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Industry - Allow Invention off BPOs or give us a 4 Dumbies icon
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Amarisen Gream
The.Kin.of.Jupiter
#1 - 2015-07-13 07:28:43 UTC
Hello,

So I am in the process of developing skills on a number of characters to start developing invention items...

Seeing as it is new to me - I don't have the T1 BPOs memorized on which ones can be invented on.

I know that a lot of BPOs - you don't have to worry about as there are 1:1 kind of thing.

My confusion comes when looking at the industrial window and having bought and researched a lot of the ammo BPOs, knowing which ones have T2 inventions.

***I know allowing Invention right from the BPO is probably the worst thing ever
***So would it be possible to add some color icon to those BPOs (Maybe color the invention icon green or something) in the industrial window - so it makes it an easier at a glance to know which BPOs need to be copied to make our T2 BPCs.


Thank you!

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs
Adriana Nolen
Sama Guild
#2 - 2015-07-13 08:30:29 UTC
Being able to see the invention requirements & output product from the bpo would nice.
Nyalnara
Marauder Initiative
#3 - 2015-07-13 11:44:20 UTC
Show info on T2 item. Look up "Variations" tab. T1 item is there. Information is readily available, you're just too lazy to search for it.

-1 from me.

French half-noob.

Non, je ne suis pas gentil.
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#4 - 2015-07-13 12:10:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Rawketsled
Rule of thumb for what can be invented:

Quote:
If it is a module, ship, or drone, and has a BPO, it can be invented.


The exceptions:


  • T1 logistics frigates; Bantam, Navitas, Burst, Inquisitor.
  • Assault Battle Cruisers; Talos, Tornado, Oracle, Naga.
  • T1 battleships; Rohk, Abaddon, Maelstrom, Hyperion.
  • Command Processors.
  • Drones in the Combat Utility, Electronic Warfare, and Salvage categories.
  • Cynosural Field Generators (both kinds).
  • Capital-sized weapons.


Ammunition is something you will want to memorise. There's always a market for it. Some T2 items vary in profitability, so only get into that once you're confident in your ability.

I'll explain ammunition out a bit so it'll help you remember.

Each T2 gun turret has two T2 ammunitions. One with high damage, and one with better application.

Each T2 missile launcher has eight. Two for each damage type, divided into high damage, and better application.

Faction specific stuff.

Minmatar:

  • T2 Projectile ammunition is always based on Explosion damage, T1 ammo that doesn't do lots of explosion damage won't invent into T2.
  • Atomic ammunition: (Nuclear, and Depleted Uranium) are for autocannons.
  • Heavy metal ammunition (Carbonized Lead, and Titanium Sabot) are for artillery.
  • If it has a high-tech name, it doesn't invent.


Amarr:

  • Letters at the end of the alphabet (Ultraviolet and Xray) invent into pulse laser crystals.
  • Radio (dark red) and Multifrequency (white) invent into beam laser crystals.
  • Shades of yellow and orange won't invent.


Gallente:

  • The T1 hybrid ammo typically has two bonuses: range, and cap use.
  • The T1 ammo that do not, both turn into T2 blaster ammo.
  • Two of the glowing T1 hybrid ammunition types (there's three in total) invent into T2 railgun ammo.


Caldari:

  • Is it a missile? There's two T2 versions of it.
  • The only exception being the useless Defender Missiles, and equally useless Auto-Targeting Missiles.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2015-07-13 14:11:57 UTC
-1 from me, invention is about making the effort and the new industry UI simplifies this too.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#6 - 2015-07-13 14:37:38 UTC
For the love of Granola folks....

The challenge in the game should not be fighting the UI.

What about putting the info in an easy to see place within the client is so game breaking? Far too many systems in EVE rely on obscure and arcane knowledge. The process of inventing should be clear- you want challenge then make it fail more often or require rare ingredients, not be harder to fracking figure out how to do it in the first place.
Nyalnara
Marauder Initiative
#7 - 2015-07-13 14:58:37 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
The process of inventing should be clear


How is it NOT clear? Pick T2 item, show info, look what's the T1 variant. It can't get simpler.

