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NPE feedback Q and A

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Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#81 - 2015-07-02 15:38:27 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Q: 'Starting skills are a huge barrier, can we give a lot more to new players'
A: Yes. But this is not a simple change. You guys seem fairly agreed that the small amount of starting skills, combined with a high amount of 'must have' support and requirement skills, leads to some really icky barriers to participation for new players. We are inclined to agree and we are in the process of laying out a plan to address the problem. Nothing is set in stone yet but it seems likely that we will try and move new players towards starting with significantly more SP. Maybe between 1 and 2 million. It also seems likely that we will probably avoid any major skill reworks or skill removals. As this plan solidifies you will hear more from us.

I assume that applies to all subscribed accounts and not just newly created ones.

Oh god.
Lyra Gerie
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2015-07-02 15:46:11 UTC
I feel like opportunities should come with a selective boost to skills. If you already have that skill maxed maybe it gives you the advanced skill book. For instance warping to an object should improve some of the basic navigation skills or give them a skill book for a nav skill they don't have that is bound to their account that could teach a skill at level 3 as soon as its injected.

Another idea is to give this ability to the newbie career agents. Rather then give skill books that force you to train for 30 minutes before you can put a module on for the next mission, they could just reward you with the SP to be able to use the module in question. This works awesome in a few ways:
First they can further themselves in careers that seem fulfilling to them
They get access to modules that were normally behind basic skill walls
It gives a perfect chance for CCP to introduce the skill system and how it relates to what things can and can not be used

As for attributes and learning implants, getting rid of specific modifiers and applying a universal one should work. Since they give multipliers to skill learning speed as opposed to attributes the multiplier would be slightly lower as you can still plug in five of them if you want. This would be a perfect way to have risk vs reward while being able to remove the horrid attribute system.

Further since they have a lower multiplier it gives CCP a chance to add other effects to these implants to give other incentives then learning to them. Something that will make a player still risk them in battle rather then having a learning jump clone.
Somos
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#83 - 2015-07-02 15:46:31 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:

Your choice is to find a suitable attribute point distribution, remap for them and then use the implants to compensate for either skills falling out of the plan's most used attributes or further improve the training time of those which fall into the most used attributes.
Furthermore, I cannot confirm that my 4 years in EVE with Perc/Mem attribute mapping have been unfun at any stage. Why? Because I made an informed decision and use implants to further improve my training. Sure, Trade, Leadership, Social takes a bit longer to train, but so what? The couple of minutes do not matter. Moreover, these skill categories are of no importance to a combat focused character and thus the training time increase can be ignored.


It's not just a couple of minutes. Look at how much time you'll save by remapping. It's months of time saved over a few years.

Just because a broken system doesn't bother you doesn't mean that it isn't broken.

Many new players, and this is still about the NPE, waste or have no clue how to use remaps. Should we punish new players into having a horrible remap for a year because they didn't know better? Some would argue yes, that's what EVE is about, I say no. No because as a game in a saturated market we need to help our new players learn and grow and not punish them for a year because of their learning experience.

If we can keep new players around longer, make EVE's NPE a little more forgiving, I'd gladly take that over being able to remap to some specialized course that only a vet can really take advantage of. New players have to train so much that is so scattered around that they can't take advantage of remaps even if they wanted to, let alone the knowledge to do so.

It's an overly complicated system that is extremely unforgiving that still offers no tangible choice to capsuleers. If you want more SP/Hr you HAVE to remap or inject attributes. The system is akin to clones, there isn't really a choice. You either do those or you lose SP/Hr. That isn't a fun or engaging system.
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#84 - 2015-07-02 15:52:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Masao Kurata
The SP system has no redeeming value except for increasing CCP revenue, which of course I understand you're in favour of. If everyone could fly everything from the start that would not make EVE a worse game in the slightest.

