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Is power creep really a bad thing?
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Renegade Heart
Doomheim
#21 - 2015-07-18 10:37:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Renegade Heart
Benny Ohu wrote:
Renegade Heart wrote:
Indeed. However, it is a position, which you can argue against being correct, if you could be bothered.

the thread's about 'convince me this idea is better than this idea'. it can't be done without detailing the advantages of the second idea

the op says 'power creep is necessary' twice and asks to be convinced otherwise. it's not fair to expect someone to argue like that when they don't know what the other idea is


I think it is fair. I've enjoyed the opportunity presented by OP for me to chime in with some rambling nonsense here too. Do you have anything constructive to say though?

[edit] In case I've completely missed the point of the thread, I just want to say that I like drakes that much, I had to chime in because of the idea of someone thinking "BCs are in a bad place". Drakes are really cool.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2015-07-18 10:49:29 UTC
Renegade Heart wrote:
Do you have anything constructive to say though?

i have been sincere and polite in expressing concern to the op

your posts are hostile
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#23 - 2015-07-18 10:52:15 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Ship balance is impeded by the PvE meta. Webvan I usually appreciate your posts but today, you have been drinking.
They have tooled with it some, such as giving rats better AI and EWAR usage etc. Like I said, difficulty is balancing in an environment with pve/pvp, having both that is.

It's more of an AI issue as far as pve, though still could never get close to human ability which is what usually brings me or us to games with or about pvp. That's also a design issue, to what CCP is more compelled to lean towards when they start dropping weight onto the balances; more onto pve or onto pvp, yes it doesn't always translate to equal balance... though it could. Never seen it though, not optimal and a never ending maze.

But as was said in an earlier post I agree with, power creep only pushes the problem forward etc. Personally I don't think people have problems with nerfs if it's obvious something needs a nerf. The rest thrive for getting into the most OP ship as it happens and then get all upset when it finally gets balanced or nerfed as it should.

Wat? I drink every night Bear

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Renegade Heart
Doomheim
#24 - 2015-07-18 10:54:23 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Renegade Heart wrote:
Do you have anything constructive to say though?

i have been sincere and polite in expressing concern to the op

your posts are hostile


In other words, you don't like where I pointed out where you might have been wrong. I think I was sincere and polite enough to you, but if you feel this way, it's better I don't waste my time with this anymore.

Enjoy the thread dude.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2015-07-18 10:58:55 UTC
Renegade Heart wrote:
In other words, you don't like where I pointed out where you might have been wrong.

no, that's not what i said
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2015-07-18 11:02:06 UTC
Stop it, you children. Make your own thread, if you want to argue.

Now go clean up your rooms!

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Renegade Heart
Doomheim
#27 - 2015-07-18 11:02:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Renegade Heart
Benny Ohu wrote:
Renegade Heart wrote:
In other words, you don't like where I pointed out where you might have been wrong.

no, that's not what i said


Ok sorry. Ignore me. It's cool. I have nothing further to add!

Apart from that drakes are the best. Everyone should learn to love the awesome ship that is the drake.
Kestral Anneto
State War Academy
Caldari State
#28 - 2015-07-18 11:17:19 UTC
There has been to much power creep as it is, the entire thing needs reoworked if you ask me.

A frig should get owned by a destroyer,
a destroyer should get owned by a cruiser,
a cruiser should get owned by a battlecruiser
and a battlecruiser should get owned by a Battleship.

(capitals are somethign else entirely.)

the only time this should not happen is when the smaller hulls have numbers on there side.

T2 ships should be more specialised, so they are not the "I win" that they are now.

Because of CCP and their infinite wisdom, we now have a situation where cruisers are the go to hull class for fleets, big or small. This should not happen, Battleships should be the backbone of any fleet, with a mixture of other hull classes being mixed in to make a decent fleet comp, not "max tengu's" or "max cerbs".

There is no point even talking about this, however, as we all know that CCP will not move away from their crusade to dumb down EvE and keep it Cruisers Online. Sure, they may say that they are going to do X, Y or Z, but they wont do what is needed.
Commander Spurty
#29 - 2015-07-18 11:30:41 UTC
Blobs take all your logic and poo all over it.

You name the hull, I'll name the blob that will counter it.

I'd also leave 'ISK EFFICIENCY' off the table. Blobs are immune to that sort of thinking.

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2015-07-18 11:33:10 UTC
Kestral Anneto wrote:
There has been to much power creep as it is, the entire thing needs reoworked if you ask me.

A frig should get owned by a destroyer,
a destroyer should get owned by a cruiser,
a cruiser should get owned by a battlecruiser
and a battlecruiser should get owned by a Battleship.

