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[AEGIS] Fleet Warp Changes - Please see devblog!

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unimatrix0030
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1141 - 2015-06-13 20:57:29 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Tatsuj Khan wrote:
Some posters casually dismiss the serious concerns of wormhole residents, with pithy statements like get warp-to scouts to sit on the WHs in our chains. Imagine if system gates are NOT 'public' and you need to have scouts sit on zero on them for fleet OPs. For huge alliance such as the goons and pl with hundreds of ships at their disposal in their regions, it's not a problem. But for many much smaller, corps the changes are a problem.



Sounds like a perfect time to go recruit some new players and get them into low SP scout ships.

And again you dismiss the serious concerns for a problem that does not exist now and will be created by this change.

No local in null sec would fix everything!
Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#1142 - 2015-06-13 21:03:57 UTC
Zen Tsai wrote:
CCP, you are nerfing competent FCs by directly attacking the impact of their player skills. All this does is equal the playing field between the great FCs and the mediocre FCs. In effect, it dumbs the game down, and caters to the unskilled players getting smeared by the truly talented players. And all while masquerading as a change that will get fleet members more involved in fights.

Why slow down the game? Who was so mad at getting outplayed that they lobbied this ridiculous change through? Whose ego is being catered to with this change? Whoever you are, HTFU you whiny space nerd. Those who are best at playing the game SHOULD win.


It does the opposite, it enables good teams of people working together to be stronger than a single person trying to do everything.
If FC's are not getting the right support then there in the wrong place to do what there trying to do, and should move to a better place with a better support structure to enable them to be top tear.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1143 - 2015-06-13 21:06:19 UTC
unimatrix0030 wrote:

And again you dismiss the serious concerns for a problem that does not exist now and will be created by this change.


I dismiss it because it is not a problem unless you are incompetent.
unimatrix0030
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1144 - 2015-06-13 21:10:21 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
unimatrix0030 wrote:

And again you dismiss the serious concerns for a problem that does not exist now and will be created by this change.


I dismiss it because it is not a problem unless you are incompetent.

Ha, you just don't want to see it as a problem.

No local in null sec would fix everything!
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#1145 - 2015-06-13 21:17:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrified
Winter Archipelago wrote:
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:

"But, but those sniping ships all die to all those bombers... Wait. Because it will no longer be easy mode for bombers, it means battleships and battlecruisers will have a place on the battlefield now. Damn it. My entire argument is crumbling around me. Curses!"

This isn't going to be the huge negative impact on bombers that some people seem to believe it will be.


Most of the bombing fleets I have been in, no wait, all of the bombing fleets I have been in use a warp in scout. Scout gets into position then designated waves of bombers warp to the scout.

If anything, I see this neutering of Fleet Warp as targeted to people who multi-box. Unfortunately, it impacts non-multi-boxers with equal ferocity.

My main issue with this is the inconsistency of the change. Personally, I don't think CCP should do this in half-measures, just remove Fleet Warp completely instead of doing it in parts.


Edit to add: and it would be easy to justify the removal of fleet warp from the game because of the introduction of the entosis link - slaving your navigation computer to someone elses is a security risk that the entosis link could take advantage of.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#1146 - 2015-06-13 21:22:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Tappits
unimatrix0030 wrote:
This change is only for big null sec alliances and everyone else gets the short end of the stick.
Large alliances can spare extra scanners and warps in alts(both in the same person is not possible choose scanning or tackling). Small to medium alliances have ALL the disadvantages.
Bombers fleets will hardly be affected .
What does this even improve? Nothing at all!!!
There will be less ships exploding because you won't catch anyone.
Wormhole space will get even emptier then before, catching fleets will be impossible.
Getting to a new chain will take a lot longer.
Catching people in sites will become impossible.
Maybe we can add a 5 minute delay in null sec to see the warp beacon of a gate, see how you guys like it.


I don't think any of this will happen...

probing alts will still be the same probing alts.
you will still catch people. there will be more stranglers there will be more time were people cannot warp out while you come in because they don't have there out spot setup yet.
what it will stop is scrub FC's endlessly pinging his fleet around unwilling to fight because scaree..
People will still WH
how will the time to get a chain set up take longer?
and how will catching people in sites be impossible?

Most of every ones comments are just lazy people who have had easy mode for far too long....

CCP adds some challenging TEAM play to the game and every one cry's because they had some one be able to do everything for them for years.
unimatrix0030
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1147 - 2015-06-13 21:47:47 UTC  |  Edited by: unimatrix0030
Tappits wrote:


I don't think any of this will happen...

probing alts will still be the same probing alts.
you will still catch people. there will be more stranglers there will be more time were people cannot warp out while you come in because they don't have there out spot setup yet.
what it will stop is scrub FC's endlessly pinging his fleet around unwilling to fight because scaree..
People will still WH
how will the time to get a chain set up take longer?
and how will catching people in sites be impossible?

Most of every ones comments are just lazy people who have had easy mode for far too long....

CCP adds some challenging TEAM play to the game and every one cry's because they had some one be able to do everything for them for years.