Learning implants can simply be reimbursed for CONCORD LP and ISK at the rate they cost now, and pirate implants part reimbursed based on the learning component they would lose. We'll miss the near automatic +5 set on carebear pod killmails, but we'll live.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#85 - 2015-07-02 15:53:50 UTC
*hobbles in and pulls up a chair* Gather round all you younging and let Uncle Reaper tell you a story...

A long time ago, in the year of 2004, when Reaper was but a new born pilot, we had this thing called a charitor creator. Now then, back then you would pick your race, class, and school as you do now. however, unlike no, where you pretty much get the same base skills no matter which path you chose, back in 2004 that was not the case.

Your attributes and basic skills would be determined by the race, class, and school you chose. It used to be, that if you wnated a hauler alt, you coudl go min and be able to fly a mamoth and use t1 cargo expanders, and iirc a AB as soon as you finished making your char.

If you went military with caldari or galente, you coudl have the base skills to fly an AF (you would need to buy the AF skill) pretty much form the start.

This imo gave a huge advantage to new players and allowed them to get into the right faster.

I think this is how it should be, a traditional MMO creator to get you basic skills so you can be ready to go from the gate, but not limiting you in your scope. (i.e. the free form skill system remains open)

Now then, a few years after this, CCP implemented a 'faster training' program. New accounts were able to accrue skill points 50-100% faster in the first 30 days then there older counter parts. This too seems to have gome the way of the do-do (they had this in the first Atari box set back in 07)

I think both of these would be nice for new players, you get a good ammount of starting skills to do a job, and then you can train faster during 30 days, this ofc would be used by vets for alts but meh. It would help get people out the door faster and able to do stuff.

just my two isk

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
SilentAsTheGrave
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2015-07-02 15:54:37 UTC
I make a post expressing the need for attributes and learning implants to go away. Explain how it is harmful to new players. Everyone goes ballistic. CCP makes the same post and everyone nods in agreement.

I don't even. Ugh
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#87 - 2015-07-02 15:55:23 UTC
Masao Kurata wrote:
The SP system has no redeeming value except for increasing CCP revenue, which of course I understand you're in favour of. If everyone could fly everything from the start that would not make EVE a worse game in the slightest.

Learning implants can simply be reimbursed for CONCORD LP and ISK at the rate they cost now, and pirate implants part reimbursed based on the learning component they would lose. We'll miss the near automatic +5 set on carebear pod killmails, but we'll live.



The problem is not that, its that implants are tied into things like drops. So just outright removing them, would make some complex and missions worthless, as that is the biggest payout for doing them. The implants would need to be modifed or replaced with something else. That is where the issue lies.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Lim Hiaret
Hiaret Family
#88 - 2015-07-02 15:58:42 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Lim Hiaret wrote:
New player (real new player) would benefit greatly from any activity based skill progression. Players would not immediately need to understand the complicated SP system. They would automatically get the SP required for what they do and what interests them at that time. Also they can do something (play) to get the next module or ship and actually achieve something (instead of wait whatever amount of time). Also this would be much closer to the 'industry standard' players are used to.


How does it benefit a new player to trick him in to thinking the game works one way at the start, then tip the rug half a week in and go "nope, its completely different for the rest of the game"? Is the first region of WoW an RTS, the first track on a racing game done without collision detection if the rest of the game has it? Of course not.

Also, hiding prizes behind opportunities is a painful way to "force" newbies in to doing things they don't want to do, "you don't have to do this, but if you don't, go sit in the corner, no cookie".

More sp off the bat (although, I think this is a bad alternative because an ignorant newbie is going to likely waste it), higher starting levels in the more tedious skills (ie, the fitting ones), or just straight removing prerequisites on the majority of T1 modules are all fine and sensible alternatives. Grinding for your sp is not.


