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[AEGIS] Fleet Warp Changes - Please see devblog!

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Elsa Hayes
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1641 - 2015-06-19 00:24:33 UTC
A55 Burger wrote:
Elsa Hayes wrote:


And as of 80 pages "negative" feedback, I see mostly alts and minor scrubs like myself posting against it except I am not against it, I am in favor still does not change that I am a minor scrub none the less while the guys from the major alliance and a lot of vets who actually still know how things used to be a couple of years back are very much in favor of the change.




Please, feel free to tabulate such things, and get back to us. Discounting 80 pages of posts by hand-waving it away as "alts and scrubs" isn't really a cogent argument.

*I'm sure CCP is capable of sorting out who the scrubs are. I imagine they have a spreadsheet or two. Possibly even a database.


If you think it is important to you but you do not even have the balls to post with your mains what does that show the world?
Since I am in favor I can happily hide behind an alt without being an hypocrite. Since 80 pages of alts refused to show even that much of sincerity why should CCP care?
A55 Burger
Weiland Yutani Corporation
#1642 - 2015-06-19 00:49:51 UTC  |  Edited by: A55 Burger
Elsa Hayes wrote:
A55 Burger wrote:
Elsa Hayes wrote:


And as of 80 pages "negative" feedback, I see mostly alts and minor scrubs like myself posting against it except I am not against it, I am in favor still does not change that I am a minor scrub none the less while the guys from the major alliance and a lot of vets who actually still know how things used to be a couple of years back are very much in favor of the change.




Please, feel free to tabulate such things, and get back to us. Discounting 80 pages of posts by hand-waving it away as "alts and scrubs" isn't really a cogent argument.

*I'm sure CCP is capable of sorting out who the scrubs are. I imagine they have a spreadsheet or two. Possibly even a database.


If you think it is important to you but you do not even have the balls to post with your mains what does that show the world?
Since I am in favor I can happily hide behind an alt without being an hypocrite. Since 80 pages of alts refused to show even that much of sincerity why should CCP care?



Your opinion is duly noted. It's not you that has the power to make any changes to the game, and if you did, I wouldn't play it. The discussion is about changes to the game, not who someone's main is. Argue with the message, not the man.
Thanks for playing!
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1643 - 2015-06-19 00:53:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
A55 Burger wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
Somehow I don't think subscription income works the way people think.

This type of change is bold, and it might seem to mean fewer vet subs, and then EVE will die. But consider the possibility that most of EVE's subscription / real money income is from baddies buying PLEX.

So the income reality might actually be the opposite of what you think--less pressure on PLEX means lower ISK value on market, which means baddies will buy more PLEX to have the same amount of ISK, assuming their ISK spending stays the same.

It's a nice thought that EVE is being revamped for the sake of pure gameplay, subscriptions be damned... but that's unrealistic.



An amusing, relevant quote.

Jayne: "Can't get paid if you crawl away like a little bitty bug, neither. I got a share in this job. Ten percent of nothing is—let me do the math here. Nothing into nothin'. Carry the nothin'..."

Independents won't know any different, I think it will miss them for the most part.

Players who understand what's going on in space around them should like the removal of piloting automation. I hope drone assist is next to go. Yes, completely.

Suggestions for balancing grid warp, which will still be a problem:

make warp require more capacitor
warp fatigue

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
A55 Burger
Weiland Yutani Corporation
#1644 - 2015-06-19 00:57:38 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:

Independents won't know any different, I think it will miss them for the most part.

Players who understand what's going on in space around them should like the removal of piloting automation. I hope drone assist is next to go. Yes, completely.


Yes, more of this arguing with the man, not the message. Automation is bad, sure. Deciding to make changes without actually playing the game being changed is even worse. This is what these threads are for, is to discuss what's being changed. Not to demand to know who people are. CCP knows what accounts I have... and I'm pretty sure they ignore all this "Post with your main" nonsense accordingly.

A55 Burger
Weiland Yutani Corporation
#1645 - 2015-06-19 01:02:39 UTC
The point I'm making Rain, is that you know more about what should change in the game than CCP does. I'm not going to speak as to how much more, because that's between me, you, and the fence post.

This shouldn't be the case. Developers of the game should be able to utilize the vast data collection tools at their disposal, as well as experiences with the game itself at all levels in order to effectively steer it.

This doesn't happen.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1646 - 2015-06-19 01:04:25 UTC
A55 Burger wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:

Independents won't know any different, I think it will miss them for the most part.

Players who understand what's going on in space around them should like the removal of piloting automation. I hope drone assist is next to go. Yes, completely.


Yes, more of this arguing with the man, not the message. Automation is bad, sure. Deciding to make changes without actually playing the game being changed is even worse. This is what these threads are for, is to discuss what's being changed. Not to demand to know who people are. CCP knows what accounts I have... and I'm pretty sure they ignore all this "Post with your main" nonsense accordingly.



