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[Aegis] Missile balance package

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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#301 - 2015-06-26 11:28:58 UTC
I posted a phoon earlier in this thread. It'll be sick for small fights. I don't recall if it was AAR or buffer because either fits and works.

You can squeeze something like 90k ehp out them, and still have something like 700 dps and THREE of the new mods in the mids, plus prop mod PLUS LMJD

I don't think for a second the large fleet meta will move, but small gangs these are fairly game changing.
Skyler Hawk
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#302 - 2015-06-26 11:33:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Skyler Hawk
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Skyler Hawk wrote:
These things are overpowered to the point of being broken as it stands. A single range-scripted MGC increases range by 42% whereas a range-scripted tracking computer gives a 15% increase to optimal and 30% to falloff, which is much less powerful. It's harder to directly compare the difference in damage application between a tracking-scripted TC and a precision-scripted MGC due to the differences between the tracking and missile damage equations, but in practical terms the improvement in application that you get from the scripted MGCs is vastly more significant than a 30% boost to tracking on a turret.

Actually, the current velocity bonus (there is no range bonus) for a scripted MGC on SiSi is only 21%. And this is stacking penalized. Heavy use of these will seriously cut into any shield tank, tackle or EW. You can't make a direct comparison between missiles and guns, because it's apples to oranges (or grapes to sour grapes).

You're wrong, sorry - a missile range script doubles the MGC's base bonuses to both flight time and missile velocity to 19% each. The combined effect is to increase overall range by 41.6%. For example, on SiSi right now a flycatcher with a base missile range of 63 km using faction ammo has its range increase to 89 km when you activate a range-scripted MGC.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#303 - 2015-06-26 12:04:19 UTC
Skyler Hawk wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Skyler Hawk wrote:
These things are overpowered to the point of being broken as it stands. A single range-scripted MGC increases range by 42% whereas a range-scripted tracking computer gives a 15% increase to optimal and 30% to falloff, which is much less powerful. It's harder to directly compare the difference in damage application between a tracking-scripted TC and a precision-scripted MGC due to the differences between the tracking and missile damage equations, but in practical terms the improvement in application that you get from the scripted MGCs is vastly more significant than a 30% boost to tracking on a turret.

Actually, the current velocity bonus (there is no range bonus) for a scripted MGC on SiSi is only 21%. And this is stacking penalized. Heavy use of these will seriously cut into any shield tank, tackle or EW. You can't make a direct comparison between missiles and guns, because it's apples to oranges (or grapes to sour grapes).

You're wrong, sorry - a missile range script doubles the MGC's base bonuses to both flight time and missile velocity to 19% each. The combined effect is to increase overall range by 41.6%. For example, on SiSi right now a flycatcher with a base missile range of 63 km using faction ammo has its range increase to 89 km when you activate a range-scripted MGC.


No he's right

Your comparing 2 completely weapon systems that apply their damage through 2 completely different calculations.

Missile Range is a static TxV=R sum, chance to hit is not impacted as long R remains valid
Turret Range is an additive O+F where the chance to hit tends to 0 as F increases

FYI
O+F is effective range
O+(Fx2.6) is maximum range

and yes at F x 2.6 your chance to hit is about 1% ... but that hit can also CRITICALLY HIT
something that missiles cannot do
turrets can miss or crit
missiles only ever hit



It may in future be possible for missiles to "miss" when these e-war features become live,
but I very much doubt they will receive the crit hit function that turrets currently enjoy to compensate
Sky Marshal
State War Academy
Caldari State
#304 - 2015-06-26 13:02:33 UTC
Apart some PVE ships who can afford that, and some specific ships of other races, I don't see where this new modules will be used. Caldari ships won't really get any boost, because Tackle/Tank/Damage choose two...

I am still about to switch to an Eagle, guns are better. The last time I used a Cerberus in a big fleet fight, the missiles didn't reach the targets before they were destroyed... Damn Ishtars.
stoicfaux
#305 - 2015-06-26 13:12:58 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
Skyler Hawk wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:

Actually, the current velocity bonus (there is no range bonus) for a scripted MGC on SiSi is only 21%. And this is stacking penalized. Heavy use of these will seriously cut into any shield tank, tackle or EW. You can't make a direct comparison between missiles and guns, because it's apples to oranges (or grapes to sour grapes).

You're wrong, sorry - a missile range script doubles the MGC's base bonuses to both flight time and missile velocity to 19% each. The combined effect is to increase overall range by 41.6%. For example, on SiSi right now a flycatcher with a base missile range of 63 km using faction ammo has its range increase to 89 km when you activate a range-scripted MGC.


