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Was I acting prudently?
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Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#21 - 2015-07-09 02:22:50 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
The Larold wrote:
Sobaan Tali wrote:
You were careful. A little more than most are, though many are not nearly as cautious as they ought to be, so I'd say you were appropriately prudent. That sort of range that close to a Marauder, given their bloated probe size, means you were likely what someone was scanning. Now, whether your were in any real appreciable danger is anyone's guess. Your "budy" might just have been looking for an unattended MTU for some free loot, since people like to pick them off when you leave them out for too long. He may have been someone looking to turn your Golem into his next mark. You chose to take matters into your own hands sooner than many rather than leave that up to chance. Complacency kills, and you've proven to be a more difficult target of opportunity than most of us here.

tl:dr

You did fine. Good on you.


[I've got a quick question at the end]

Thanks - I appreciate feedback like this! While I'm a relatively high SP player, I'm still a total carebear. I assumed that, most likely, it was someone looking to bait me into doing something stupid. But in case it was one or more genuinely hostile players, I have virtually zero PvP experience and do not trust my knowledge or judgement.

I think my effective HP is something like 50+k and I have been 1-shotting NPC dessies, cruisers, and I think BCs. (They are the mid-sized red icon with the underline, correct?) But I read a blog where some guy got ganked by 16 Catalysts, and that just does not sound like something my Golem could keep up with. Sure, I might pop 3 or 4, but 16? Even in bastion mode...

I'm happy doing L4 missions in high-sec for now, and if my ISK/hour rate takes a little hit now and then, I'm totally fine with it.

In a busy mission hub system, what's a reasonable frequency to be scanning for probes? I over-estimated my diligence; I've only been checking about once every 30-60 seconds.


Local tank is the best tank. Learn to pay attention to local chat /player list. Flashy yellow suspects in local generally indicates can flippers, mission baiters, or station games - some sort of mischief but not an immediate threat if you don't see them. The more active local is the more often you should check D-scan. Keep scan at max range; if you see combat probes or multiple gank ships like catalysts or attack battlecruisers, bring scan range down incrementally. Gank ships on 1 AU means it's time to be going; probes on 1 AU means you are probably going to be visited by a mission baiter. Gallente assault frigates and their T1 variant the Incursus are popular with baiters. Flashy red criminals in local will be gankers; if there's only 1-2 they're probably doing untanked miners and T1 industrials and thus not a threat. More than 2-3 reds is a serious concern and you may wish to dock up, or go to a safe. Instant docks/undocks are a must; keep all tank/resist mods active at all times - not only when in the mission but when docking/undocking and aligning off stargates. Watch for tears/smack talk in local as this is another free intel source. If someone's crying about getting ganked ask them what happened. Mining barges 'sploding aren't your problem. You can even d-scan for wrecks and watch for them off gates/stations.

Learn to glean info from local and D-scan and put that together to keep an accurate picture of what's going on around you. I frequently pull up the browser while I'm missioning and run killboard searches on suspect/criminal players in local, to see exactly what sort of bad guy they are.


Flashy reds in local, in hisec, have already ganked their target and are in pods. No threat.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#22 - 2015-07-09 08:12:23 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Flashy reds in local, in hisec, have already ganked their target and are in pods. No threat.

for the next few minutes (up to 15) until their timer runs out and they look for a new target.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2015-07-09 18:45:04 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
Flashy reds in local, in hisec, have already ganked their target and are in pods. No threat.

for the next few minutes (up to 15) until their timer runs out and they look for a new target.


-10 characters (aka dedicated gankalts) are always criminal flagged are they not? Or anything below -5?

Regardless as he says they will have their scout alt looking for new targets while they wait on the timer. Whether or not they represent a threat to a mission battleship is a function of their numbers.
Tarojan
Tarojan Corporation
#24 - 2015-07-09 21:22:59 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
Flashy reds in local, in hisec, have already ganked their target and are in pods. No threat.

for the next few minutes (up to 15) until their timer runs out and they look for a new target.


-10 characters (aka dedicated gankalts) are always criminal flagged are they not? Or anything below -5?

Regardless as he says they will have their scout alt looking for new targets while they wait on the timer. Whether or not they represent a threat to a mission battleship is a function of their numbers.



No not really. the - 10 gankers are being chased around by faction police and have to keep moving, but thats very different to acitivating concord against you. As soon as you go all red and flashy and concord appear your done playing for 15 mins. They web you scram you, cant warp and then after they blow up your ship they blow up any other ship you board/undock for the next 15 mins.

"Whether or not they represent a threat to a mission battleship is a function of their numbers" is also a myth in the sense that you can possibly know this as their intended target. The reality is many gankers are solo operaters and as such rely on the mission runner not understanding aggression mechanics, but the organised groups can bring everything they need to bring. You can make some assumptions like if you see 30 red flashies in local and smack talk about the pimped mara they just took down that it might be a good idea to go to another hub tonight, but as a general principle of flying safe dont assume that just 1-2 gankers means your safe.