They do play the game, just not on their old accounts.
A55 Burger
Weiland Yutani Corporation
#1647 - 2015-06-19 01:07:24 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
A55 Burger wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:

Independents won't know any different, I think it will miss them for the most part.

Players who understand what's going on in space around them should like the removal of piloting automation. I hope drone assist is next to go. Yes, completely.


Yes, more of this arguing with the man, not the message. Automation is bad, sure. Deciding to make changes without actually playing the game being changed is even worse. This is what these threads are for, is to discuss what's being changed. Not to demand to know who people are. CCP knows what accounts I have... and I'm pretty sure they ignore all this "Post with your main" nonsense accordingly.



They do play the game, just not on their old accounts.


I don't think they do at all levels. It stopped being fun for them when they couldn't create items out of thin air, and if you aren't getting paid for something related to your job, you're not going to spend that long doing it.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1648 - 2015-06-19 01:13:34 UTC
A55 Burger wrote:


I don't think they do at all levels.


Doesn't matter what you think, fact is they do play EVE. The other fact is that the CSM support this change too.
A55 Burger
Weiland Yutani Corporation
#1649 - 2015-06-19 01:21:25 UTC  |  Edited by: A55 Burger
baltec1 wrote:
A55 Burger wrote:


I don't think they do at all levels.


Doesn't matter what you think, fact is they do play EVE. The other fact is that the CSM support this change too.


This is somewhat a fair point. However, it doesn't matter what any of us 'think'. What matters is the almighty dollar, and after spending probably 5K USD on this game over the last 7 years, the nature of their disconnect from what many players think is what alarms me. Call it my experiences with another MMO making sweeping changes without long contemplation.

Removing all the ship commands is a pretty sweeping change, and has me contemplating walking away from the whole mess.

I like game changes, as long as they are for a reason that makes sense. Changing how every ship in the game operates to address one ship class is absurd. Perhaps that isn't the real reason for the change, but if that's the case, that process should be transparent.

*Lots of people play this game for relatively narrow segments of gameplay. What would you do without the Megathron?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1650 - 2015-06-19 01:32:08 UTC
A55 Burger wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
A55 Burger wrote:


I don't think they do at all levels.


Doesn't matter what you think, fact is they do play EVE. The other fact is that the CSM support this change too.


This is somewhat a fair point. However, it doesn't matter what any of us 'think'. What matters is the almighty dollar, and after spending probably 5K USD on this game over the last 7 years, the nature of their disconnect from what many players think is what alarms me. Call it my experiences with another MMO making sweeping changes without long contemplation.

Removing all the ship commands is a pretty sweeping change, and has me contemplating walking away from the whole mess.

I like game changes, as long as they are for a reason that makes sense. Changing how every ship in the game operates to address one ship class is absurd. Perhaps that isn't the real reason for the change, but if that's the case, that process should be transparent.


They aren't removing orbit, approach and the like any time soon. This is another example of CCP saying something and people going off the deep end thinking they said something else. The only change happening is the fleet warp nerf as specified in the OP, nothing more. This change simply means you need to use dedicated scouts like we used to, nothing more. All of this talk of having to stagger warps in mixed fleets is nonsense. As is the view this is aimed only at bombers, CCP gave bombers as just one example of a fleet that would need to alter its tactics a bit.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1651 - 2015-06-19 01:33:51 UTC
A55 Burger wrote:
[quote=baltec1][quote=A55 Burger]


*Lots of people play this game for relatively narrow segments of gameplay. What would you do without the Megathron?


Fly another ship.
A55 Burger
Weiland Yutani Corporation
#1652 - 2015-06-19 01:36:21 UTC  |  Edited by: A55 Burger
baltec1 wrote:
A55 Burger wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
A55 Burger wrote:


I don't think they do at all levels.


Doesn't matter what you think, fact is they do play EVE. The other fact is that the CSM support this change too.


This is somewhat a fair point. However, it doesn't matter what any of us 'think'. What matters is the almighty dollar, and after spending probably 5K USD on this game over the last 7 years, the nature of their disconnect from what many players think is what alarms me. Call it my experiences with another MMO making sweeping changes without long contemplation.

Removing all the ship commands is a pretty sweeping change, and has me contemplating walking away from the whole mess.

I like game changes, as long as they are for a reason that makes sense. Changing how every ship in the game operates to address one ship class is absurd. Perhaps that isn't the real reason for the change, but if that's the case, that process should be transparent.


They aren't removing orbit, approach and the like any time soon. This is another example of CCP saying something and people going off the deep end thinking they said something else. The only change happening is the fleet warp nerf as specified in the OP, nothing more. This change simply means you need to use dedicated scouts like we used to, nothing more. All of this talk of having to stagger warps in mixed fleets is nonsense. As is the view this is aimed only at bombers, CCP gave bombers as just one example of a fleet that would need to alter its tactics a bit.