No he's right

Your comparing 2 completely weapon systems that apply their damage through 2 completely different calculations.


Actually, everyone is right. Sisi doesn't display a flight time bonus, so folks are working with different assumptions and getting different conclusions.



Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#306 - 2015-06-26 14:21:37 UTC
Hello

Small update for you on the new modules.

First of all, the first build that went to sisi with the new modules has several incomplete pieces, one of which was the absence of stacking penalties on the explosion radius and explosion velocity bonus for new modules. That should be fixed in the newest build.

Second of all, after some really great feedback from you guys (and from the CSM) we are going to tune the initial numbers for these modules down a bit from what was proposed in the OP. There's a few problems with the numbers proposed originally but at the end of the day it would have meant Missile Guidance Modules were substantially stronger than their tracking counterparts (around 50% stronger for the enhancer and around 33% stronger for the computer).

I'm going to just update the OP with the new numbers and you guys can let me know what you think. If you notice any other problems or bugs on sisi be sure to point them out.

Thanks for all the feedback so far!

@ccp_rise
Mario Putzo
#307 - 2015-06-26 14:33:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
CCP Rise wrote:
Hello

Small update for you on the new modules.

First of all, the first build that went to sisi with the new modules has several incomplete pieces, one of which was the absence of stacking penalties on the explosion radius and explosion velocity bonus for new modules. That should be fixed in the newest build.

Second of all, after some really great feedback from you guys (and from the CSM) we are going to tune the initial numbers for these modules down a bit from what was proposed in the OP. There's a few problems with the numbers proposed originally but at the end of the day it would have meant Missile Guidance Modules were substantially stronger than their tracking counterparts (around 50% stronger for the enhancer and around 33% stronger for the computer).

I'm going to just update the OP with the new numbers and you guys can let me know what you think. If you notice any other problems or bugs on sisi be sure to point them out.

Thanks for all the feedback so far!


Nice,
So instead of needing only 3 application mods to match applied DPS % from turrets using 1 Tracking Computer I only need 4 when using heavy missiles against an AB cruiser. Pretty much right back where we are currently using all three rig slots for application purposes.

Even more reason to change that 5% HM damage change to redaction of the 12% Explosion Radius change you made 3 years ago.

Lets not also forget Turrets have more raw DPS , Turrets apply damage instantly, and turrets can not be blapped off grid losing 100% of damage. Will missiles be getting this as well? Since everything needs to be uniform?
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#308 - 2015-06-26 14:39:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
CCP Rise wrote:
Hello

Small update for you on the new modules.

First of all, the first build that went to sisi with the new modules has several incomplete pieces, one of which was the absence of stacking penalties on the explosion radius and explosion velocity bonus for new modules. That should be fixed in the newest build.

Second of all, after some really great feedback from you guys (and from the CSM) we are going to tune the initial numbers for these modules down a bit from what was proposed in the OP. There's a few problems with the numbers proposed originally but at the end of the day it would have meant Missile Guidance Modules were substantially stronger than their tracking counterparts (around 50% stronger for the enhancer and around 33% stronger for the computer).

I'm going to just update the OP with the new numbers and you guys can let me know what you think. If you notice any other problems or bugs on sisi be sure to point them out.

Thanks for all the feedback so far!


I'm not sure about the need for uniformity between the two.

First off, missile travel time is a pain because of delayed damage and reduce effective range for the non-fleeing missile user.
Having a decent boost was nice for that, and well deserved.

Second, missile damage application is rarely satisfactory, a stasis is mandatory in most cases, except that it is often not possible using long range missiles. Which are the ones needing the more love. If you compare the missile damage application against turret application, you will see why missile appmication mods or stats desperately need help. And if you factor-in the overall lower dps + not-so-nerfed firewalling, I wonder if it will be viable for medium to large gang pvp. Although the number one issue by FAR is delayed damage. This is a huuuuge downside in a game where logistics are so powerful that mpst tactics rely on outpacing them.

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Callisto Helix
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#309 - 2015-06-26 14:40:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Callisto Helix
CCP Rise wrote:
Hello

Small update for you on the new modules.

First of all, the first build that went to sisi with the new modules has several incomplete pieces, one of which was the absence of stacking penalties on the explosion radius and explosion velocity bonus for new modules. That should be fixed in the newest build.

Second of all, after some really great feedback from you guys (and from the CSM) we are going to tune the initial numbers for these modules down a bit from what was proposed in the OP. There's a few problems with the numbers proposed originally but at the end of the day it would have meant Missile Guidance Modules were substantially stronger than their tracking counterparts (around 50% stronger for the enhancer and around 33% stronger for the computer).

