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Battlecruisers: Projection Role Bonus
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James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#261 - 2015-06-17 19:49:10 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:


Sniper/long range fits are not supposed to fit heavy tank, much less something so crazy as a 3200 plate. 3200 plate is an absurd idea anyway, given the thread is about battle cruisers.


@stitch: what does that cpu consumption increase to with the rest of the fit? Tracking comps, mag stabs, mwd/mjd, etc? Not with my computer right now so idk. IIRC, once the rest the fit is on there it gets pretty tight.


Irregardless, why are we discussing battleship fitting and giant plates over battle cruisers and projection? If bc's need more tank than a more appropriate fix Is a class wide buff to dominant tank hp, armor or shield, and a slight increase to base speed. Then put that role bonus of increased optimal or fall off or w/e into the hull, giving like, 3 free tracking enhancers. 3200 plates hardly fix bc's.


3200s are an idea that crept from one of the things I thunked up one night. They would be just usable by BCs with a short range weapon system fit, and would about double the base armor HP of a battlecruiser for one slot with heavy trade offs. Sounds kind of like several cruisers and 1600 plates, right?

As for why, it was a tangent based on a comment about fitting long range guns, which need some work on minni battlecruisers. as with long range t2 guns the PG/ CPU used is quite high, but is absolutely insane on artillery.

At all 5s
Hurricane w/ 6 t2 720s: 356cpu and 67PG remain, a whopping 327 DPS with quake.
Brutix w/ 6 T2 250mm rails: 355CPU and 284PG remain
Ferrox w/ 6 T2 250mm rails: 449CPU and 439PG remain
Brutix w/ 6 T2 Heavy beams: 302 CPU and 442PG remain

Slight discrepency there, eh?

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#262 - 2015-06-17 20:01:26 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:


Sniper/long range fits are not supposed to fit heavy tank, much less something so crazy as a 3200 plate. 3200 plate is an absurd idea anyway, given the thread is about battle cruisers.


@stitch: what does that cpu consumption increase to with the rest of the fit? Tracking comps, mag stabs, mwd/mjd, etc? Not with my computer right now so idk. IIRC, once the rest the fit is on there it gets pretty tight.


Irregardless, why are we discussing battleship fitting and giant plates over battle cruisers and projection? If bc's need more tank than a more appropriate fix Is a class wide buff to dominant tank hp, armor or shield, and a slight increase to base speed. Then put that role bonus of increased optimal or fall off or w/e into the hull, giving like, 3 free tracking enhancers. 3200 plates hardly fix bc's.


3200s are an idea that crept from one of the things I thunked up one night. They would be just usable by BCs with a short range weapon system fit, and would about double the base armor HP of a battlecruiser for one slot with heavy trade offs. Sounds kind of like several cruisers and 1600 plates, right?

As for why, it was a tangent based on a comment about fitting long range guns, which need some work on minni battlecruisers. as with long range t2 guns the PG/ CPU used is quite high, but is absolutely insane on artillery.

At all 5s
Hurricane w/ 6 t2 720s: 356cpu and 67PG remain, a whopping 327 DPS with quake.
Brutix w/ 6 T2 250mm rails: 355CPU and 284PG remain
Ferrox w/ 6 T2 250mm rails: 449CPU and 439PG remain
Brutix w/ 6 T2 Heavy beams: 302 CPU and 442PG remain

Slight discrepency there, eh?


Fun fact: such mods would require either a high fitting cost + fitting rebalance on all BC+ hulls or a limit a la MJD to prevent ships like, oh I don't know, let's say an Ishtar from fitting it.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#263 - 2015-06-17 22:07:18 UTC
James Baboli wrote:


At all 5s
Hurricane w/ 6 t2 720s: 356cpu and 67PG remain, a whopping 327 DPS with quake.
Brutix w/ 6 T2 250mm rails: 355CPU and 284PG remain
Ferrox w/ 6 T2 250mm rails: 449CPU and 439PG remain
Brutix w/ 6 T2 Heavy beams: 302 CPU and 442PG remain

Slight discrepency there, eh?



