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[AEGIS] Fleet Warp Changes - Please see devblog!

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1521 - 2015-06-17 20:55:32 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
How does the fleet warp change impact/synergize/undermine the whole entosis capture thing? I keep feeling there's a subtle connection somehow. :/


Well, it does mean that if you can build something that moves fast enough and targets far enough, they're gonna have a ***** of a time warping their tacklers onto you...

Fortunately, anything filling that description has other viable counters.

I had a talos orbiting 200-250 at 6km/s and a barghest almost ended that escapade.


Yeah... I've been playing w/the idea of a high-speed ECM ship... someone locks you to stop your entosising, jam 'em.


Interceptor armed with sensor damp does the job easily enough.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1522 - 2015-06-17 21:09:41 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
How does the fleet warp change impact/synergize/undermine the whole entosis capture thing? I keep feeling there's a subtle connection somehow. :/


Well, it does mean that if you can build something that moves fast enough and targets far enough, they're gonna have a ***** of a time warping their tacklers onto you...

Fortunately, anything filling that description has other viable counters.

I had a talos orbiting 200-250 at 6km/s and a barghest almost ended that escapade.


Yeah... I've been playing w/the idea of a high-speed ECM ship... someone locks you to stop your entosising, jam 'em.


Interceptor armed with sensor damp does the job easily enough.


You can get around most of those defense with number, You can only fit so many damps on an inty or ECM mods on an ECM ship after all. Oh look, the solution is again the same as to many problems...
Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1523 - 2015-06-17 21:18:07 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:

You can get around most of those defense with number, You can only fit so many damps on an inty or ECM mods on an ECM ship after all. Oh look, the solution is again the same as to many problems...


Not to mention, you actually have to land anywhere near the inty's lock range. Good luck with that when the task involved is first a scan, and then a warp by the prober, and then a warp by you to the prober :)
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1524 - 2015-06-17 21:23:05 UTC
Awkward Pi Duolus wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

You can get around most of those defense with number, You can only fit so many damps on an inty or ECM mods on an ECM ship after all. Oh look, the solution is again the same as to many problems...


Not to mention, you actually have to land anywhere near the inty's lock range. Good luck with that when the task involved is first a scan, and then a warp by the prober, and then a warp by you to the prober :)


Or you can use the most "OP" thing in this game and clutter the grid around his target with friendly ship. One of them will catch or kill or push it away. A loose ball of caracals with rapid light will force an inty off the field. Entosis inty will still be stupid but at least you can shove him off the field. Letting ships as manoeuvrable and fast as inties being able to run entosis link is where the mistakes was made imo.
Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1525 - 2015-06-17 21:25:29 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


Or you can use the most "OP" thing in this game and clutter the grid around his target with friendly ship. One of them will catch or kill or push it away. A loose ball of caracals with rapid light will force an inty off the field. Entosis inty will still be stupid but at least you can shove him off the field. Letting ships as manoeuvrable and fast as inties being able to run entosis link is where the mistakes was made imo.


Yeah..

And then imagine if a group decides to escalate with a bunch of orthruses, which are zipping out at 200km, using T2 links. Any inty or cruiser hull that gets anywhere near it will get evaporated. At least with 10 inties, you could hope that a few of them land scrams and webs. With these changes, they will always land 50-100km behind those guys. If entosis troll wasn't a thing before, now it will be.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1526 - 2015-06-17 21:36:09 UTC
Awkward Pi Duolus wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


Or you can use the most "OP" thing in this game and clutter the grid around his target with friendly ship. One of them will catch or kill or push it away. A loose ball of caracals with rapid light will force an inty off the field. Entosis inty will still be stupid but at least you can shove him off the field. Letting ships as manoeuvrable and fast as inties being able to run entosis link is where the mistakes was made imo.


Yeah..

And then imagine if a group decides to escalate with a bunch of orthruses, which are zipping out at 200km, using T2 links. Any inty or cruiser hull that gets anywhere near it will get evaporated. At least with 10 inties, you could hope that a few of them land scrams and webs. With these changes, they will always land 50-100km behind those guys. If entosis troll wasn't a thing before, now it will be.


Fast maneuvrable boat with long range are kinda stupid.

