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Carnyx release - General feedback

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Author
Joe Gormley
Nemo Modicus Group
#2041 - 2015-06-23 17:59:34 UTC
What is the reasoning for blue???

Blue is kind of a special colour in game...

Miss the DEV team that took the time to listen and fix the issues...

Quality over Quantity every time..

Remove the Icons as no fit for purpose!!

Cleanse Serce
Lonesome Capsuleer
#2042 - 2015-06-23 18:04:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Cleanse Serce
Altrue wrote:
CCP Claymore wrote:

Drones:

  • We are going to reduce the number of icons for drones and change the icon so it is not similar to a ship icon.

Player/NPC distinction:

  • We are going to increase the fill on NPC ships and for friendly NPC ships add a blue tint.



Aww that's great news! Big smile

May I suggest for you to change the wreck icon to be less similar to a ship icon while you are at it?


And match empty / fill information (wreck vs containers)
CCP Claymore
C C P
C C P Alliance
#2043 - 2015-06-23 18:22:14 UTC
Joe Gormley wrote:
What is the reasoning for blue???

Blue is kind of a special colour in game...


When I say blue, I mean teal maybe?

Quality Assurance Analyst Team Psycho Sisters

Panterata
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2044 - 2015-06-23 18:23:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Panterata
CCP Claymore

So any chance to use old ships and npc icons?
Or to customize them as per old one for all ships classes? - shiny squares and shiny red crosses

As you can see most of the ppl wants them. Pls reply
Cleanse Serce
Lonesome Capsuleer
#2045 - 2015-06-23 18:26:27 UTC
CCP Claymore wrote:
Joe Gormley wrote:
What is the reasoning for blue???

Blue is kind of a special colour in game...


When I say blue, I mean teal maybe?



That might be a problem for colorblind players.

+10 standing = dark blue
+5 standing = light blue
NPC = teal
Limited Engagement = Cyan

You'll wait for their feedback, but i'm sure there're gonna be issues :p
uhnboy ghost
Corporation 98237776
#2046 - 2015-06-23 18:49:40 UTC  |  Edited by: uhnboy ghost
CCP Claymore wrote:
Hey folks,

So we have been chatting about what we can get ready for the next release, Aegis, to try and improve the icon experience.

Drones:

  • We are going to reduce the number of icons for drones and change the icon so it is not similar to a ship icon.

90% scaling:

  • We are going to increase the stroke thickness on icons to improve readability at 90% while retaining fidelity at 100%.

Player/NPC distinction:

  • We are going to increase the fill on NPC ships and for friendly NPC ships add a blue tint.


We have been looking at these changes with the colorblind player in mind and we have looked at them through some simulators, but not being colorblind we really need your feedback if this is helping your experience. Colorblind players please let us know how they look and if they are better.

We should have these up on SISI before the weekend and will be taking all your feedback on board to make these changes as effective as possible before Aegis drops on July 7th.

There will not be any updates to Icons on TQ before July 7th.


nice, the thicker stroke on icons sounds like a really big improvment, will logon to sisi and have a look

EDIT: when u do the line thicker try to make it so the line under the triangel in destroyer/bc gets lower so the gap gets bigger = easyer to see that there is a line under the triangel

//uhnboy 84K probe scans in 2014 http://i.imgur.com/Uaid5iu.png

Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#2047 - 2015-06-23 18:52:25 UTC
Cleanse Serce wrote:
CCP Claymore wrote:
Joe Gormley wrote:
What is the reasoning for blue???

Blue is kind of a special colour in game...


When I say blue, I mean teal maybe?



That might be a problem for colorblind players.

+10 standing = dark blue
+5 standing = light blue
NPC = teal
Limited Engagement = Cyan

You'll wait for their feedback, but i'm sure there're gonna be issues :p


When is there not a problem for colorblind players?

You need to keep in mind that +10, +5 and limited engagement are customizablemeaning if there is any issue they can fix it themselves. That's what customization is for.

Besides, there is a difference between the color of an icon, and the background color of an icon.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart

Cleanse Serce
Lonesome Capsuleer
#2048 - 2015-06-23 19:08:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Cleanse Serce
Altrue wrote:

When is there not a problem for colorblind players?

You need to keep in mind that +10, +5 and limited engagement are customizablemeaning if there is any issue they can fix it themselves. That's what customization is for.

Besides, there is a difference between the color of an icon, and the background color of an icon.