You will never hear me say Arty PG requirements are reasonable lol

3200mm plate, if it were to become a thing, is something that in my opinion should be a BS class mod only, whether by class restriction or fitting cost. That's a HUGE benefit for one slot.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#264 - 2015-06-17 22:20:22 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
James Baboli wrote:


At all 5s
Hurricane w/ 6 t2 720s: 356cpu and 67PG remain, a whopping 327 DPS with quake.
Brutix w/ 6 T2 250mm rails: 355CPU and 284PG remain
Ferrox w/ 6 T2 250mm rails: 449CPU and 439PG remain
Brutix w/ 6 T2 Heavy beams: 302 CPU and 442PG remain

Slight discrepency there, eh?



You will never hear me say Arty PG requirements are reasonable lol

3200mm plate, if it were to become a thing, is something that in my opinion should be a BS class mod only, whether by class restriction or fitting cost. That's a HUGE benefit for one slot.


It kinda has to be class specific or they will end up on Ishtars for example.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#265 - 2015-06-17 22:22:12 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
James Baboli wrote:


At all 5s
Hurricane w/ 6 t2 720s: 356cpu and 67PG remain, a whopping 327 DPS with quake.
Brutix w/ 6 T2 250mm rails: 355CPU and 284PG remain
Ferrox w/ 6 T2 250mm rails: 449CPU and 439PG remain
Brutix w/ 6 T2 Heavy beams: 302 CPU and 442PG remain

Slight discrepency there, eh?



You will never hear me say Arty PG requirements are reasonable lol

3200mm plate, if it were to become a thing, is something that in my opinion should be a BS class mod only, whether by class restriction or fitting cost. That's a HUGE benefit for one slot.


The proposed 3200mm plate had 1438PG. This is, as I said, just barely in reach of a BC with short range guns.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#266 - 2015-06-17 22:43:05 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:


Sniper/long range fits are not supposed to fit heavy tank, much less something so crazy as a 3200 plate. 3200 plate is an absurd idea anyway, given the thread is about battle cruisers.


@stitch: what does that cpu consumption increase to with the rest of the fit? Tracking comps, mag stabs, mwd/mjd, etc? Not with my computer right now so idk. IIRC, once the rest the fit is on there it gets pretty tight.


Irregardless, why are we discussing battleship fitting and giant plates over battle cruisers and projection? If bc's need more tank than a more appropriate fix Is a class wide buff to dominant tank hp, armor or shield, and a slight increase to base speed. Then put that role bonus of increased optimal or fall off or w/e into the hull, giving like, 3 free tracking enhancers. 3200 plates hardly fix bc's.


3200s are an idea that crept from one of the things I thunked up one night. They would be just usable by BCs with a short range weapon system fit, and would about double the base armor HP of a battlecruiser for one slot with heavy trade offs. Sounds kind of like several cruisers and 1600 plates, right?

As for why, it was a tangent based on a comment about fitting long range guns, which need some work on minni battlecruisers. as with long range t2 guns the PG/ CPU used is quite high, but is absolutely insane on artillery.

At all 5s
Hurricane w/ 6 t2 720s: 356cpu and 67PG remain, a whopping 327 DPS with quake.
Brutix w/ 6 T2 250mm rails: 355CPU and 284PG remain
Ferrox w/ 6 T2 250mm rails: 449CPU and 439PG remain
Brutix w/ 6 T2 Heavy beams: 302 CPU and 442PG remain

Slight discrepency there, eh?


Fun fact: such mods would require either a high fitting cost + fitting rebalance on all BC+ hulls or a limit a la MJD to prevent ships like, oh I don't know, let's say an Ishtar from fitting it.

Would be fine with an ishtar nuking it's mobility, and running a minimum of 3 fitting mods to fit a plate which more than doubles it's mass and eats most of it's grid.