News at 11.
Dermeisen
#1527 - 2015-06-17 21:43:35 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
How does the fleet warp change impact/synergize/undermine the whole entosis capture thing? I keep feeling there's a subtle connection somehow. :/



It doesnt. Cant warp around the grid and entosis at the same time.


I believe that's correct at the level of game mechanics however I anticipate warping to the command/control points that spawn in the system during the new process will involve much probing, engagement and new tactics ....

"Not the Boreworms!"
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1528 - 2015-06-17 21:48:58 UTC
Dermeisen wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
How does the fleet warp change impact/synergize/undermine the whole entosis capture thing? I keep feeling there's a subtle connection somehow. :/



It doesnt. Cant warp around the grid and entosis at the same time.


I believe that's correct at the level of game mechanics however I anticipate warping to the command/control points that spawn in the system during the new process will involve much probing, engagement and new tactics ....


The guy running the link will still be unable to warp as it would break his lock. For the others, it will depend how the nodes are built. It will either permit free warp to it's grid or force a warp-in point. It might be deadspace for example and not permit warp inside of this grid.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#1529 - 2015-06-17 21:54:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
Fleet Warp Q&A with CCP Larrikin and Spectre Fleet:

https://soundcloud.com/jayne-fillon/spectre-fleet-qa-with-ccp-larrikin

Someone wrote a tl;dr on reddit at https://m.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3a71h3/fleet_warp_qa_with_ccp_larrikin_and_spectre_fleet/ (below)

First question is why change in the first place:

* Give more people roles in fleets. When questioned about alts he didn't really have an answer.
* Give sniper fleets more of an advantage. (Like they really need it since practically everyone runs them)

What about small fleets who can't spare the member to act as a warp beacon?

* Well that kind of sucks for them.

How will this change make it better? Regarding perch bookmarks.

* "That would be tough to find."
* Share the bookmarks.

This would give corp fleets and advantage over NPSI and other mixed fleets.

* Would like to do alliance bookmarks but "technical difficulties".
* Use an alt.
* Doesn't think it gives an advantage.

Changes to bookmarks?

* "Yes"
* "We realize this will impact wormhole groups."

Slippery Petes OP?

* Will flail nerf bat if it gets bad.

Why not let squad commanders warp?

* This breaks the what we want to do with the bomber meta.

This change will cause fleet members to land at different times due to warp speeds, is this intended?

* Fleet warp to a scout if you want to prevent this.

Why include mission locations?

* Consistency
* Slowing mission runners down is not a bad thing.

Planned solutions for wormhole people?

* Looking into it.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1530 - 2015-06-17 22:23:47 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


You can get around most of those defense with number, You can only fit so many damps on an inty or ECM mods on an ECM ship after all. Oh look, the solution is again the same as to many problems...


If they bring numbers the FYF will take over.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1531 - 2015-06-17 22:31:41 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


You can get around most of those defense with number, You can only fit so many damps on an inty or ECM mods on an ECM ship after all. Oh look, the solution is again the same as to many problems...


If they bring numbers the FYF will take over.


And again, you used to eternal solution to most of EVE's problems. It create another but hey, we all wanted to not have limits right?

Off topic, what would happen if 2 FYF faced off? Fastest locker win?
Rekatan
We Heart U
#1532 - 2015-06-17 22:41:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Rekatan
Listening to the Q&A has been extremely frustrating... Every time a good compromise is suggested "ya, but that won't meet our goals with bombing runs" is the response... This should indicate to you Larrikin that bombing runs need to be addressed by specifically working with the bomber. Why they are getting lumped into this goal of making pilots more active is beyond me. The two goals clearly require two separate solutions, and it feels extremely lazy that compromises like squad warp being retained, or a delayed fleet warp "spool up" mechanic aren't being considered, solely because you're trying so hard to kill 2 or even 3 birds with 1 stone.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1533 - 2015-06-17 22:47:38 UTC
Rekatan wrote:
Listening to the Q&A has been extremely frustrating... Every time a good compromise is suggested "ya, but that won't meet our goals with bombing runs" is the response... This should indicate to you Larrikin that bombing runs need to be addressed by specifically working with the bomber. Why they are getting lumped into this goal of making pilots more active is beyond me. The two goals clearly require two separate solutions, and it feels extremely lazy that compromises like squad warp being retained, or a delayed fleet warp "spool up" mechanic aren't being considered, solely because you're trying so hard to kill 2 or even 3 birds with 1 stone.


