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Evernus [2.2 release] - the Ultimate Market Tool

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Satchu Phaidon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#581 - 2015-07-08 20:17:43 UTC
This looks like an awesome program, but I'm having a problem. Prices and orders won't update automatically, and there doesn't seem to be a button I can press to import them reliably.
Pete Butcher
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#582 - 2015-07-08 20:21:57 UTC
Satchu Phaidon wrote:
This looks like an awesome program, but I'm having a problem. Prices and orders won't update automatically, and there doesn't seem to be a button I can press to import them reliably.


Prices are not updated automatically. Are there any problems when importing them?

http://evernus.com - the ultimate multiplatform EVE trade tool + nullsec Alliance Market tool
Satchu Phaidon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#583 - 2015-07-08 21:23:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Satchu Phaidon
Pete Butcher wrote:
Satchu Phaidon wrote:
This looks like an awesome program, but I'm having a problem. Prices and orders won't update automatically, and there doesn't seem to be a button I can press to import them reliably.


Prices are not updated automatically. Are there any problems when importing them?


Oh, okay. What does the 'auto-import' feature do? Is that just for character stuff?

If I 'Import prices from Web' some of them won't reflect the true price on the market, and some of my orders won't update after an API import. The 'old data' warning bar is omnipresent and no amount of importing seems to update things properly.
Pete Butcher
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#584 - 2015-07-09 05:27:35 UTC
Satchu Phaidon wrote:
Oh, okay. What does the 'auto-import' feature do? Is that just for character stuff?


yes

Satchu Phaidon wrote:
If I 'Import prices from Web' some of them won't reflect the true price on the market, and some of my orders won't update after an API import. The 'old data' warning bar is omnipresent and no amount of importing seems to update things properly.


Importing from Web means using CREST. If the data doesn't match, contact CCP FoxFour and report a bug. Evernus just uses what CCP gives back. As for "old data" warning, where exactly are they showing up (which tabs)?

http://evernus.com - the ultimate multiplatform EVE trade tool + nullsec Alliance Market tool
Pete Butcher
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#585 - 2015-07-09 09:07:40 UTC
Due to CCP messing up their data export, the next version with the new items will be delayed until they sort things up.

http://evernus.com - the ultimate multiplatform EVE trade tool + nullsec Alliance Market tool
Elizabet Forgrave
Spectre Fleet Ltd.
Spectre Fleet Alliance
#586 - 2015-07-19 15:19:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Elizabet Forgrave
I've been using this to trade and it's great, thanks for making it. I do however have a small issue and a related suggestion.

The issue is that when there's no competitor price for one of my orders, it says "no price data". This is confusing as it makes it seem like the data didn't import for some reason, but it did, just was ignored as it only contained my order. It also shows me a massive negative price difference. Would it be possible for this to just show as a tick with a price difference of 0, so I know these orders do not need to be updated?

Related to this, when I update my orders I have to wait the hour to update my orders from the API. Would it be possible for an option that when it does the CREST import, it matches my order ID from the data within the program to the order ID returned from CREST and updates my order (in evernus, not in EVE) accordingly?
Pete Butcher
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#587 - 2015-07-19 18:23:01 UTC
Elizabet Forgrave wrote:
I've been using this to trade and it's great, thanks for making it. I do however have a small issue and a related suggestion.

The issue is that when there's no competitor price for one of my orders, it says "no price data". This is confusing as it makes it seem like the data didn't import for some reason, but it did, just was ignored as it only contained my order. It also shows me a massive negative price difference. Would it be possible for this to just show as a tick with a price difference of 0, so I know these orders do not need to be updated?


Actually that's impossible. There's no way to determine the reason for missing data (no import, error, corruption, no competition, manual removal etc.). Therefore the only option is to show no data.

Elizabet Forgrave wrote:
Related to this, when I update my orders I have to wait the hour to update my orders from the API. Would it be possible for an option that when it does the CREST import, it matches my order ID from the data within the program to the order ID returned from CREST and updates my order (in evernus, not in EVE) accordingly?


