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[Aegis] Missile balance package

First post First post First post
Author
Mario Putzo
#521 - 2015-07-01 05:55:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
GreyGryphon wrote:

The problem with changing missile stats is that their effectiveness against intended targets and unintended targets is closely related. There is also little difference between explosion radius or explosion velocity outside of shooting much smaller targets. I don't have room to explain why here, but I have tried to explain this in my forum post on the missile damage equation.


Not in all cases the DRF and MVF keep things in check. Frigates take a pile less damage than cruisers in most cases and ER is a stat you can play with for the most part.

VS Heavy Missiles (Frig v Cruiser)
Sig difference ~83% smaller
Speed difference 73% Faster
Roughly 62 % less damage received

Now this of course ONLY applies to ER and EV factors. a 5% increase to damage is a flat 5% increase no matter what size you are or how fast you are moving. Another stat that will always result in more damage is adding explosion velocity, increasing EV by 5% will increase damage by 5% on anything that checks with EV.

Explosion Radius however will not increase everything by 5%. because ER is check with EV in 1 of 2 equations its value can be freely adjusted with minimal consequence on smaller objects.

For example with the above, reducing heavy missiles from 140 m> 125m will result in about 9% more applied damage vs cruisers, it only results in ~3.4% more damage against frigates. It will have either no impact or minimal impact on BC or BS depending on the target and their sig and speed. This means CCP can tweak damage application to a desired point vs Cruisers, while having a minimal impact on Frigates/Dessie or anything above it. At least less then their proposed 5% flat increase to damage.

Which is why reverting the change to Heavy Missile Explosion Radius > Adding 5% to Damage. In addition of course to stepping on toes of medium arty. 5% damage is 5% damage, a change to ER still is dependent on your relative size, and your relative speed.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#522 - 2015-07-01 07:00:18 UTC
lol, he said medium arty. What is medium arty?
Kasia en Tilavine
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#523 - 2015-07-01 07:13:55 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
lol, he said medium arty. What is medium arty?



I thought those were called railguns? All you bitter vets using legacy names... So confusing.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#524 - 2015-07-01 07:17:21 UTC
Oi, alphacane is still a thing.
Alexiel Fireborn
Renegade Stars
Stellae Renascitur
#525 - 2015-07-01 10:28:25 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
A Comprehensive Missile Balance Package
(In addition to the proposed Aegis changes.)

Remove Kinetic Pigeon Holes
• Condor gets a +10% damage bonus to rockets and light missiles
• Buzzard gets a +5% damage bonus to rockets and light missiles
• Hookbill gets a +20% damage bonus to rockets and light missiles
• Hawk gets a 10% damage bonus to rockets and light missiles
• Corax gets a +5% damage bonus to rockets and light missiles
• Flycatcher gets a +10% damage bonus to rockets and light missiles
• Cerberus gets a +5% damage bonus to light, heavy and heavy assault missiles
• Onyx gets a +5% damage bonus to light, heavy and heavy assault missiles
• Rook gets a +7.5% damage bonus to light, heavy and heavy assault missiles
• Navy Osprey gets a +10% damage bonus to light, heavy and heavy assault missiles
• Drake gets a +5% rate of fire bonus to heavy and heavy assault missiles (it's already benefiting from the 5% heavy missile buff); this makes it comparable to the Raven in terms of relationship between Battlecruisers and Battleships.
• Nighthawk gets a +7.5% damage bonus to heavy and heavy assault missiles
• Tengu Accelerated Ejection subsystem gets a +5% missile damage bonus

Nerf Light Missiles; Buff Rockets; Buff Heavy Missiles; Buff Torpedoes; Buff Heavy Assault Missiles
• Swap the explosion velocity bonus between rockets (+20m/sec) and light missiles (-20m/sec)
• In addition to the 5% damage buff to heavy missiles, decrease the explosion radius on all heavy missiles by -5m and increase the explosion velocity on all heavy missiles by +10m/sec.
• All torpedoes receive a -33% reduction in explosion radius (which gives them slightly better damage application over cruise missiles)
• All heavy assault missiles receive a +20% increase to explosion velocity and -5m reduction in explosion radius