11,100,000 kg base for ishtars
15,000,000 kg for the proposed 3200mm plate

Yeah, that'd go really fast. It is now appropriate prey for a battleships.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#267 - 2015-06-17 22:47:01 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:


Sniper/long range fits are not supposed to fit heavy tank, much less something so crazy as a 3200 plate. 3200 plate is an absurd idea anyway, given the thread is about battle cruisers.


@stitch: what does that cpu consumption increase to with the rest of the fit? Tracking comps, mag stabs, mwd/mjd, etc? Not with my computer right now so idk. IIRC, once the rest the fit is on there it gets pretty tight.


Irregardless, why are we discussing battleship fitting and giant plates over battle cruisers and projection? If bc's need more tank than a more appropriate fix Is a class wide buff to dominant tank hp, armor or shield, and a slight increase to base speed. Then put that role bonus of increased optimal or fall off or w/e into the hull, giving like, 3 free tracking enhancers. 3200 plates hardly fix bc's.


3200s are an idea that crept from one of the things I thunked up one night. They would be just usable by BCs with a short range weapon system fit, and would about double the base armor HP of a battlecruiser for one slot with heavy trade offs. Sounds kind of like several cruisers and 1600 plates, right?

As for why, it was a tangent based on a comment about fitting long range guns, which need some work on minni battlecruisers. as with long range t2 guns the PG/ CPU used is quite high, but is absolutely insane on artillery.

At all 5s
Hurricane w/ 6 t2 720s: 356cpu and 67PG remain, a whopping 327 DPS with quake.
Brutix w/ 6 T2 250mm rails: 355CPU and 284PG remain
Ferrox w/ 6 T2 250mm rails: 449CPU and 439PG remain
Brutix w/ 6 T2 Heavy beams: 302 CPU and 442PG remain

Slight discrepency there, eh?


Fun fact: such mods would require either a high fitting cost + fitting rebalance on all BC+ hulls or a limit a la MJD to prevent ships like, oh I don't know, let's say an Ishtar from fitting it.

Would be fine with an ishtar nuking it's mobility, and running a minimum of 3 fitting mods to fit a plate which more than doubles it's mass and eats most of it's grid.

11,100,000 kg base for ishtars
15,000,000 kg for the proposed 3200mm plate

Yeah, that'd go really fast. It is now appropriate prey for a battleships.


I was expecting it to be closer to double the fitting of a 1600 than triple. I just wonder which BS has the room to fit that without having to jump on the fitting mod train. If it takes a fitting mod for it to be fittable, you just changed the 2 paltes into 1 plate and 1 fitting mod. Short range BS have the ~300 additionnal required PG to fit it over 2 1600? What about BC?
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#268 - 2015-06-17 22:56:36 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:


Sniper/long range fits are not supposed to fit heavy tank, much less something so crazy as a 3200 plate. 3200 plate is an absurd idea anyway, given the thread is about battle cruisers.


@stitch: what does that cpu consumption increase to with the rest of the fit? Tracking comps, mag stabs, mwd/mjd, etc? Not with my computer right now so idk. IIRC, once the rest the fit is on there it gets pretty tight.


Irregardless, why are we discussing battleship fitting and giant plates over battle cruisers and projection? If bc's need more tank than a more appropriate fix Is a class wide buff to dominant tank hp, armor or shield, and a slight increase to base speed. Then put that role bonus of increased optimal or fall off or w/e into the hull, giving like, 3 free tracking enhancers. 3200 plates hardly fix bc's.


3200s are an idea that crept from one of the things I thunked up one night. They would be just usable by BCs with a short range weapon system fit, and would about double the base armor HP of a battlecruiser for one slot with heavy trade offs. Sounds kind of like several cruisers and 1600 plates, right?

As for why, it was a tangent based on a comment about fitting long range guns, which need some work on minni battlecruisers. as with long range t2 guns the PG/ CPU used is quite high, but is absolutely insane on artillery.