I need to check if crest returns all required data.

http://evernus.com - the ultimate multiplatform EVE trade tool + nullsec Alliance Market tool
Elizabet Forgrave
Spectre Fleet Ltd.
Spectre Fleet Alliance
#588 - 2015-07-20 07:43:54 UTC
Pete Butcher wrote:
Elizabet Forgrave wrote:
I've been using this to trade and it's great, thanks for making it. I do however have a small issue and a related suggestion.

The issue is that when there's no competitor price for one of my orders, it says "no price data". This is confusing as it makes it seem like the data didn't import for some reason, but it did, just was ignored as it only contained my order. It also shows me a massive negative price difference. Would it be possible for this to just show as a tick with a price difference of 0, so I know these orders do not need to be updated?


Actually that's impossible. There's no way to determine the reason for missing data (no import, error, corruption, no competition, manual removal etc.). Therefore the only option is to show no data.
Surely there is data though, because there's my order. The problem isn't no data when there's actually no data, it's that it's showing no data when there is only my order being returned.

Pete Butcher wrote:
Elizabet Forgrave wrote:
Related to this, when I update my orders I have to wait the hour to update my orders from the API. Would it be possible for an option that when it does the CREST import, it matches my order ID from the data within the program to the order ID returned from CREST and updates my order (in evernus, not in EVE) accordingly?


I need to check if crest returns all required data.
Cool.
Pete Butcher
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#589 - 2015-07-20 09:47:49 UTC
Elizabet Forgrave wrote:
[quote=Pete Butcher]Surely there is data though, because there's my order. The problem isn't no data when there's actually no data, it's that it's showing no data when there is only my order being returned.


Your order doesn't give any info about the cause of lack of other data. Was it the only one? Or wasn't others imported? Or were they manually deleted? Or was there some error? Or did the API broke? There's no way to reliably distinguish the cause. In my opinion trying to guess the cause would lead to more confusion than showing "no data".

http://evernus.com - the ultimate multiplatform EVE trade tool + nullsec Alliance Market tool
Elizabet Forgrave
Spectre Fleet Ltd.
Spectre Fleet Alliance
#590 - 2015-07-20 19:31:17 UTC
Pete Butcher wrote:
Elizabet Forgrave wrote:
[quote=Pete Butcher]Surely there is data though, because there's my order. The problem isn't no data when there's actually no data, it's that it's showing no data when there is only my order being returned.


Your order doesn't give any info about the cause of lack of other data. Was it the only one? Or wasn't others imported? Or were they manually deleted? Or was there some error? Or did the API broke? There's no way to reliably distinguish the cause. In my opinion trying to guess the cause would lead to more confusion than showing "no data".
I'm very confused.

Take an example. I have Item A for sale in System X, which is order number 123. I update prices and crest returns this:

Order num : Item : system : quantity : price
123 . . . . . . . .A . . . .X . . . . . . 10 . . . . . 100,000

Why does evernus then show "Price status: No data". Because data was returned, and evernus did parse it. Even now, the data shows in the "market Orders" section at the bottom of the screen with the import time of the last CREST update. CREST returned the one row with no errors, so evernus should then know that to the best of it's knowledge my order is the best priced order, and that there is in fact data.
Pete Butcher
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#591 - 2015-07-20 19:41:23 UTC
Elizabet Forgrave wrote:
Pete Butcher wrote:
Elizabet Forgrave wrote:
[quote=Pete Butcher]Surely there is data though, because there's my order. The problem isn't no data when there's actually no data, it's that it's showing no data when there is only my order being returned.


Your order doesn't give any info about the cause of lack of other data. Was it the only one? Or wasn't others imported? Or were they manually deleted? Or was there some error? Or did the API broke? There's no way to reliably distinguish the cause. In my opinion trying to guess the cause would lead to more confusion than showing "no data".
I'm very confused.

