reward will always be base on decisions of others. What you're saying is that other forms of income should still be balanced to a reasonable level, but ganking should always remain ludicrously profitable. That's because you're a carebear. The only balance you care about is in your wallet.


Ganking being profitable isn't because of CCP, or an ingame mechanic or anything, it's because people haul a lot more than they should. You can see that it's only a drop in the bucket because if hauling became inviable because of ganking you'd see a lot fewer haulers, which isn't happening.

If every hauler hauled properly, ganking would be dead in a month. Proper hauling has a 99% chance of success even in the worst situations. It's funny how broken moving a freighter through highsec is if you do it properly.
Globby
Never Ignorant Gettin' Goals Accomplished
Gimme Da Loot
#272 - 2015-07-22 15:38:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Globby
Lucas Kell wrote:
Globby wrote:
Give me something in the game that is more complex than freighter fleet ganking, or hyperdunking.
Easy. Sov mechanics. But no, incursions for a start. Even profitably doing industry on the scale of income that ganking generates is more complex than ganking.


What do you mean by sov mechanics? I mean, I could say that 'nullsec' is more complex, but that's like comparing apples to oranges, I probably should have phrased the question better.

Incursions are definitely not more complex, it's all completely calculated out perfectly. They know exactly what they're going into and what the possibilities are, it's PvE and it never changes. CODE. freighter fleets are constantly harassed by anti-gankers who can do anything they set their mind to, and we have plenty of ideas of what they could do to actually hurt us during these encounters, but we never know what they're going to do, it's all predictions and seeing how they telegraph their actions.

There is a lot to it that you wouldn't understand unless you ran some fleets or participated.


You see a lot of one sided super/titan kills in low/null sec all the time, where one ship is killed by significantly more people, and usually the attackers lose nothing. The only reason these people are content to sit here and bide their time are because stupid people don't properly deal with their own assets and take the proper precautions to be safe, even though there are 100% safe methods available to do said thing in the game. It's player stupidity that you want to buff, not balance.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#273 - 2015-07-22 15:40:27 UTC
Globby wrote:
Ganking being profitable isn't because of CCP, or an ingame mechanic or anything, it's because people haul a lot more than they should. You can see that it's only a drop in the bucket because if hauling became inviable because of ganking you'd see a lot fewer haulers, which isn't happening.

If every hauler hauled properly, ganking would be dead in a month. Proper hauling has a 99% chance of success even in the worst situations. It's funny how broken moving a freighter through highsec is if you do it properly.
I don't want ganking dead. I want it to be complex, challenging and risky enough to be fitting for the average income from the activity. Ideally I'd like to see more in the way of active counters and counter-counters too.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Globby
Never Ignorant Gettin' Goals Accomplished
Gimme Da Loot
#274 - 2015-07-22 15:48:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Globby
Lucas Kell wrote:
Globby wrote:
Ganking being profitable isn't because of CCP, or an ingame mechanic or anything, it's because people haul a lot more than they should. You can see that it's only a drop in the bucket because if hauling became inviable because of ganking you'd see a lot fewer haulers, which isn't happening.

If every hauler hauled properly, ganking would be dead in a month. Proper hauling has a 99% chance of success even in the worst situations. It's funny how broken moving a freighter through highsec is if you do it properly.
I don't want ganking dead. I want it to be complex, challenging and risky enough to be fitting for the average income from the activity. Ideally I'd like to see more in the way of active counters and counter-counters too.

Run a freighter fleet and tell me it's not complex, please. If you haven't done it before and seen the problems with it then you really cant talk to it's many intricacies and difficulties. You see the profit, none of the difficulty going into it, and you just ASSUME that one person is collecting the profit. If you calculate that you made 20 billion (that's pretty high) after a three hour freighter fleet in uedama with twenty DPS (not including the dozen support, bumpers, contract makers) and subtracting the cost of the ships, you'd make roughly 100 mil per hour. That's definitely in line with regular activities, even less than incursions.

there are counters to ganking that exist right now that in their own right can break it and delete it, just people are bad at eve

counters that make it ZERO reward.

I don't know how much riskier you can make it, spending several billion on taloses to kill a big target in jita and still get nothing out of it.
Sarah Flynt
Red Cross Mercenaries
Silent Infinity
#275 - 2015-07-22 15:50:09 UTC
Globby wrote:
You do realize that, hey, those are paid for BY THE BIG FREIGHTERS that came through the previous days, day after day, every day for the last two years, and those that will continue to come through because hey, they refuse to change their fits, or scout, or webber, or fit TANK.


Oh, so it isn't about the cargo choice of the respective freighter pilot after all? It's about the choices of other, completely unrelated pilots. I see.

Globby wrote:
Why are these people running through a system where there are gankers currently logged on and blinking red without a webber, or fitting CARGO EXPANDERS when they have no cargo? It's bad player decision.


Because they have nothing loaded or fitted that anyone could possibly want to steal.

Globby wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
And yet any competent ganker is rolling in isk and can give you a good idea of how much income ganking will generate. What you're doing here is stating that because a gank can yield low that reward is low, but it's not, like exploration it's chance based but averages out. There's a reason miniluv can afford to send out tens of thousands of gankers for events like burn jita, and it's not because they mine a lot.


What don't you get about the fact that the reward is 100% in the hands of the hauler? The haulers CHOOSE to haul with anti-tank through the most dangerous systems in prime time without scouting, using a webber, asking for help, asking for intel, or anything else?