Yeah, clearly you know all about balance!
Did you EVER actually shoot anyone?

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2015-07-18 11:42:31 UTC
Power creep in the most basic of styles where everything just gets stronger to keep up with the strongest or any new content is always better than current, that is bad.

Simply buffing a ship because it is outclassed from things it is supposed to outclass I would not define as power creep, rather as just balance.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Jeanne Tivianne
#32 - 2015-07-18 12:14:07 UTC
This thread is too smart for me, I don't know jack about balance or power creep. I cloak and sometimes I uncloak to shoot things.







Anyway, just posting to say it's been a good read so far, even if I don't really understand the way the words are arranged or the point they are supposed to make.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2015-07-18 12:22:35 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
The answer is, it depends.

If the current high powered T3D & cruiser sized hulls is viewed as intended/desirable then a certain amount of creep MUST occur, else the "desired" meta of smaller hulls has to be nerfed which by definition would be undesirable.

If the current crusier sized and under ship power levels are not intended/desired then....no creep is needed and a nerf is required.


Either way, it all pivots around the small ship meta and their relative power next to intentions.
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
#34 - 2015-07-18 12:49:39 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
The ship meta needs to be fixed and in order to fix it, power creep is a necessary evil.
BCs are in a bad place, BSes are in a place where BCs should be.
CCP and the playerbase are so strongly against the idea of allowing power to flow as it should.

I've made this thread because I feel power creep is currently necessary in order to fix ship meta, I want to hear arguments against the idea of power creep.


BC have no role. There used to be a thing called anti-support and anti-anti-support which BC hulls were good for. Then every doctrine became cruisers zooming around at 1000 m/s which obviously BC have no use in. Maybe if this meta was fixed it would then bring back BC, rather than just buffing every hull to OP levels one after another all the time.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#35 - 2015-07-18 13:16:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Riot Girl wrote:
... Is power creep really a bad thing? ...
Yes.

In your original post you are not talking about power creep.
The general design where battleship beat battle cruiser which beat cruiser et cetera and then multiple frigates could beat battleships, meaning they should fly with support, was sound.
Generally, battlecruisers are not too bad, the boost to warp speed seems to have slipped by unnoticed.
Command ships are a very long training time now.
There are no real T2 battlecruisers and battleships in the same way as cruisers (which would have been a better idea than T3 destroyers), so remember you are comparing T1 ships to T2 and T3.

That a T3 cruiser can be more powerful than a battleship, which is two classes above it or where T3Ds are only really countered by other T3Ds; THAT is power creep and that is broken.

(... for those who haven't seen it else where and will ask "but what do you expect of T3s?" The answer is that they should be about utility rather than power).

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Omega Capsuleer
Order of Cut-Throats
#36 - 2015-07-18 13:31:22 UTC
Low end power creep is not bad.

High end power creep is.

Just my opinion.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2015-07-18 13:42:53 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
... Is power creep really a bad thing? ...
Yes.

In your original post you are not talking about power creep.
The general design where battleship beat battle cruiser which beat cruiser et cetera and then multiple frigates could beat battleships, meaning they should fly with support, was sound.
Generally, battlecruisers are not too bad, the boost to warp speed seems to have slipped by unnoticed.
Command ships are a very long training time now.
There are no real T2 battlecruisers and battleships in the same way as cruisers (which would have been a better idea than T3 destroyers), so remember you are comparing T1 ships to T2 and T3.

That a T3 cruiser can be more powerful than a battleship, which is two classes above it or where T3Ds are only really countered by other T3Ds; THAT is power creep and that is broken.

(... for those who haven't seen it else where and will ask "but what do you expect of T3s?" The answer is that they should be about utility rather than power).

This reminds me of that pancake ship, I forgot the name. There was a frigate, I think a cruiser and a battleship. It feels like CCP is baiting idiots cash-cows with feelings of power and superiority.

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Jenshae Chiroptera
#38 - 2015-07-18 14:11:41 UTC
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
... This reminds me of that pancake ship, I forgot the name. There was a frigate, I think a cruiser and a battleship. It feels like CCP is baiting idiots cash-cows with feelings of power and superiority.
Armour Barghest fit to long range tackle is rather insane.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2015-07-18 16:19:56 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
... This reminds me of that pancake ship, I forgot the name. There was a frigate, I think a cruiser and a battleship. It feels like CCP is baiting idiots cash-cows with feelings of power and superiority.
Armour Barghest fit to long range tackle is rather insane.

Yeah that one and the other tofu.

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Minister of Death
Doomheim
#40 - 2015-07-18 21:02:17 UTC
T3BS!!! T3DS is so damn fun, it makes sense that T3BS would be "funner" yet.
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