French half-noob.

Non, je ne suis pas gentil.
Amarisen Gream
The.Kin.of.Jupiter
#8 - 2015-07-13 16:58:00 UTC
Nyalnara wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
The process of inventing should be clear


How is it NOT clear? Pick T2 item, show info, look what's the T1 variant. It can't get simpler.



Your method works great - but it still has extra steps.
Most T1 to T2 is pretty straight forward (at least for ships - as you can show info or ISIS)

Clearifing the UI, removing those extra steps -outside the industrial UI- should be a goal of any developer.
The Show Info windows have tons of information, which is great! Yet, I should have to use it each time I wanna do T2 work.

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs
Amarisen Gream
The.Kin.of.Jupiter
#9 - 2015-07-13 16:59:06 UTC
Rawketsled wrote:
Rule of thumb for what can be invented:

Quote:
If it is a module, ship, or drone, and has a BPO, it can be invented.


The exceptions:


  • T1 logistics frigates; Bantam, Navitas, Burst, Inquisitor.
  • Assault Battle Cruisers; Talos, Tornado, Oracle, Naga.
  • T1 battleships; Rohk, Abaddon, Maelstrom, Hyperion.
  • Command Processors.
  • Drones in the Combat Utility, Electronic Warfare, and Salvage categories.
  • Cynosural Field Generators (both kinds).
  • Capital-sized weapons.


Ammunition is something you will want to memorise. There's always a market for it. Some T2 items vary in profitability, so only get into that once you're confident in your ability.

I'll explain ammunition out a bit so it'll help you remember.

Each T2 gun turret has two T2 ammunitions. One with high damage, and one with better application.

Each T2 missile launcher has eight. Two for each damage type, divided into high damage, and better application.

Faction specific stuff.

Minmatar:

  • T2 Projectile ammunition is always based on Explosion damage, T1 ammo that doesn't do lots of explosion damage won't invent into T2.
  • Atomic ammunition: (Nuclear, and Depleted Uranium) are for autocannons.
  • Heavy metal ammunition (Carbonized Lead, and Titanium Sabot) are for artillery.
  • If it has a high-tech name, it doesn't invent.


Amarr:

  • Letters at the end of the alphabet (Ultraviolet and Xray) invent into pulse laser crystals.
  • Radio (dark red) and Multifrequency (white) invent into beam laser crystals.
  • Shades of yellow and orange won't invent.


Gallente:

  • The T1 hybrid ammo typically has two bonuses: range, and cap use.
  • The T1 ammo that do not, both turn into T2 blaster ammo.
  • Two of the glowing T1 hybrid ammunition types (there's three in total) invent into T2 railgun ammo.


Caldari:

  • Is it a missile? There's two T2 versions of it.
  • The only exception being the useless Defender Missiles, and equally useless Auto-Targeting Missiles.



Thank you,
Great run down of info. I will make a note of it all.

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#10 - 2015-07-13 17:41:46 UTC
Load the BPO in the industry window and select copy.

In the outcome window, right click on the BPC icon and select show info

The info window for the BPC will show you if an invention is possible plus any required skills and materials.

Not very intuitive - but what's a game without a few puzzles to figure out!
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2015-07-13 18:33:09 UTC
Nyalnara wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
The process of inventing should be clear


How is it NOT clear? Pick T2 item, show info, look what's the T1 variant. It can't get simpler.


Exactly this, took about 3 seconds to find this out in the UI as a test.
Kyeudo Van'mynai
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2015-07-13 19:48:04 UTC
Do Little wrote:

Not very intuitive - but what's a game without a few puzzles to figure out!


Less confusing? If a game is not a puzzle game, finding the information you need to play shouldn't be hard.
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#13 - 2015-07-13 20:21:37 UTC
look at the output of the BPO - show variations, if it's T2 or meta-named - you can invent it from the T1 BPC

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#14 - 2015-07-13 21:53:43 UTC  |  Edited by: McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The information being available somewhere isn't the point. You're still navigating to a separate window and clicking around to reveal the information. It's not available at a glance as it is for the rest of the blueprint information.