Take an example. I have Item A for sale in System X, which is order number 123. I update prices and crest returns this:

Order num : Item : system : quantity : price
123 . . . . . . . .A . . . .X . . . . . . 10 . . . . . 100,000

Why does evernus then show "Price status: No data". Because data was returned, and evernus did parse it. Even now, the data shows in the "market Orders" section at the bottom of the screen with the import time of the last CREST update. CREST returned the one row with no errors, so evernus should then know that to the best of it's knowledge my order is the best priced order, and that there is in fact data.


Oh that case is trivial. What I'm talking about is this case: Evernus starts and sees only your order. What should we show to the user? There's no way to know. Your solution works only in one specific case, not in general. We can try to show that there is only one order right after the (successful) import, but it would be pretty confusing on the next run or when someone starts deleting orders.
It's always better to show some information than to lie to the user.

http://evernus.com - the ultimate multiplatform EVE trade tool + nullsec Alliance Market tool
Elizabet Forgrave
Spectre Fleet Ltd.
Spectre Fleet Alliance
#592 - 2015-07-21 06:53:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Elizabet Forgrave
Sorry, but I don't get why it would ever be confusing. If I delete the order, it's not there to have data. If I start up the application, I still have imported data and still have the orders showing in the "market orders" section below. I'd say it's far more confusing now that it's telling me my my order is 100k is below the best on the market when it is in fact the only order on the market, and evernus knows that. The only time it should show "no data" is if you do a crest import and nothing get's returned, or if you've never done a price import (ie, the "market orders section is completely empty).

This is the simplest way I can put it. See the -4 million price difference? That's just not right.
Pete Butcher
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#593 - 2015-07-21 07:26:24 UTC
Elizabet Forgrave wrote:
Sorry, but I don't get why it would ever be confusing. If I delete the order, it's not there to have data. If I start up the application, I still have imported data and still have the orders showing in the "market orders" section below. I'd say it's far more confusing now that it's telling me my my order is 100k is below the best on the market when it is in fact the only order on the market, and evernus knows that. The only time it should show "no data" is if you do a crest import and nothing get's returned, or if you've never done a price import (ie, the "market orders section is completely empty).

This is the simplest way I can put it. See the -4 million price difference? That's just not right.


If you find no data in the database, there is no way to know the reason for it. That's why the "no data" info is there. That's the only information, which can be concluded from such state. It is impossible to track all the possible reasons, since there are both internal and external. In other words - I can give a scenario for every possible solution, which would break it. Therefore, instead of making solutions, which are known to be bad from the start, I decided to tell the truth - there is no data. In this case the "good enough" rule is not good enough, in my opinion.
As for the -4M, that indeed shouldn't be there.

http://evernus.com - the ultimate multiplatform EVE trade tool + nullsec Alliance Market tool
Elizabet Forgrave
Spectre Fleet Ltd.
Spectre Fleet Alliance
#594 - 2015-07-21 14:11:32 UTC
But there is data in the database. That's why it shows up at the bottom of that screenshot. If there were no data, that box would be empty (like when you import an order but no prices). It's certainly not telling the truth right now, as it's saying there's no data then displaying me the CREST data that it says doesn't exist at the bottom.
Pete Butcher
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#595 - 2015-07-21 14:15:59 UTC
Elizabet Forgrave wrote:
But there is data in the database. That's why it shows up at the bottom of that screenshot. If there were no data, that box would be empty (like when you import an order but no prices). It's certainly not telling the truth right now, as it's saying there's no data then displaying me the CREST data that it says doesn't exist at the bottom.


There's a difference between your orders and competition. Your order being there doesn't suggest anything about why competitor's orders are not.

http://evernus.com - the ultimate multiplatform EVE trade tool + nullsec Alliance Market tool
Elizabet Forgrave
Spectre Fleet Ltd.
Spectre Fleet Alliance
#596 - 2015-07-21 18:19:34 UTC
Pete Butcher wrote:
Elizabet Forgrave wrote:
But there is data in the database. That's why it shows up at the bottom of that screenshot. If there were no data, that box would be empty (like when you import an order but no prices). It's certainly not telling the truth right now, as it's saying there's no data then displaying me the CREST data that it says doesn't exist at the bottom.