Yes that can be customized, they can change color to counter colorblind issues and icone / background color are easily reckoning.

http://i.imgur.com/rE6ZQAX.png?1

But as you can see in this picture i've just made, "teal" is quite close to white for them, i'm not sure they gonna be able to make a difference "at-a-glance".
I'm just asking directly to them.
I might be wrong, CCP will need feedback anyway. :)

I've noticed though, that shades of blue is quite good even with colorblind problem, so, i don't know.. i'm just asking to them. :)
John Lawyer
Doomheim
#2049 - 2015-06-23 19:18:05 UTC
Goddam!
I want to fly spaceships and loose tons of them, I want to spent lotta $$$ on them.
But I cant :)
Because these broken icons!
Just roll'em back and make any improvements as long as you want!
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
#2050 - 2015-06-23 19:30:52 UTC
CCP Claymore wrote:
Hey folks,

So we have been chatting about what we can get ready for the next release, Aegis, to try and improve the icon experience.

Drones:

  • We are going to reduce the number of icons for drones and change the icon so it is not similar to a ship icon.

90% scaling:

  • We are going to increase the stroke thickness on icons to improve readability at 90% while retaining fidelity at 100%.

Player/NPC distinction:

  • We are going to increase the fill on NPC ships and for friendly NPC ships add a blue tint.


We have been looking at these changes with the colorblind player in mind and we have looked at them through some simulators, but not being colorblind we really need your feedback if this is helping your experience. Colorblind players please let us know how they look and if they are better.

We should have these up on SISI before the weekend and will be taking all your feedback on board to make these changes as effective as possible before Aegis drops on July 7th.

There will not be any updates to Icons on TQ before July 7th.



What about the mess with cruiser, dread and battleship icon?
Dread looks still like a cruiser and battleships like half a titan....
Darkblad
Doomheim
#2051 - 2015-06-23 19:39:24 UTC
CCP Claymore wrote:
Joe Gormley wrote:
What is the reasoning for blue???

Blue is kind of a special colour in game...


When I say blue, I mean teal maybe?
So probably like this?

NPEISDRIP

Jared Tobin
Bloodstone Industries
B.S.I.
#2052 - 2015-06-23 19:49:00 UTC
CCP Claymore wrote:

We have been looking at these changes with the colorblind player in mind and we have looked at them through some simulators, but not being colorblind we really need your feedback if this is helping your experience. Colorblind players please let us know how they look and if they are better.


Might I suggest visiting the Color Blind Awareness Organization.
They have interesting comparison charts which, if I may suggest, would be handy to keep on file for all art and graphic designers to reference:

http://www.colourblindawareness.org/colour-blindness/

Personally, two friends of mine suffer 2 of the 3 types of color blindness.
The one suffers the most common "deuteranopia" ("red/green" color blindness) which means any color that includes red in it, is "subtracted" in some (or all) level. I've noticed he completely thinks red is brown. He also has mentioned that vegetation is "a mustard brown or yellow" and the "sky is a deep blue".
The other friend has "protanopia" (a slight variant of "red/green") where, oddly, she describes that, on some days the sky is "blue" (to her) but on other days where the sky is tinted/stormy (or dawn/dusk), she has described the sky as "a little like a pink day"...

It "appears", in my experiences and studies, that the most common color that will be seen by "most" will be a variant of blue. There are always exceptions, but in my graphic design jobs in the late 90s, it was imperative to focus on "pure" greens, reds and blues. I am hoping things have changed since then, but even back in '98, I had a program that was able to (at a simple keystroke) switch my entire monitor through various color blindnesses so that I could "see" what colors of things which a company/client wanted to be "highlighted" (or "stand out") to the largest group of potential customers had to be a "commonly shared" color of distinction from the rest of the text/shapes/colors etc.

It's been awhile, and I forget the hexadecimal code, but the best color was somewhere in the blue wavelength areas of the visible light spectrum.

I'm sure there are advances in programs for graphic designers using both RGB and CMYK color preparations on computer monitors these days, but it is a rather basic filtration system program that barely takes up space.

I hope this helps.
Jared Tobin
Bloodstone Industries
B.S.I.
#2053 - 2015-06-23 20:06:59 UTC
Cleanse Serce wrote:
Altrue wrote:

When is there not a problem for colorblind players?

You need to keep in mind that +10, +5 and limited engagement are customizablemeaning if there is any issue they can fix it themselves. That's what customization is for.

Besides, there is a difference between the color of an icon, and the background color of an icon.