I'm going to just update the OP with the new numbers and you guys can let me know what you think. If you notice any other problems or bugs on sisi be sure to point them out.

Thanks for all the feedback so far!


As the missile damage application formula is so horribly broken in its current state, I think it's okay if the missile damage application mods are significantly more powerful than their turret counterparts.

Unless you're going to be re-balancing that formula as well, in which case this might end up working out okay in the end.
Skir Skor
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#310 - 2015-06-26 14:54:08 UTC
The FOF missiles are in a really bad spot atm . Any chance of some love?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z9_N1ugYSE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rL4Z5GM92Qg
stoicfaux
#311 - 2015-06-26 14:54:52 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
CCP Rise wrote:
Hello

Second of all, after some really great feedback from you guys (and from the CSM) we are going to tune the initial numbers for these modules down a bit from what was proposed in the OP. There's a few problems with the numbers proposed originally but at the end of the day it would have meant Missile Guidance Modules were substantially stronger than their tracking counterparts (around 50% stronger for the enhancer and around 33% stronger for the computer).

And bananas should be as difficult to peel as apples? =/

Missiles are *very* different from guns and have a *very* different set of problems to overcome. Why should "missile TCs" be limited by "gun TCs"? Personally, I was liking the current stats as a way of getting away from the need to mount "mandatory" rigor rigs.

Can you please provide a bit more of the reasoning for reducing their bonuses?

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
stoicfaux
#312 - 2015-06-26 15:15:51 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Updated with the new and reduced MGC/MGE values.

Normalized values in terms of how they affect the 2nd part of the missile formula

1,000.0% - 90% Web (At which point the 1st part of the missile formula overrides the 2nd part, so this isn't relevant.)
250.0% - 60% Web
222.2% - 55% Web
200.0% - 50% Web 
187.5% - 2x Rigor II, Flare II
179.7% - 2x Rigor II, Flare I
162.8% - 3x Rigor I
156.3% - bonused PWNAGE TP (e.g. Golem)  (skills V)
156.3% - 2x Rigor II
138.4% - 2x Rigor I
137.5% - PWNAGE TP (skills V)
135.3% - MGC II @ 15% w/Precision Script
127.3% - Compact MGC @ 12% w/Precision Script
125.0% - Rigor II
122.2% - MGC I @ 10% w/Precision Script
120.0% - Flare II
117.6% - Rigor I
116.2% - MGC II @ 7.5%
115.0% - Flare I
112.8% - Compact MGC @ 6%
111.6% - MGE II @ 5.5%
110.5% - MGC I @ 5%
110.5% - Compact MGE @ 5%
109.4% - MGE I @ 4.5%


Missile distance: (missile flight/speed rigs are stacking penalized)

123.2% - MGC II @ 11% w/Range Script
120.0% - T2 rig @ 20%
118.8% - MGC Compact @ 9% w/Range Script
116.6% - MGC I @ 8% w/Range Script
115.0% - T2 rig @ 15%
112.4% - MGE II @ 6%
111.3% - MGC I @ 5.5%
111.3% - MGE Compact @ 5.5%
110.3% - MGE I @ 5%
109.5% - MGC Compact @ 4.5%
108.2% - MGC I @ 4%

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#313 - 2015-06-26 15:23:01 UTC
The drake was happy for a few moments there..

Oh well :-).

Yaay!!!!
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#314 - 2015-06-26 15:40:14 UTC
Stoicfaux, for the sake of completeness, can you add 90% webs (serpentis) to the list?
stoicfaux
#315 - 2015-06-26 15:48:24 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Stoicfaux, for the sake of completeness, can you add 90% webs (serpentis) to the list?

Bwahahhahaha! 1 / ( 1 - .9) = 10 aka 1,000%. When you've slowed something that much, then (normally) the 1st part of the missile formula takes precedent over the 2nd part, i.e. it all comes down to missile radius versus target radius at that point, namely S / E.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#316 - 2015-06-26 15:51:36 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Heyo

It's getting pretty close to release and I have a lot of balance changes we need to talk about!

This thread is for discussion on a package of missile changes that we are pretty excited to see the results of. So what's in this package?

  • Missile Guidance Enhancers - Low slot modules that increase missile explosion velocity, lower explosion radius, increase missile flight time and increase missile velocity
  • Missile Guidance Computers - Mid slot modules that increase missile explosion velocity, lower explosion radius, increase missile flight time and increase missile velocity. These modules can use Missile Precision and Missile Range scripts and can of course be overheated.
  • Heavy Missile Damage is being increased by 5% for all Heavy Missile Types
  • Torpedo volume is being reduced by half, meaning you can fit twice as many Torpedo's in all launchers (except polarized, which have had their capacity reduced) as before.