Nobody has managed to cook up a direct nerf to bombers that doesn't make them utterly useless. All of the "compromises" also result in even bigger nerfs to fleet warping. How exactly is squad warping easier to live with than warping the whole fleet to a scout?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1534 - 2015-06-17 22:49:00 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


Off topic, what would happen if 2 FYF faced off? Fastest locker win?


It would be a battle between two rocks to see which one the wind erodes away first.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1535 - 2015-06-17 22:52:59 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


Off topic, what would happen if 2 FYF faced off? Fastest locker win?


It would be a battle between two rocks to see which one the wind erodes away first.


Reductio ad Celestisums.

I don't even know what to think of this now...
Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1536 - 2015-06-17 22:55:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Awkward Pi Duolus
Zappity wrote:
Fleet Warp Q&A with CCP Larrikin and Spectre Fleet:

https://soundcloud.com/jayne-fillon/spectre-fleet-qa-with-ccp-larrikin

Someone wrote a tl;dr on reddit at https://m.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3a71h3/fleet_warp_qa_with_ccp_larrikin_and_spectre_fleet/ (below)

First question is why change in the first place:

* Give more people roles in fleets. When questioned about alts he didn't really have an answer.
* Give sniper fleets more of an advantage. (Like they really need it since practically everyone runs them)

What about small fleets who can't spare the member to act as a warp beacon?

* Well that kind of sucks for them.

How will this change make it better? Regarding perch bookmarks.

* "That would be tough to find."
* Share the bookmarks.

This would give corp fleets and advantage over NPSI and other mixed fleets.

* Would like to do alliance bookmarks but "technical difficulties".
* Use an alt.
* Doesn't think it gives an advantage.

Changes to bookmarks?

* "Yes"
* "We realize this will impact wormhole groups."

Slippery Petes OP?

* Will flail nerf bat if it gets bad.

Why not let squad commanders warp?

* This breaks the what we want to do with the bomber meta.

This change will cause fleet members to land at different times due to warp speeds, is this intended?

* Fleet warp to a scout if you want to prevent this.

Why include mission locations?

* Consistency
* Slowing mission runners down is not a bad thing.

Planned solutions for wormhole people?

* Looking into it.


Thank you, Z.

I'm going to hope that CCP Fozzie will sleep on this tonight and wake up realizing that Larrikin effectively made the case for why this is such a bad idea, and why the supposed benefits are marginal at best. It's easy to ignore forum whiners like me, but hopefully hearing the demerits of the idea in your own voice has a greater effect.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1537 - 2015-06-17 22:56:36 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


Off topic, what would happen if 2 FYF faced off? Fastest locker win?


It would be a battle between two rocks to see which one the wind erodes away first.


Reductio ad Celestisums.

I don't even know what to think of this now...


I does fit into the mantra of no fun allowed.
Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1538 - 2015-06-17 22:57:25 UTC
Rekatan wrote:
Listening to the Q&A has been extremely frustrating... Every time a good compromise is suggested "ya, but that won't meet our goals with bombing runs" is the response... This should indicate to you Larrikin that bombing runs need to be addressed by specifically working with the bomber. Why they are getting lumped into this goal of making pilots more active is beyond me. The two goals clearly require two separate solutions, and it feels extremely lazy that compromises like squad warp being retained, or a delayed fleet warp "spool up" mechanic aren't being considered, solely because you're trying so hard to kill 2 or even 3 birds with 1 stone.


Exactly.. it's such a ham-handed "solution" to a bunch of problems it doesn't even fix, and creates even more issues..
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1539 - 2015-06-17 23:33:17 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:

The goons have realized that it is easier to "ruin your gameplay" by controlling the CSM rather than trying to herd their cats (members) in-game for the same goal?



heh, good luck with that

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
Jenshae Chiroptera
#1540 - 2015-06-17 23:36:32 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
How does the fleet warp change impact/synergize/undermine the whole entosis capture thing? I keep feeling there's a subtle connection somehow. :/
Really fast magic wand ship that you can no longer warp tackle onto?

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.