Opportunities are prob. not the best way to reward player activity. I just thought about how to reward the 'you turned your camera in space' Opportunity. But I disagree with grinding sp is always bad. For new players it is actually not bad at all. They are active anyway. They want to explore the possibilities of EVE. (If they are not active, why did they install the client?) Grinding gets bad for high level skills and for older player. Then again, many grind for ISK all day and don’t complain.

Reducing requirements sounds good but where do you stop. What about all the skills not related to flying in space? Why not remove skills at all and make us equal before ISK?
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#89 - 2015-07-02 16:02:47 UTC
I had this idea when people keep talking about removing attributes and that skill training sucks.

A way that you could replace the implants is to remove attributes entirely, and instead of skill training, you could borrow from dust and do SP acru. So you get a set number of skill points over the day, like you do now, but they are applayble skill points. So instead of say training BS to 5, you earn sp's that you then apply to skills. This coudl have implants change into boosters to increase the ammount of points you earn. (yes this could lead into then selling the dust boosters to eve players for aurum, but im ignoring that) This would give felaxabilty for peopel to use the skills how they like, but ofc the draw back is now to get BS 5 you;d have to acrew 30 days worth of skill points to apply instead of just waitting

Note: Eves skill system is one of the reaosn i have been here for 11.5 years, changing it to a more tradiitonal run around kill skit with sticks lvel up system will make me leave. I think skill point acrew would be a decent comprimise and more of a felxable system (implants, boosters, hell even a new drug could be intriduced to acrew sp's faster. The drug coudl have some major draw back slike you will gain sp's 3x faster for 1 day.. then you will gain sp's 2X slower for a week (so you keep taking the drug, creating a form of addiction in eve) anyway. just rambling now.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#90 - 2015-07-02 16:05:50 UTC
There are multiple approaches to attribute and implants problem.

1. Soft removal of attributes: remove remaps, level current attributes at current max, keep learning implants. This is slightly ugly but could be potentially used as a first step in gradual removal plan. It deals with remaps while still allowing players to increase training in given skill branch.

2. Complete removal of attributes, leaving implants but working differently. Remowing tbe concept of attributes, learning implants left but with changed working to allow flat increase in sp/hour in all training OR in selected skill branches. This will give players more informed way of understanding how implant affect their skillplan.

3. Hardcore: no more sp/h variety. Current learning implants just deleted, sp/h set at flat current max with a set of +x implants. All implants with secondary effects looses their learning part. This leaves a blank spot in todays implnt slots unless you use sets. Introduce ca-5 implant and omega to complete the set and introduce more low impact, newbie friendly implant sets. Or introduce new kind of implants that go in there that affects other implants instead of character(i.e. +30% to all armor implants effects) or maybe implants that gives you temporary effects? Sort of like booster works but thinking in days not minutes this time.



Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?
Somos
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#91 - 2015-07-02 16:06:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Somos
Lim Hiaret wrote:

Opportunities are prob. not the best way to reward player activity. I just thought about how to reward the 'you turned your camera in space' Opportunity. But I disagree with grinding sp is always bad. For new players it is actually not bad at all. They are active anyway. They want to explore the possibilities of EVE. (If they are not active, why did they install the client?) Grinding gets bad for high level skills and for older player. Then again, many grind for ISK all day and don’t complain.

Reducing requirements sounds good but where do you stop. What about all the skills not related to flying in space? Why not remove skills at all and make us equal before ISK?


It's bad in that for new players, SP is all you can think about. Want to fly that new frigate? Well, better train up 5 new skills to 1-3 to try a T1 frig. Want to warp across a system without having to stop 3 times mid warp, better train Warp Drive Op.

For older players who have SP it isn't an issue because it's in the past, for new players it's a huge issue because they have a TON of skills to train. Not only the fun ones like weaponry and spaceship skills but also support skills that suck to train.