I'm not concerned with the 'when' of future changes, I'm simply so dissatisfied with the direction of the game (this change being one point, the future change being the other) that I'm talking about it, as are many others.

It's almost as if the developers think there is some magic pool of customers out there just waiting to play the game, but they won't jump in just yet. I don't know if that's the case. The proliferation of these types of games is why I think this. Once, Eve had virtually no competition. This isn't the case anymore.

For the most part, the customers they have and have had are it. For this game to remain engaging, those players need to play it.
A55 Burger
Weiland Yutani Corporation
#1653 - 2015-06-19 01:42:30 UTC  |  Edited by: A55 Burger
baltec1 wrote:


They aren't removing orbit, approach and the like any time soon. This is another example of CCP saying something and people going off the deep end thinking they said something else. The only change happening is the fleet warp nerf as specified in the OP, nothing more. This change simply means you need to use dedicated scouts like we used to, nothing more. All of this talk of having to stagger warps in mixed fleets is nonsense. As is the view this is aimed only at bombers, CCP gave bombers as just one example of a fleet that would need to alter its tactics a bit.



The best way I can articulate why I'm worried is the boiling frogs syndrome. The water just seems... warmer to me... you know?


*At any rate, I've said what I need to say. I didn't come here to go back and forth with whoever happens to be reading the thread at the time, and in just a minute, it will be another, and another. My opinion has been recorded, however unimportant some may perceive it to be. It's not like I'm having a conversation with the people who make these changes in here. I'm stating my position on the one place I have to put it.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1654 - 2015-06-19 01:47:22 UTC
A55 Burger wrote:


The best way I can articulate why I'm worried is the boiling frogs syndrome. The water just seems... warmer to me... you know?


As one of those old timers who remembers what it was like before we got all of these fancy fleet broadcasts the water has gone from freezing to just cold. I expect a few other changes such as on grid warping going from 150km to at least 200km and I hope repair broadcasts becoming squad only.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1655 - 2015-06-19 01:55:30 UTC
A55 Burger wrote:
The point I'm making Rain, is that you know more about what should change in the game than CCP does. I'm not going to speak as to how much more, because that's between me, you, and the fence post.

This shouldn't be the case. Developers of the game should be able to utilize the vast data collection tools at their disposal, as well as experiences with the game itself at all levels in order to effectively steer it.

This doesn't happen.

I've said the same thing in the past. When gameplay is this deep, you begin to lose touch as a developer. At the same time it's odd that EVE has managed to iterate on itself so little.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
A55 Burger
Weiland Yutani Corporation
#1656 - 2015-06-19 01:59:45 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
A55 Burger wrote:
The point I'm making Rain, is that you know more about what should change in the game than CCP does. I'm not going to speak as to how much more, because that's between me, you, and the fence post.

This shouldn't be the case. Developers of the game should be able to utilize the vast data collection tools at their disposal, as well as experiences with the game itself at all levels in order to effectively steer it.

This doesn't happen.

I've said the same thing in the past. When gameplay is this deep, you begin to lose touch as a developer. At the same time it's odd that EVE has managed to iterate on itself so little.


I agree completely. That's why I feel a change that affects so many boxes of gameplay shouldn't happen. Small tweaks, not sledgehammers. They changed the release cycle so they could do this.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#1657 - 2015-06-19 02:01:19 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
A55 Burger wrote:
The point I'm making Rain, is that you know more about what should change in the game than CCP does. I'm not going to speak as to how much more, because that's between me, you, and the fence post.

This shouldn't be the case. Developers of the game should be able to utilize the vast data collection tools at their disposal, as well as experiences with the game itself at all levels in order to effectively steer it.

This doesn't happen.

I've said the same thing in the past. When gameplay is this deep, you begin to lose touch as a developer. At the same time it's odd that EVE has managed to iterate on itself so little.



Larrikin only went from player to developer a few months ago

I doubt he has lost much insight
A55 Burger
Weiland Yutani Corporation
#1658 - 2015-06-19 02:05:55 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:



Larrikin only went from player to developer a few months ago

I doubt he has lost much insight


This is helpful, actually. It doesn't change my feelings on the overall direction, but it does make things a little less schizophrenic. Thanks!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1659 - 2015-06-19 02:10:55 UTC
A55 Burger wrote:


I agree completely. That's why I feel a change that affects so many boxes of gameplay shouldn't happen. Small tweaks, not sledgehammers. They changed the release cycle so they could do this.


This is a small change.
Harry Saq
Of Tears and ISK
ISK.Net
#1660 - 2015-06-19 02:14:59 UTC
While I commented on the hilarity of the intended effect vs the real effect, I must say this change is minor, and part of some bells and whistles that there was a time we never had. When things are too easy it just isn't fun, and dropping an armada right on top of someone at will is probably a bit too easy.