You do realize that you're contradicting yourself in a single post, right? Todays reality is: it's irrelevant how much cargo one carries in a freighter. You'll get ganked anyway these days, so please drop the charade that it makes any difference how much one carries. That used to be the case but those times are long gone.

Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#276 - 2015-07-22 15:56:09 UTC
Globby wrote:
Incursions are definitely not more complex, it's all completely calculated out perfectly.
Lol? And ganks aren't? There's spreadsheets that you literally paste the fit into and it tells you how many people you need. The toughest part of a freighter gank is the bumping, which itself is more monotonous than complex. After that it's fleet warp to target, overheating and grouping on the way, then approach and hit F1. at the very least with incursions you have to actively focus targets and have logi working well to keep people up as and when they need it. And they have billions of bling fit on the line, not a bunch of cheap, disposable ships.

Globby wrote:
CODE. freighter fleets are constantly harassed by anti-gankers
LOL! Anti-gankers! Those guys you make a point of explainign how futile their attemps are at nearly every opportunity? Dude, I've been on plenty of gank fleets, and they genearlly just mean that you'll have additional targets to get a volley or two on when the freighter goes pop.

Globby wrote:
There is a lot to it that you wouldn't understand unless you ran some fleets or participated.
I've run a few a while back and I participate these days. Stop pretending it's more complex than it is :D

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Globby
Never Ignorant Gettin' Goals Accomplished
Gimme Da Loot
#277 - 2015-07-22 15:58:41 UTC
Sarah Flynt wrote:
Oh, so it isn't about the cargo choice of the respective freighter pilot after all? It's about the choices of other, completely unrelated pilots. I see.


If there are no current targets, we will kill completely anti-tanked (ie freighters that fit modules that actually reduce their EHP) for fun between big kills.

Sarah Flynt wrote:
Because they have nothing loaded or fitted that anyone could possibly want to steal.


The misconception is that ganking is for profit. Let me tell you the things that ganking profits buy us:
Ganking ships
Ganking ships
Bumping Macharials
Ganking Ships


Sarah Flynt wrote:
You do realize that you're contradicting yourself in a single post, right? Todays reality is: it's irrelevant how much cargo one carries in a freighter. You'll get ganked anyway these days, so please drop the charade that it makes any difference how much one carries. That used to be the case but those times are long gone.


It's a simple equation, if you're easily ganked then you will die. If you're hard to gank, you wont die. If you're valuable to gank, you will die. If you're hard to gank and valuable, it is a deterrent and you might or might not die depending on the situation.]

Also, normal freighter fleets are not net positive over time. The hunting of big whales is what is profitable, and is done quietly in side systems with the intent to avoid antiganking.
Sarah Flynt
Red Cross Mercenaries
Silent Infinity
#278 - 2015-07-22 15:59:08 UTC
Globby wrote:
I don't know how much riskier you can make it, spending several billion on taloses to kill a big target in jita and still get nothing out of it.

It's simple math and evens out over time, so it's no risk at all for career gankers. Of course you already know that, so why bring it up at all?

Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !

Globby
Never Ignorant Gettin' Goals Accomplished
Gimme Da Loot
#279 - 2015-07-22 16:02:41 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Globby wrote:
Incursions are definitely not more complex, it's all completely calculated out perfectly.
Lol? And ganks aren't? There's spreadsheets that you literally paste the fit into and it tells you how many people you need. The toughest part of a freighter gank is the bumping, which itself is more monotonous than complex. After that it's fleet warp to target, overheating and grouping on the way, then approach and hit F1. at the very least with incursions you have to actively focus targets and have logi working well to keep people up as and when they need it. And they have billions of bling fit on the line, not a bunch of cheap, disposable ships.

Globby wrote:
CODE. freighter fleets are constantly harassed by anti-gankers
LOL! Anti-gankers! Those guys you make a point of explainign how futile their attemps are at nearly every opportunity? Dude, I've been on plenty of gank fleets, and they genearlly just mean that you'll have additional targets to get a volley or two on when the freighter goes pop.

Globby wrote:
There is a lot to it that you wouldn't understand unless you ran some fleets or participated.
I've run a few a while back and I participate these days. Stop pretending it's more complex than it is :D


I don't even know who you are, I've spoken to miniluv and CODE. and no one knows who you are. You're a liar and a fraud.

Bumping for a fleet is hard, you need to time your bumps and the fleet arriving perfectly, because if the freighter is moving too fast (over 150) when the fleet starts to warp, you will have catalysts too far away to apply damage, and then fail a gank.

Anyone who has ran a fleet or participated knows that although killing a freighter isn't all that hard with enough people, it's definitely not profitable if you have one person dedicated to trolling you.
Globby
Never Ignorant Gettin' Goals Accomplished
Gimme Da Loot
#280 - 2015-07-22 16:03:57 UTC
Sarah Flynt wrote:
Globby wrote:
I don't know how much riskier you can make it, spending several billion on taloses to kill a big target in jita and still get nothing out of it.

It's simple math and evens out over time, so it's no risk at all for career gankers. Of course you already know that, so why bring it up at all?


Haha, hello, welcome wreck shooters. People who show up all the time just to shoot wrecks deny us of all our loot. Standard fleets haven't been profitable in weeks, and hyperdunking stops being profitable the second one person shows up to stop me.