I know I've had a ton more fun training a frig/cruiser skill to V than I have training AWU to V. While AVU is far reaching and extremely helpful it isn't a fun train. New players have a TON of skills like that.
BUCK194
Capts Deranged Cavaliers
#92 - 2015-07-02 16:07:31 UTC
As to attribute enhancing implants and what to do with them if attributes are removed. Remove them. Things like Slaves, remove the attribute bonus. People who stockpile learning implants or have them installed get refunded ISK.

My .02 ISK opinion is that simplest in this instance is best. Set the SP gain rate at something reasonable across the board and reduce the complexity a bit, in a good way. The learning implants specifically are a dis-incentive to venturing into dangerous space or participating in PvP. I know you can clone jump out of them but that is a hassle, sets a timer, etc. Incentivise players to PvP at the drop of a hat and they would be more likely to quickly re-ship and fight. I don't know how many times I've heard, "I would fleet up and skirmish with those guys but I'm in an expensive clone." Jump out of it I say... I can't be assed just for one little skirmish they say...

Newer players especially don't want to loose that first good +3 or +4 learning clone (or that 1.1 multiplier clone if they became that).
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#93 - 2015-07-02 16:08:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Terra Chrall
CCP Rise wrote:


Q: 'Attributes aren't very interesting, you should remove them'
A: Again, we agree. Team Size Matters discussed removing them on the o7 show (or some other public venue) awhile back and it's still something we are very interested in. We need to figure out a good way to handle all the learning implants in the game though, which is actually a difficult problem. If any of you have awesome ideas for how to handle it don't hesitate to make suggestions.
o/

Sometimes the simplest solutions are the best. Remove learning implants (refund market value ISK). For the hybrid learning implants, low/mid/high-grades, remove the learning component and either add a synergistic 2nd bonus or give a small boost to the main bonus.

Adjust sp/hour for all users assuming a semi-optimized remap +3 or 4 with a +3 or 4 implant installed. Or hard code the attributes to all 26 to 28 and no remaps.

A maxed remap with +5s would be a primary attribute of 32 and secondary of 26, so 26 to 28 across the board is below max but not so low as to give an unfair advantage to those that were using maxed remaps and +4s or +5s for years.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#94 - 2015-07-02 16:10:25 UTC
Somos wrote:
Many new players, and this is still about the NPE, waste or have no clue how to use remaps. Should we punish new players into having a horrible remap for a year because they didn't know better? Some would argue yes, that's what EVE is about, I say no. No because as a game in a saturated market we need to help our new players learn and grow and not punish them for a year because of their learning experience.

Then these players should ask other players before doing something. I have been in this situation as well, I have asked other, more experienced players, and I could take the right decision. Removing a system that works well because new players cannot be bothered to talk to other people or look around on Google for help and to inform themselves is not a way to go ... should not be a way to go. Instead, people and CCP should help to educate them and increase and improve ways this education works. All CCP and people like you are arguing for is removing the need to think, socialize, sit back and consider options and then act. If that is what is it needs to get players to stick to EVE, we might as well do what Masao Kurata suggested.

As said before, my remapping has not punished me at all because of the above reasons. If you remapped without thinking about it, you deserve the reminder that there are consequences to uninformed decisions.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#95 - 2015-07-02 16:14:22 UTC
Terra Chrall wrote:

For the hybrid learning implants, low/mid/high-grades, remove the learning component and either add a synergistic 2nd bonus or give a small boost to the main bonus.


here's a better idea, how about remove them. unless you think +50% armour/speed/shield boost implants have improved the game.
AurielS
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#96 - 2015-07-02 16:21:54 UTC
My suggestion about the removal of attributes:

As a first step to address the topic of attributes, I'd suggest that you simply set every attribute to 0 and change the base SP/h to a value that would give skills a similar training time that it has today with perfect mapping. You can always tune it down if you decide it's better for the SP/h to be lower/higher.