    • Some specifics on the new modules:

    We are starting with 3 types in each group. Tech I, Compact (lower fitting requirements), and Tech II. Faction variations would certainly be on the table for later releases when we are happy with the tuning of numbers on these first mods.

    The numbers:

    Missile Guidance Enhancer I
    10 CPU, 1 PG, 4.5% bonus to explosion velocity, explosion radius and 5% bonus to missile velocity and missile flight time
    Pro-Nav Compact Missile Guidance Enhancer
    8 CPU, 1 PG, 5% bonus to explosion velocity, explosion radius and 5.5% bonus to missile velocity and missile flight time
    Missile Guidance Enhancer II
    15 CPU, 1 PG, 5.5% bonus to explosion velocity, explosion radius and 6% bonus to missile velocity and missile flight time

    Missile Guidance Computer I
    28 CPU, 1 PG, 5% bonus to explosion velocity, explosion radius and 4% bonus to missile velocity and missile flight time
    Astro-Inertial Compact Missile Guidance Computer
    24 CPU, 1 PG 6% bonus to explosion velocity, explosion radius and 4.5% bonus to missile velocity and missile flight time
    Missile Guidance Computer II
    35 CPU, 1 PG 7.5% bonus to explosion velocity, explosion radius and 5.5% bonus to missile velocity and missile flight time

    These are set very close to the corresponding turret module numbers and may need adjustment after deployment.

    We would have liked to include disruption modules to go along with these enhancement modules but there are actually some technical hurdles we need to figure out and we didn't want to keep holding back on adding these in the mean time. Look for those sometime in the future.

    Let us know what you think!
    While the initial numbers seemed very strong the new numbers are definitely more average. I hope you have a genuine willingness to boost numbers after release if you don't see desired results.

    Personally, if there was a base missile buff for velocity and explosion velocity then I think these new module stats would be on target. But with missile application against speed being as poor as it is to begin with, these modules do not compensate enough for that.

    But I am glad CCP has introduced modules to help the situation and give more meaningful fitting choices to missile ships. I just hope, especially for heavy missiles and larger, that balancing will find a place to make these ships competitive and desirable.
    Frostys Virpio
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #317 - 2015-06-26 15:54:34 UTC
    stoicfaux wrote:
    Frostys Virpio wrote:
    Stoicfaux, for the sake of completeness, can you add 90% webs (serpentis) to the list?

    Bwahahhahaha! 1 / ( 1 - .9) = 10 aka 1,000%. When you've slowed something that much, then (normally) the 1st part of the missile formula takes precedent over the 2nd part, i.e. it all comes down to missile radius versus target radius at that point, namely S / E.



    I was expecting a rather high value but not 1000% but I'm bad at formula so meh...

    The fact that you still fight something at that point with missiles while tracking become borderline irrelevant should be noted imo. Guns can work on one part of their difficulties to achieve constant good hits while missile have to work both side at the same time...
    Soldarius
    Dreddit
    Test Alliance Please Ignore
    #318 - 2015-06-26 16:06:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Soldarius
    I didn't want to say anything because of the possibility of jinxing the whole damn thing. But as soon as I tried the MGC last night, I knew it was going to get nerfed. >40% range bonus was very strong.

    But the application bonuses too? Those definitely weren't OP.

    Is there a reason for the MGE having stronger range stats than application stats, while the MGC has stronger application stats than range? Maybe because of the ability to script for range on the MGC?

    http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
    Gorski Car
    #319 - 2015-06-26 16:08:00 UTC
    These stats are much better.

    Collect this post
    bunzing heet
    Science and Trade Institute
    Caldari State
    #320 - 2015-06-26 16:09:04 UTC
    Skyler Hawk wrote:
    These things are overpowered to the point of being broken as it stands. A single range-scripted MGC increases range by 42% whereas a range-scripted tracking computer gives a 15% increase to optimal and 30% to falloff, which is much less powerful. It's harder to directly compare the difference in damage application between a tracking-scripted TC and a precision-scripted MGC due to the differences between the tracking and missile damage equations, but in practical terms the improvement in application that you get from the scripted MGCs is vastly more significant than a 30% boost to tracking on a turret.



    That's because you can outrun missiles and really need that range to compensate for that
    As for the application it's needed as well to get the larger missiles on track with the rest of the weapon systems

    Fly safe keep killing And remember I'm watching you !!!!