Yes that can be customized, they can change color to counter colorblind issues and icone / background color are easily reckoning.

http://i.imgur.com/rE6ZQAX.png?1

But as you can see in this picture i've just made, "teal" is quite close to white for them, i'm not sure they gonna be able to make a difference "at-a-glance".


Actually, that is not true, nor is the image you show accurate. Blue and teal subtract some greens and whites, but the closer you shift from blue, MOST (not all) color blind variants will see a less "deep" blue, and it will be a soft blue or even a not-so-deep "purple/mauve/periwinkle" type of color.

The only way for blue to be white when a person is also unable to differentiate green and red would be for the person to sadly suffer the rarest and most "close to actual definition" of the term "color blindness": total inability to see any color:

"achromatopsia" (monochromacy): the complete inability to see color.

The eyes of "color blind" sufferers also adapt under various conditions. The light around them, are they in a room or outdoors? So they have a window allowing sunlight in while viewing a monitor, or are they in the dark? These do add complications to making a pick of a specific color, as individuals' eyes learn to adapt to sometimes shift the color interpretation differently than they "normally" see color shifts.

That would be the only reason, in my mind for utilitarian purposes only, to need slider RGB adjustments: so that people can adjust the colors to their own perceived light.

I believe this is discussed on the site I mentioned in my previous response, with the adjustments and variations upon light conditions and color perception changes on the several Color Blindness sites, especially Wikipedia's page of Color Blindess, subsection on perception and DESIGN IMPLICATIONS.
Cleanse Serce
Lonesome Capsuleer
#2054 - 2015-06-23 20:25:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Cleanse Serce
Jared Tobin wrote:
Actually, that is not true, nor is the image you show accurate. Blue and teal subtract some greens and whites, but the closer you shift from blue, MOST (not all) color blind variants will see a less "deep" blue, and it will be a soft blue or even a not-so-deep "purple/mauve/periwinkle" type of color.

The only way for blue to be white when a person is also unable to differentiate green and red would be for the person to sadly suffer the rarest and most "close to actual definition" of the term "color blindness": total inability to see any color:

"achromatopsia" (monochromacy): the complete inability to see color.

The eyes of "color blind" sufferers also adapt under various conditions. The light around them, are they in a room or outdoors? So they have a window allowing sunlight in while viewing a monitor, or are they in the dark? These do add complications to making a pick of a specific color, as individuals' eyes learn to adapt to sometimes shift the color interpretation differently than they "normally" see color shifts.

That would be the only reason, in my mind for utilitarian purposes only, to need slider RGB adjustments: so that people can adjust the colors to their own perceived light.

I believe this is discussed on the site I mentioned in my previous response, with the adjustments and variations upon light conditions and color perception changes on the several Color Blindness sites, especially Wikipedia's page of Color Blindess, subsection on perception and DESIGN IMPLICATIONS.
What is not 'true' ?
I'm saying so many things.

"Teal is close to white" don't mean "Teal is white".
The image i show is accurate, that's a color filter used in graphics to precisely see what colorblind people would see.
I know the filter can't be 100% accurate cause each and every colorblinds have their own strength but it gives an idea to the designer.
I might even add that colorblind people can distinguish more shades in yellows and blues that we not-colorblind people see because they live with and learnt to.
Just like Greenland true people would see way more shades in the whites than us.

I'm agree, best thing would be to have RGB sliders, but as i said before, since they took that away from us with the UI re-vamp, i'm afraid it won't happen anytime soon, if ever.

So best thing is to ask them if this teal tint on NPC is changing anything at all or not.
My belief is, i might be wrong, that in the heat of a battle, if ever it happen near friendly NPCs, this 'teal tint' might be too 'light' for them to distinguish from white shapes clutter. (even if that's light grey more than white, anyway)..

Darkblad wrote:
CCP Claymore wrote:
Joe Gormley wrote:
What is the reasoning for blue???

Blue is kind of a special colour in game...


When I say blue, I mean teal maybe?
So probably like this?
Yes that's how i understood CCP Claymore.
Lexiana Del'Amore
Nouvelle Rouvenor
#2055 - 2015-06-23 20:37:46 UTC
Please please please make the next change as customizable as possible...

People will be able to set up icons to their own tastes and will love you for it...

Add classic X icon in the package aswell plz
Eraza
Fuzzyness Enterprizes
#2056 - 2015-06-23 20:43:34 UTC
Darkblad wrote:
CCP Claymore wrote:
Joe Gormley wrote:
What is the reasoning for blue???

Blue is kind of a special colour in game...