At all 5s
Hurricane w/ 6 t2 720s: 356cpu and 67PG remain, a whopping 327 DPS with quake.
Brutix w/ 6 T2 250mm rails: 355CPU and 284PG remain
Ferrox w/ 6 T2 250mm rails: 449CPU and 439PG remain
Brutix w/ 6 T2 Heavy beams: 302 CPU and 442PG remain

Slight discrepency there, eh?


Fun fact: such mods would require either a high fitting cost + fitting rebalance on all BC+ hulls or a limit a la MJD to prevent ships like, oh I don't know, let's say an Ishtar from fitting it.

Would be fine with an ishtar nuking it's mobility, and running a minimum of 3 fitting mods to fit a plate which more than doubles it's mass and eats most of it's grid.

11,100,000 kg base for ishtars
15,000,000 kg for the proposed 3200mm plate

Yeah, that'd go really fast. It is now appropriate prey for a battleships.


I was expecting it to be closer to double the fitting of a 1600 than triple. I just wonder which BS has the room to fit that without having to jump on the fitting mod train. If it takes a fitting mod for it to be fittable, you just changed the 2 paltes into 1 plate and 1 fitting mod. Short range BS have the ~300 additionnal required PG to fit it over 2 1600? What about BC?

On a BC, it requires perfect skills and implants to fit without fitting mods on a cane with dual 180s (best PG after guns). On brawler BS, some can slap that and a 1600 if they downsize to the mid tier guns, while a single fitting mod means you can slap one of those onto almost any battleship except tach or arty fits.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#269 - 2015-06-17 23:09:35 UTC
So again, bc's and projection?

Just like cruiser hulls, a plate so large would destroy any mobility the Bc class enjoys. I would still lean toward a slight hp buff, and a rebalance of arty

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#270 - 2015-06-17 23:35:29 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
So again, bc's and projection?

Just like cruiser hulls, a plate so large would destroy any mobility the Bc class enjoys. I would still lean toward a slight hp buff, and a rebalance of arty

I agree with the HP buff. 4.7% HP boost to the primary tank and 2.5% boost to the secondary tank and a 2% boost to tertiary (mostly hull) seems about right to me, which brings up the native EHP back towards the gap enjoyed pre-odyssey, without as much of a PG and cap gap and less mobility.

This brings us back to projection.

Personally, I feel a ~ 50% projection bonus is appropriate on all the turret BCs, with missiles around a 40% flight time bonus and drone boats getting a medium and light drone speed bonus.

And yes, flight time. With the new missile computers, flight time bonuses and ROF bonuses will be extra powerful due to the ability to potentially inflict stacked volleys via time on target.

Also, unlock the drake somewhat, with a slightly weaker bonus to the other types of missiles.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Sh00ter McGavin
Barr None
#271 - 2015-06-18 07:55:38 UTC
Love it. Absolutely love it. +1
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#272 - 2015-06-18 14:44:41 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
So again, bc's and projection?

Just like cruiser hulls, a plate so large would destroy any mobility the Bc class enjoys. I would st. l lean toward a slight hp buff, and a rebalance of arty

I agree with the HP buff. 4.7% HP boost to the primary tank and 2.5% boost to the secondary tank and a 2% boost to tertiary (mostly hull) seems about right to me, which brings up the native EHP back towards the gap enjoyed pre-odyssey, without as much of a PG and cap gap and less mobility.

This brings us back to projection.

Personally, I feel a ~ 50% projection bonus is appropriate on all the turret BCs, with missiles around a 40% flight time bonus and drone boats getting a medium and light drone speed bonus.

And yes, flight time. With the new missile computers, flight time bonuses and ROF bonuses will be extra powerful due to the ability to potentially inflict stacked volleys via time on target.

Also, unlock the drake somewhat, with a slightly weaker bonus to the other types of missiles.


While im not opposed to a 40% projection bonus to missiles as the logic sound. The fact is missiles will still apply poorly whether they can shoot out to 20-30km for HAMS, or 60-95km for HML. Unless you have a rapier/huginn/loki.