Nerf Bomber Capacity
• Reduce cargo capacity by 50-100m3 (torpedoes just received a huge volume reduction and their damage application is increasing quite significantly)

New Faction Missile Modules
• Mordu's Legion Ballistic Control System: 15% missile ROF, 7.5% missile damage
• Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System (updated): 12.5% missile ROF, 10% missile damage
• Mordu's Legion Missile Guidance Enhancer: 5% explosion velocity, 5% explosion radius, 15% missile velocity, -15% missile flight time
• Caldari Navy Missile Guidance Computer: 7.5% explosion radius, 7.5% explosion velocity, 7.5% missile velocity, 7.5% missile flight time
• Republic Fleet Missile Guidance Computer: 7.5% explosion radius, 7.5% explosion velocity, 7.5% missile velocity, 7.5% missile flight time
(At least the addition of Faction modules will offset the recent MGC/MGE 'nerf'.)

Mordus Legion Ship Changes
• All missile damage bonuses for Mordu's Legion ships change to ROF bonuses. This results in a slight nerf to the Orthrus when utilizing RLMLs and a slight buff to the Barghest when utilizing torpedoes or cruise missiles.

Missile Naga
• The Naga gets reverted back to a missile Battlecruiser (yes, it was a missile behemoth to begin with): 5% torpedo and cruise missile damage and 10% missile velocity per level.


Arthur Aihaken for President ! +1
Alexiel Fireborn
Renegade Stars
Stellae Renascitur
#526 - 2015-07-01 10:35:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexiel Fireborn
Tengu Accelerated Ejection subsystem gets a +5% missile damage bonus

well , maybe 7.5% sounds much much better , sorry it`s my favorite ship :)



And this archaic KINETIC LOCK must beREMOVED!

ffs , Amarr and Minmatar have better missile ships than Caldari!
about ecm for missiles - ooooo so much powerfull missiles - we need something to resist them , how about improve defenders , thats all! Imo EWAR in this moment is well ballanced anyway.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#527 - 2015-07-01 10:52:04 UTC
Alexiel Fireborn wrote:

Tengu Accelerated Ejection subsystem gets a +5% missile damage bonus

well , maybe 7.5% sounds much much better , sorry it`s my favorite ship :)

Arthur just switch existing bonuses to all 4 damage types. I think if kinetic lock will be removed someday (hope so) and ships would keep current dmg bonuses some other stats must be nerfed. Tengu for example: +5% missile damage but +5 ROF (-2,5%) +5% velocity (-2,5%). So damage would be selectable but restrainted by other stats.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#528 - 2015-07-01 11:36:12 UTC
ok, so are the missile rigs stacking penalized now or not? or we will find out in the patch day?
Kestielh Mechielv
21st Mordu's Legion
#529 - 2015-07-01 11:49:37 UTC
To all people crying about not having EWAR against missiles.....Learn to play...Yes there is one available and its called ''DAMPENER''. You should more be worried about EWAR against DRONES since drone when engaged there is no possibilities to counter them except to destroye them...

same for missiles with smartbombs...but you can also use dampeners..without lock you can't shoot!

By the way nice change. But I hope they did not forget HAM who is actually close to useless since rapid light missiles are more interesting on cruiser size missile boat than any HAM ''too short range'' for what they do on field.
Kalen Pavle
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#530 - 2015-07-01 12:08:55 UTC
The midslot mod to counter missile damage is the afterburner.
stoicfaux
#531 - 2015-07-01 12:31:27 UTC
gascanu wrote:
ok, so are the missile rigs stacking penalized now or not? or we will find out in the patch day?

Well, Rigors are stacking penalized on Sisi, and the missile guidance modules have the revised stats, so
a) CCP is still working on a fix to allow rigors/flares to remain unstacked while the missile guidance modules remain stacking penalized, or

b) Rigors/Flares will be stacking penalized by design, or

c) Both a & b. CCP is quietly working on fixing the problem but hasn't announced anything so as to be able to claim "it's by design" if they fail, or "Ta-da! Who loves their missile boat players?!?" if they succeed. Meaning, if they announced stacked rigors/flares were a bug and then couldn't fix the problem, they would be hounded by a rabid player base until the end of time to fix it.