When I say blue, I mean teal maybe?
So probably like this?

This looks a lot clearer :)
Although I dont think we will see all that many npc capsules :)
Jared Tobin
Bloodstone Industries
B.S.I.
#2057 - 2015-06-23 21:07:18 UTC
Cleanse Serce wrote:
Jared Tobin wrote:
Actually, that is not true, nor is the image you show accurate. Blue and teal subtract some greens and whites, but the closer you shift from blue, MOST (not all) color blind variants will see a less "deep" blue, and it will be a soft blue or even a not-so-deep "purple/mauve/periwinkle" type of color.
What is not 'true' ?
I'm saying so many things.
You are saying so many things.
I believe it was specifically:

"But as you can see in this picture i've just made, "teal" is quite close to white for them, i'm not sure they gonna be able to make a difference "at-a-glance"."

I was looking at your example and compared the actual color to the Color ("Colour" - apologies to non-US english folks) Blindness Organization's charts at the bottom of this page.

Your "teal" translating to the 2 examples you illustrate appears (using a color dropper measuring tool) to be a slightly lighter "gray" of the "gray" background you included which seemed less accurate compared to the Organization's example.

I suppose I'm comparing your "Teal" to their "pencil example". For that purpose, I "shifted" your "teal" closest to the color of the "2nd from left pencil" in their comparative "Pencil" example. If you notice, the color of an off-blue ("teal") shifts to a grayer tone of that color into the violet range, but it still retains more color than your picture example displays. Hey, no worries, it may have been in the saving of your color table in the file of your example.

That is all. No offense intended. Don't worry, I will not expound on the scrutiny of your example any further.

This really needs to be left now in the hands (and eyes) of Dev CCP Claymore and his ilk.

Bottom line: the "blues" (wavelengths) of the spectrum are the best bet for most color blind people when thinking of redesigning, if custom RGB sliders are not "doable".

The only reason one color blind friend of mine (who plays EVE - well, he's currently "paused from playing" until the icons are changed because he) was able to mission run and quickly note any "red" unfriendly NPCs was due to their cross-hair shapes, thicknesses, and the fact that they were completely different from other real player ships (brackets at the time). One thing was for sure: he certainly knew when a wreck was marked "for anyone to take/open/salvage". He also knew CONCORD immediately because they were thick white crosshairs, but with a central "hole" in the middle. And broadcasting/"tagging" items were a big help when fleeted. Currently I'm saddened he is remaining docked, just training until some changes are made to the icons. Sadly, that has had a quasi-deleterious effect on the rest of us not wishing to "play" in space without his company. I'm sure this scenario is not isolated nor unique.
Cleanse Serce
Lonesome Capsuleer
#2058 - 2015-06-23 21:19:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Cleanse Serce
Jared Tobin wrote:

I suppose I'm comparing your "Teal" to their "pencil example". For that purpose, I "shifted" your "teal" closest to the color of the "2nd from left pencil" in their comparative "Pencil" example. If you notice, the color of an off-blue ("teal") shifts to a grayer tone of that color into the violet range, but it still retains more color than your picture example displays. Hey, no worries, it may have been in the saving of your color table in the file of your example.

That is all. No offense intended. Don't worry, I will not expound on the scrutiny of your example any further.

This really needs to be left now in the hands (and eyes) of Dev CCP Claymore and his ilk.

Bottom line: the "blues" (wavelengths) of the spectrum are the best bet for most color blind people when thinking of redesigning, if custom RGB sliders are not "doable".

Yes, that's what i was saying as well, it depends a lot of the environment, in space (mostly black background) mixed with other brackets / color tags (corp/alliance/engagements), targetting boxes, etcetera, it might be to light to distinguish the difference for them.
Same difference between my example and your pencils = environment matters.

I can't wait to have their feedbacks when it comes live on SiSI ! :)
Joe Gormley
Nemo Modicus Group
#2059 - 2015-06-23 21:25:44 UTC
Red and Blue have meaning in game... Any colour but these or shades of these, else this icon mess up becomes a standings mess up and where the hell it going to end..

The old icons may have had limitations but there was a degree of logic rather than this make it up as we go along approach...

I tell you what, lets scrap the existing game and start again, then plenty of work for the arty folx....

Miss the DEV team that took the time to listen and fix the issues...

Quality over Quantity every time..

Remove the Icons as no fit for purpose!!

Mister Ripley
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2060 - 2015-06-23 21:49:17 UTC
Cruisers/Battlecruisers and Battleship icons should be swaped.