Best safe practice will always be to assume that the stranger using the accel gates into your mission pocket is going to point and scram you while the gank fleet warps in and you should get the hell outta there.

Will gank for food
GordonO
BURN EDEN
#25 - 2015-07-09 23:47:11 UTC
combat probes?? either way, I would put your paranoia at 10

... What next ??
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2015-07-10 20:40:09 UTC
Tarojan wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
Flashy reds in local, in hisec, have already ganked their target and are in pods. No threat.

for the next few minutes (up to 15) until their timer runs out and they look for a new target.


-10 characters (aka dedicated gankalts) are always criminal flagged are they not? Or anything below -5?

Regardless as he says they will have their scout alt looking for new targets while they wait on the timer. Whether or not they represent a threat to a mission battleship is a function of their numbers.



No not really. the - 10 gankers are being chased around by faction police and have to keep moving, but thats very different to acitivating concord against you. As soon as you go all red and flashy and concord appear your done playing for 15 mins. They web you scram you, cant warp and then after they blow up your ship they blow up any other ship you board/undock for the next 15 mins.

"Whether or not they represent a threat to a mission battleship is a function of their numbers" is also a myth in the sense that you can possibly know this as their intended target. The reality is many gankers are solo operaters and as such rely on the mission runner not understanding aggression mechanics, but the organised groups can bring everything they need to bring. You can make some assumptions like if you see 30 red flashies in local and smack talk about the pimped mara they just took down that it might be a good idea to go to another hub tonight, but as a general principle of flying safe dont assume that just 1-2 gankers means your safe.

Best safe practice will always be to assume that the stranger using the accel gates into your mission pocket is going to point and scram you while the gank fleet warps in and you should get the hell outta there.


Most mission ships, even with their active rep fits, have pretty high EHP. 1-2 characters is not enough for a gank. You could MAYBE get away with using 2-3 Talos. I'm talking about suicide ganking. Suspect baiting ninja salvagers who exploit ignorance of aggression mechanics are only a threat if you fire on them.

Also -10 players do get engaged by CONCORD the moment they enter system in anything not a pod. Many a pirate has lost his expensive bling boat by accidentally jumping into highsec. I'm pretty sure -5 and below gets CONCORDOKKEN in any highsec system. However gankers are able to exploit the small window of opportunity before CONCORD lands on grid to blap their target.

1-2 gankers in system means they are doing untanked barges, T1 industrials, shuttles, pods - soft targets of opportunity. You will occasionally see highsec legal gankers which is why you watch dscan for multiples of the common gank ships. (Catalysts, Thrashers, Brutix, Talos, and Tornados) And always have resist mods active whenever you are in transit.

A major ganking operation targeting mission ships tends to be fairly well advertised in local.
Paranoid Loyd
#27 - 2015-07-10 20:53:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Also -10 players do get engaged by CONCORD the moment they enter system in anything not a pod.
This is incorrect, there is a very large difference between the faction police and Concord. Faction Police attack you not Concord.

Further, there is a scale of when the faction police will engage:

Players with -2.0 or worse will be attacked in 1.0 systems
Players with -2.5 or worse will be attacked in 0.9 systems
Players with -3.0 or worse will be attacked in 0.8 systems
Players with -3.5 or worse will be attacked in 0.7 systems
Players with -4.0 or worse will be attacked in 0.6 systems
Players with -4.5 or worse will be attacked in 0.5 systems

The time they take to engage as well as their strength also scales with system sec rating.

Concord only attacks if you do something to criminally flag yourself.

The only exception is if you are in Concord Sov space.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#28 - 2015-07-10 21:11:48 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Also -10 players do get engaged by CONCORD the moment they enter system in anything not a pod.
This is incorrect, there is a very large difference between the faction police and Concord. Faction Police attack you not Concord.

Further, there is a scale of when the faction police will engage:

Players with -2.0 or worse will be attacked in 1.0 systems
Players with -2.5 or worse will be attacked in 0.9 systems
Players with -3.0 or worse will be attacked in 0.8 systems
Players with -3.5 or worse will be attacked in 0.7 systems
Players with -4.0 or worse will be attacked in 0.6 systems
Players with -4.5 or worse will be attacked in 0.5 systems

The time they take to engage as well as their strength also scales with system sec rating.

Concord only attacks if you do something to criminally flag yourself.

The only exception is if you are in Concord Sov space.


And faction police are more of an annoyance than an actual threat. They can easily be tanked.
Tarojan
Tarojan Corporation
#29 - 2015-07-10 21:16:07 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Also -10 players do get engaged by CONCORD the moment they enter system in anything not a pod.
This is incorrect, there is a very large difference between the faction police and Concord. Faction Police attack you not Concord.

Further, there is a scale of when the faction police will engage:

Players with -2.0 or worse will be attacked in 1.0 systems
Players with -2.5 or worse will be attacked in 0.9 systems
Players with -3.0 or worse will be attacked in 0.8 systems
Players with -3.5 or worse will be attacked in 0.7 systems
Players with -4.0 or worse will be attacked in 0.6 systems
Players with -4.5 or worse will be attacked in 0.5 systems

The time they take to engage as well as their strength also scales with system sec rating.