There's a difference between your orders and competition. Your order being there doesn't suggest anything about why competitor's orders are not.
But surely that box at the bottom is purely CREST data, right? So if my order is there and no other order is, then it must be because there are no other orders on the market.
Pete Butcher
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#597 - 2015-07-21 18:37:41 UTC
Elizabet Forgrave wrote:
Pete Butcher wrote:
Elizabet Forgrave wrote:
But there is data in the database. That's why it shows up at the bottom of that screenshot. If there were no data, that box would be empty (like when you import an order but no prices). It's certainly not telling the truth right now, as it's saying there's no data then displaying me the CREST data that it says doesn't exist at the bottom.


There's a difference between your orders and competition. Your order being there doesn't suggest anything about why competitor's orders are not.
But surely that box at the bottom is purely CREST data, right? So if my order is there and no other order is, then it must be because there are no other orders on the market.


Nope, your orders come from XML API, not CREST.

http://evernus.com - the ultimate multiplatform EVE trade tool + nullsec Alliance Market tool
Elizabet Forgrave
Spectre Fleet Ltd.
Spectre Fleet Alliance
#598 - 2015-07-22 07:06:17 UTC
Pete Butcher wrote:
Elizabet Forgrave wrote:
Pete Butcher wrote:
Elizabet Forgrave wrote:
But there is data in the database. That's why it shows up at the bottom of that screenshot. If there were no data, that box would be empty (like when you import an order but no prices). It's certainly not telling the truth right now, as it's saying there's no data then displaying me the CREST data that it says doesn't exist at the bottom.
There's a difference between your orders and competition. Your order being there doesn't suggest anything about why competitor's orders are not.
But surely that box at the bottom is purely CREST data, right? So if my order is there and no other order is, then it must be because there are no other orders on the market.
Nope, your orders come from XML API, not CREST.
Right, my orders at the top do, but at the bottom, in that "market orders" tab. That's CREST. That's why nothing appears there when I import my orders and why when you click the import prices button, the rows including my own appear there with the "imported" column set to the time and date it fetched them from CREST. Seriously, go check. I promise you that's how it's working.
Pete Butcher
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#599 - 2015-07-22 08:01:28 UTC
Elizabet Forgrave wrote:
Pete Butcher wrote:
Elizabet Forgrave wrote:
Pete Butcher wrote:
Elizabet Forgrave wrote:
But there is data in the database. That's why it shows up at the bottom of that screenshot. If there were no data, that box would be empty (like when you import an order but no prices). It's certainly not telling the truth right now, as it's saying there's no data then displaying me the CREST data that it says doesn't exist at the bottom.
There's a difference between your orders and competition. Your order being there doesn't suggest anything about why competitor's orders are not.
But surely that box at the bottom is purely CREST data, right? So if my order is there and no other order is, then it must be because there are no other orders on the market.
Nope, your orders come from XML API, not CREST.
Right, my orders at the top do, but at the bottom, in that "market orders" tab. That's CREST. That's why nothing appears there when I import my orders and why when you click the import prices button, the rows including my own appear there with the "imported" column set to the time and date it fetched them from CREST. Seriously, go check. I promise you that's how it's working.


Ok, now I know what you meant. Yes, that can be imported via crest, but it is still your order, so it's not taken into account while determining competitor's price => there is no competitor price data.

http://evernus.com - the ultimate multiplatform EVE trade tool + nullsec Alliance Market tool
Elizabet Forgrave
Spectre Fleet Ltd.
Spectre Fleet Alliance
#600 - 2015-07-22 09:26:26 UTC
Pete Butcher wrote:
Ok, now I know what you meant. Yes, that can be imported via crest, but it is still your order, so it's not taken into account while determining competitor's price => there is no competitor price data.
Ok cool, we're there. So can that just say "No competition" with a green tick instead of "No price data" with a yellow exclamation mark? As it stands now it's confusing as it's put across as if it's negative, when it's a good thing as it means your order is being used.