=/


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#532 - 2015-07-01 12:37:57 UTC
d) This thread is long abandoned and they don't care and the never not nerf caldari train continues unmolested.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#533 - 2015-07-01 13:30:50 UTC
afkalt wrote:
d) This thread is long abandoned and they don't care and the never not nerf caldari train continues unmolested.


e) those responsible for desicion making went on the summer holidays and read the forums for entertaining only, indirectly mocking us for even trying.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#534 - 2015-07-01 14:10:04 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
afkalt wrote:
d) This thread is long abandoned and they don't care and the never not nerf caldari train continues unmolested.


e) those responsible for desicion making went on the summer holidays and read the forums for entertaining only, indirectly mocking us for even trying.


600 eyes though see more than 12, atleast regarding possible issues and complications that arise. Want to impose that is the main benefit of those threads, remember the sabre with 10AU/s warpspeed before the spacebreak changes, when that bubble went up before the DIC was on your overview.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#535 - 2015-07-01 14:30:40 UTC
And yet the more frequent release cycle allows them to make slightly more ambitious changes because they're easy and quick to cycle. Yet we pre-nerf mods before they are even out "because turrets" and slap some stacking penalties on systems already hurting for application.
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#536 - 2015-07-01 15:12:20 UTC
Kalen Pavle wrote:
The midslot mod to counter missile damage is the afterburner.

You forgot that every ship comes with a pre-installed missile counter, the engine. Just by turning it on, in literally any direction, you too can say "Damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead!" and charge directly into the path of missiles and watch as they "always hit" until you kill the poor bastard.
stoicfaux
#537 - 2015-07-01 16:20:22 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
afkalt wrote:
d) This thread is long abandoned and they don't care and the never not nerf caldari train continues unmolested.


e) those responsible for desicion making went on the summer holidays and read the forums for entertaining only, indirectly mocking us for even trying.

Personally, I blame the guy who, earlier in the thread, pointed out that missiles don't get wrecking hits, thus prompting CCP Rise to say "Oh, I'll show you missile wrecking hits..."

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#538 - 2015-07-01 16:24:23 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
afkalt wrote:
d) This thread is long abandoned and they don't care and the never not nerf caldari train continues unmolested.


e) those responsible for desicion making went on the summer holidays and read the forums for entertaining only, indirectly mocking us for even trying.


600 eyes though see more than 12, atleast regarding possible issues and complications that arise. Want to impose that is the main benefit of those threads, remember the sabre with 10AU/s warpspeed before the spacebreak changes, when that bubble went up before the DIC was on your overview.


and i remember how long it took till they decided it was game breaking, almost made it live; so, to be honest there is almost no point in going and testing stuff on sisi anymore; ccp will do whatever they think it's good, and if some of the changes concur with general player opinion, then they'll go "oh look, thx to your feedback we changed this and that", if no, bad luck, "maybe we'll hack some more next time"...
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#539 - 2015-07-01 16:34:42 UTC
If rigs are now stacking penalized, can I change my vote to no we don't want these modules? For smaller ships rigs are what get used the most for range and application. If these now do less and I can't equip a new MGC/E this is a nerf to a system that didn't need a nerf.

If you can get the balance right, i am all for the newness. I am a CCP supporter and promoter, I want to believe that you are making things better for missile users. Please prove my faith in you correct.
Thomas Orgazolic
Celestari Industries
#540 - 2015-07-01 17:00:30 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
rockets could do with lower volume

torps need better fitting and range (rockets 10km, hams 20km, torps 20km, what?)

and as always, missiles will always be garbage while skirmish links are around. missile damage is basically determined by speed:sig. you can't improve speed:sig by ~80% and still expect missiles to work.



I don't know about the Rocket Volume thing, but your point on Torps is right on. They have absurd low range for a battleship weapon system, almost as bad as Blasters though with the right ammo you can reach out with falloff at least.

Your point about Skirmish Links does not really hold water, considering Armor and Siege links work pretty good for mitigating damage too.


I have to agree. Rockets' volume is their one benefit.