Every bit of information in the game cannot be presented at once obviously, but when you open the right window the relevant bits should be bundled together. That's just basic organization of information. The blueprint window provides all the information about the blueprint, at a glance, except invention. That's an inconsistency. Inconsistent UIs are bad UIs.

+1

There are all our dominion

Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
Nyalnara
Marauder Initiative
#15 - 2015-07-14 00:39:35 UTC
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:
Every bit of information in the game cannot be presented at once obviously, but when you open the right window the relevant bits should be bundled together. That's just basic organization of information. The blueprint window provides all the information about the blueprint, at a glance, except invention. That's an inconsistency. Inconsistent UIs are bad UIs.



If the following part:
Nyalnara wrote:
How is it NOT clear? Pick T2 item, show info, look what's the T1 variant. It can't get simpler.

is not obvious enough, you can also show info on your BPO, go to industry tab, choose the BPC in the copy sub-menu, show info again, and look at the invention in the industry tab again. The UI is NOT inconsistent, because invention is done on BPCs, not on BPOs. Thus why it's logical for the information to NOT BE in the BPOs show info, but on BPCs. Informations being displayed into relevant places, all that stuf, yadda-yadda.

But if you fail to understand basic logic, or are just too lazy to click twice, maybe you shouldn't play Eve. Maybe you should let non-lazy people earn all those ISKs through invention...

French half-noob.

Non, je ne suis pas gentil.
Amarisen Gream
The.Kin.of.Jupiter
#16 - 2015-07-14 08:51:31 UTC
So - as I am pretty good at starting decent fire discussions, I have gleaned 2 things.

1: if you don't like the 10 step program for invention - your lazy

2: same as above.

Sill the topic of this is making it cleaner at a glance for players to know what BPOs can be copied and invented on with out having to click 2-10 levels deep into a BP's show info tab.

This is in no-way a "we need this now" but is something that can be looked at.
The current "not-lazy" method can be another means by which the NPE is harmed as it isn't as clear as some other things in this game - like warping from object to object :)

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs
Nyalnara
Marauder Initiative
#17 - 2015-07-14 09:37:34 UTC
Amarisen Gream wrote:
1: if you don't like the 10 step program for invention - your lazy

Copy, Invent, (eventually) Produce, that's just 2 to 3 steps and it's not that hard.

Amarisen Gream wrote:
The current "not-lazy" method can be another means by which the NPE is harmed as it isn't as clear as some other things in this game - like warping from object to object :)

I fail to understand how an activity which requires hundred of millions to get started should be considered accessible to new players. (Even T1 production need a big starter investment, even if not as big as T2.) And, as far as i recall, most of the skills required for invention are locked for trial players, which is a good indication that this activity is not intended for those new players.

French half-noob.

Non, je ne suis pas gentil.
Eric de'Locke
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2015-07-14 09:40:47 UTC
The thing I like about EVE is that it doesn't hold your hand and lead you by the nose. If you really are serious about an aspect of the game, finding the right information is a Google search away. Hell, EVE Uni's website and wiki provides tons of information regarding pretty much anything.

Any serious industrialist should have these 2 applications installed: EVEMon and EVE IPH. There are a host of other Market related applications, but none that I've spent a lot of time with.

Hope this helps.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#19 - 2015-07-14 09:53:34 UTC
Nyalnara wrote:

And, as far as i recall, most of the skills required for invention are locked for trial players, which is a good indication that this activity is not intended for those new players.


It is not intended for trial players, not new players. New players can do invention, so long as they pay a subscription. The intent is not to discriminate against new players, but against those who have not subscribed. It mitigates a potential form of trial account abuse.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Raphendyr Nardieu
Avanto
Arctic Light
#20 - 2015-07-14 12:20:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Raphendyr Nardieu
I would just want to see button/tab/something that is "invented from". This would give me link to t1 bpc from t2 bpc. Currently my workflow is t2 bpc > t2 product > t1 version > t1 bpo > t1 bpc.
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