Missile enhancers are coming out which is great, i dont think missile bonuses really need a rework. I guess depending on how good the MTE/MTCs are, will determine if i drop my TP or not. Or make some uber application fit HML nighthawk, since it has extra low.

I do like the drake idea though. Kind of like a big hookbill or nosprey. However, if the navy drake wasnt garbage, that would make that hull more desirable and the drake wouldnt need much tweaking.

Navy drake needs to have a utility high. Its a freakin BC that has a bonus to links, but cant even fit them with its weapon system. Dropping a launcher means youll do even less dps than a t1 drake. I really hope they tweak it, i like the bonuses, but one should be a role bonus. That way the other trait can be a RoF or dmg bonus and it can drop a launcher and finally have a utility high.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#273 - 2015-06-21 01:59:34 UTC
I thought of another options for BC's with mostly the Hurricane in mind since it's the second weakest T1 BC in the current meta behind the drake. In my honest opinion I believe the current Role Bonus on the T1 BC to be fine as is and the Optimal Role bonus should be added to the Faction BC's. That been said I also believe the current T1 BCs should indeed have some kind of projection, so I propose that CCP should reconfigure their base BC skill level attributes. Using the Hurricane as an example, something like this:

Revised Hurricane
Minmatar Battlecruiser bonuses (per skill level):
7.5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire
7.5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret falloff
Role Bonus:
• Can fit Warfare Link modules


Revised Hurricane Fleet Issue
Minmatar Battlecruiser bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage
7.5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret tracking speed
Role Bonus:
• 50% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret falloff
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#274 - 2015-06-21 21:45:03 UTC
We're saved bois - 110km Talwars & Jackdaws coming to a REAL server near you.

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#275 - 2015-06-22 02:26:05 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
We're saved bois - 110km Talwars & Jackdaws coming to a REAL server near you.


Good thing neither can point that far.


Looks like they've posted more new stuff for upcoming patch... put nothing on BC's yet. CCP, masters of suspense.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#276 - 2015-06-22 02:30:15 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
We're saved bois - 110km Talwars & Jackdaws coming to a REAL server near you.


Good thing neither can point that far.


Looks like they've posted more new stuff for upcoming patch... put nothing on BC's yet. CCP, masters of suspense.

At least 110km puts them right where you land when you MJD..... Twisted

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#277 - 2015-06-22 04:12:01 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
We're saved bois - 110km Talwars & Jackdaws coming to a REAL server near you.


Good thing neither can point that far.


Looks like they've posted more new stuff for upcoming patch... put nothing on BC's yet. CCP, masters of suspense.


Where do you go to look about what CCP's gonna cripple next patch?
Falken Falcon
#278 - 2015-07-02 06:32:57 UTC
+1

Aye, Sea Turtles
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#279 - 2015-07-02 08:22:45 UTC
I still like the idea of them being the natural predators to Cruisers in the same way that destroyers are to frigates. Gaining a 3rd combat bonus as a role would be perfect for them, as the power they would enjoy would help balance the cruiser meta without needing it to be nerfed, and give people reason to bring battleships out to play.

Plus something like the Devilcane listed below would make for an amazing HFI to fly solo:

Minmatar Battlecruiser skill:
10% bonus to medium projectile turret damage per level
7.5% bonus to medium projectile turret tracking speed per level

Role bonus:
50% bonus to medium projectile falloff per level


It'd be like flying a Sleip without the phat shield reps lol
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#280 - 2015-07-02 08:28:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
Also, here's a 'balance' idea. If all the combat bc's get 3 bonuses like destroyers have, why not just set it up so only the faction battlecruisers can use links? It'd bump up their price so folks can make a good buck selling them, and it would help keep the power on the cheap t1 battlecruisers down (especially so CCP doesn't have to retroactively nerf them because of it if they want to go the triple bonus route).

As per the point made about the drake navy issue earlier, an easy fix would be moving the range bonus into the role bonus, and giving it a 5% RoF bonus, while dropping a launcher (or two). It would get the utility high to fit a command link AND gain some dps out of the deal too.