Concord only attacks if you do something to criminally flag yourself.

The only exception is if you are in Concord Sov space.


And faction police are more of an annoyance than an actual threat. They can easily be tanked.

Not in a tech1 cata P

Will gank for food
Paranoid Loyd
#30 - 2015-07-10 21:17:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Estella Osoka wrote:
And faction police are more of an annoyance than an actual threat. They can easily be tanked.
Hmm, not sure about that, haven't tested it but it was my understanding that Fac Po is quite strong, it's Faction Navies (yes another subset of NPCs) are the ones that are easy to tank. They attack those that have poor faction standings and are participating in FW.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#31 - 2015-07-11 04:41:02 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
And faction police are more of an annoyance than an actual threat. They can easily be tanked.
Hmm, not sure about that, haven't tested it but it was my understanding that Fac Po is quite strong, it's Faction Navies (yes another subset of NPCs) are the ones that are easy to tank. They attack those that have poor faction standings and are participating in FW.


I accidentally jumped into highsec at -10 once and could tank the faction police with 1 large rep no problem, while I raced with my alt to bump myself back into jump range. this was many years ago so my have been had some changes since. I did lose a ship once, but that was because I dc'd as I jumped in, and that is just a lame way to lose a ship.

that said there was always the deaggro, jump into highsec, then die to concord to deny the killmail tactic, not sure if that still works?

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2015-07-11 09:14:03 UTC
If you're behind gates, just watch short scan, as others have said.

I've been probed down before but was in the last room of WC so waited to see what happened. 15 thrashers popped up on a 500k dscan so I bugged out in a hurry.

Gated, you can afford to wait and see. Something open like attack of the drones, I'd be more nervous.

Although as a golem, you can easily fight aligned so you actually have a loooot of time to play with, unless you're needing bastion.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#33 - 2015-07-11 09:26:55 UTC
afkalt wrote:
I've been probed down before but was in the last room of WC so waited to see what happened. 15 thrashers popped up on a 500k dscan so I bugged out in a hurry.

Now THAT is certainly being prudent!

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#34 - 2015-07-11 17:25:18 UTC
Here's the thing about being prudent:

You still have your ship don't you? Cool

No mission in hi-sec is worth losing a ship over.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2015-07-11 20:08:19 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Also -10 players do get engaged by CONCORD the moment they enter system in anything not a pod.
This is incorrect, there is a very large difference between the faction police and Concord. Faction Police attack you not Concord.

Further, there is a scale of when the faction police will engage:

Players with -2.0 or worse will be attacked in 1.0 systems
Players with -2.5 or worse will be attacked in 0.9 systems
Players with -3.0 or worse will be attacked in 0.8 systems
Players with -3.5 or worse will be attacked in 0.7 systems
Players with -4.0 or worse will be attacked in 0.6 systems
Players with -4.5 or worse will be attacked in 0.5 systems

The time they take to engage as well as their strength also scales with system sec rating.

Concord only attacks if you do something to criminally flag yourself.

The only exception is if you are in Concord Sov space.


I'm confused then because I know people that are -10 who have lost ships by accidentally jumping into highsec.

The faction navy NPC's that attack you if your standings with their empire are below a certain level (generally an issue for FW) scale in capability as system sec status increases. 0.5 navy are laughable, spawns of 2 frigates and 2 cruisers which can be permatanked in a single rep myrmidon, while 1.0 hit extremely hard with heavy neuting and a brick tanked battleship is require to tank them for long enough to gank war targets.

Tales of pirates losing expensive ships by accidentally jumping into highsec are fairly common; this doesn't make sense if they are not being immediately aggressed by NPC's and can just warp to station. Do the faction police tackle immediately?

I am not doubting your knowledge of ganking mechanics I'm just trying to reconcile this with other experiences, such as pirates saying they cannot enter highsec without being instantly Concorded. Maybe they were criminal flagged at the time.
Paranoid Loyd
#36 - 2015-07-11 20:41:39 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
such as pirates saying they cannot enter highsec without being instantly Concorded. Maybe they were criminal flagged at the time.
They could be flagged, or just not realize it wasn't Concord that killed them. Most people don't even realize there are different types that attack you and just assume they are all Concord.

The one time I was caught, I don't think I had been on grid for more than 10 seconds before I tried to start aligning to jump and was tackled. In a slow moving ship, this means you can easily be tackled and webbed to the point you can't get back to the gate.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#37 - 2015-07-11 20:56:34 UTC
Facpo take a few seconds to warp in. Also, they web you first rather than scram so if you are aligning out you pretty much insta-warp.

Also bear in mind that anyone can tackle you in highsec because you are permanently suspect flagged. All they have to do is keep you on grid until the NPCs spawn to kill you.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Johnathan Coffey
Niforce Triggers
#38 - 2015-07-13 15:22:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnathan Coffey
dropping combat probes in a mission hub

First rule of EVE UI: right click EVERYTHING.
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