With that you can remove remaps right away, and implants will still be helpful since attributes will still exist. Player's can still choose to use them to boost their training a little bit, and new players can train without the hassle that (IMO) attributes and remaps are.
cpu939
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2015-07-02 16:24:33 UTC
1 - basic skills, as said before there was a time when you could chose the starting skills

my view the starting player has 2 options industry or pvp
all start with some basic skills such as missiles, laser, hybrids or projectile

pvper get some basic skills suck as webs, target pointer and scram and some sort of agent to teach them of the use of these

Gate camp
your role in this mission is to x,y or z the target
reward x amount of isk

next mission have them die and give them back the ship as fitted

industry char

basic mining and maybe production skills

mission mine x
next mission build x
3rd mission mine x have them die replace the ship

ccp rise you talked about giving them 1-2m sp why not give them the above plus a skill point pool to use as they see fit

someone already said this but i think it was a good idea everyone trains at max level without implants, implants then adds to the point/ph

also when a new player starts mail the with a link to eve wiki/eve uni and there wiki and any other useful public wiki or site
Somos
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#98 - 2015-07-02 16:25:52 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:

Then these players should ask other players before doing something. I have been in this situation as well, I have asked other, more experienced players, and I could take the right decision. Removing a system that works well because new players cannot be bothered to talk to other people or look around on Google for help and to inform themselves is not a way to go ... should not be a way to go. Instead, people and CCP should help to educate them and increase and improve ways this education works. All CCP and people like you are arguing for is removing the need to think, socialize, sit back and consider options and then act. If that is what is it needs to get players to stick to EVE, we might as well do what Masao Kurata suggested.

As said before, my remapping has not punished me at all because of the above reasons. If you remapped without thinking about it, you deserve the reminder that there are consequences to uninformed decisions.


Simple research and talking to vets helps a ton, that isn't the point however.

The system doesn't work well as noted by Rise in the OP:

CCP Rise wrote:

Q: 'Attributes aren't very interesting, you should remove them'
A: Again, we agree. Team Size Matters discussed removing them on the o7 show (or some other public venue) awhile back and it's still something we are very interested in. We need to figure out a good way to handle all the learning implants in the game though, which is actually a difficult problem. If any of you have awesome ideas for how to handle it don't hesitate to make suggestions.


It's already been deemed as something uninteresting and seems it would be gone if not for learning implants being a hurdle.

I'm with you, a remap has worked wonders for me. Having a year in Perc/Will has gotten me nearly every subcap I could ask to fly, as an educated EVE player it's worked extremely well for me. The issue arises when again, like the clone system, there isn't much choice. You either do something for more SP or you don't. It's not robust. Most implants allow you to pick and chose your style of gameplay, attributes don't. It's uninteresting, offers no real choice, and only serves as a disincentive for many players from playing the game how they want.

Can they still train Social skills while mapped to Per/Wil, sure. Chances are you wont though. I'm much more in support of getting rid of the outdated system that feels like a hindrance more than another robust system that offers meaningful choice to players. The current state gives players no choice; you either remap and inject learning implants or you don't learn skills faster that's neither fun nor engaging.
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#99 - 2015-07-02 16:30:21 UTC
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
I make a post expressing the need for attributes and learning implants to go away. Explain how it is harmful to new players. Everyone goes ballistic. CCP makes the same post and everyone nods in agreement.

I don't even. Ugh


Welcome to fanboi HQ.
Somos
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#100 - 2015-07-02 16:31:20 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Terra Chrall wrote:

For the hybrid learning implants, low/mid/high-grades, remove the learning component and either add a synergistic 2nd bonus or give a small boost to the main bonus.


here's a better idea, how about remove them. unless you think +50% armour/speed/shield boost implants have improved the game.



They offer a great bit of choice to the game though. Learning implants do nothing but give you more SP. There isn't choice in it.

Other implants are great. If you want to specialize in something implants are there to help you do it. It offers great choice to a lot of capsuleers and that's really what CCP has been striving for with a lot of changes.

Keeping skill implants, like Slaves/Crystals is fine, just remove the attribute part of them.