First of all probing alts won't be the same since they now need to be able to tackle.
New wormhole, you jump in and the clock start ticking, either they saw you come in, are safe already or see a new sig on scan.
They already start to align to the pos.
Scouts sees wrecks on scan, and starts looking for targets.
Most targets who look on d-scan will already be in warp.
Because of the long spawn ranges in sleeper sites most fleets won't be on 0 of the warp in.
So you put out probes, then you have 1 minute to get a lock and warp a interdictor to it.
With this you will first need to warp a covert ops to it, who will have trouble scanning them because of the warp rigs.
And then the interdictor can start to warp, to land when the targets already warped out.
No content.
And getting the chain propagates will be a pain once more.
First we need to wait 5 minutes for the corp of the scanner to drop bookmarks.Then all the other corps need to pick up the bm's and put it in, other members need to wait for an other 5 minutes for them to propagate.
O and don't come with those bring an alt to have a warp in to everything, with 10 dudes missing 1 dude sitting in a warp to ship is a big difference!
Brining more alts is not a way to fix things and only work in favor of the bigger alliances.
So basicly you lose 5 minutes when targets warp to there pos in less then half that.
And no having the fleet one jump after the scanner is not possible since you scan more then one chain at a time just to be able to find anyone.
And all this because null has one little issue with combat probing... .

No local in null sec would fix everything!
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1148 - 2015-06-13 22:03:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
unimatrix0030 wrote:
With this you will first need to warp a covert ops to it, who will have trouble scanning them because of the warp rigs.

So, the ship with the highest base warp speed and the highest bonus to probes, is going to have a hard time probing people?

What did you use before, QA modules?

The only added factor in your scenario with regards to time, is the prober warping to site and having dictor warp to his location, which, in a worst case scenario, only adds double the warp time of the dictor pilot.

All the other factors are identical.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#1149 - 2015-06-13 22:07:29 UTC
Please reduce CPU requirement of Expanded probe launchers.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1150 - 2015-06-13 22:09:27 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Please reduce CPU requirement of Expanded probe launchers.

Gonna quote every time I see it.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#1151 - 2015-06-13 22:13:06 UTC
Why not increase the scan time for combat probes instead of buggering about with fleet warp?

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1152 - 2015-06-13 22:17:56 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Why not increase the scan time for combat probes instead of buggering about with fleet warp?

Doesn't fit the stated goal of 'more pilot interaction' just increases time.
Lyra Gerie
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1153 - 2015-06-13 22:20:27 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Why not increase the scan time for combat probes instead of buggering about with fleet warp?



Because that doesn't fix the problem they are trying to address. That doesn't change the fact that their current idea does fix it and also breaks or heavily hinders other parts of the game. If this is how they want fleets to behave there are other ways to approach it then hitting ALL fleets.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#1154 - 2015-06-13 22:27:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
Rowells wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Why not increase the scan time for combat probes instead of buggering about with fleet warp?

Doesn't fit the stated goal of 'more pilot interaction' just increases time.

That is one of their stated goals: "...reduce the speed at which fleets can get on top of targets."

I think the fleet warp change is ridiculous for the player involvement goal anyway. You might get a few extra scouts but the vast majority of fleet members won't do anything different. Surely it would be better to reduce maximum fleet size and nerf target broadcasting for this goal.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Emrys Alf
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1155 - 2015-06-13 22:31:58 UTC
Pity the additions are not as good as the nurfing.


What a pain. What a waste.
Zepheros Naeonis
TinklePee
#1156 - 2015-06-13 22:33:06 UTC
More illogical changes, brought to you by CCP.
Lyra Gerie
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1157 - 2015-06-13 22:43:12 UTC
Zepheros Naeonis wrote:
More illogical changes, brought to you by CCP.

The logic is there, the implementation is not
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1158 - 2015-06-13 22:43:26 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Why not increase the scan time for combat probes instead of buggering about with fleet warp?

Doesn't fit the stated goal of 'more pilot interaction' just increases time.

That is one if their stated goals: "...reduce the speed at which fleets can get on top of targets."

I think the fleet warp change is ridiculous for the player involvement goal anyway. You might get a few extra scouts but the vast majority of fleet members won't do anything different. Surely it would be better to reduce maximum fleet size and nerf target broadcasting for this goal.

Scan time hits one goal, but the warp need hits both, while using one effect as a cause for the other.

There's definitely some things need to be ironed out though. I definitely thing more probing options plays more into the interaction. Depending on how low the requirements go, may even make ranged doctrines more vulnerable. But that's a bit off topic I guess.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1159 - 2015-06-13 22:51:44 UTC
Zappity wrote:

That is one if their stated goals: "...reduce the speed at which fleets can get on top of targets."


I'm still wondering why that was under consideration to begin with.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Insurance Agent
Hull Zero Two
#1160 - 2015-06-13 23:04:48 UTC
unimatrix0030 wrote:

First of all probing alts won't be the same since they now need to be able to tackle.
New wormhole, you jump in and the clock start ticking, either they saw you come in, are safe already or see a new sig on scan.
They already start to align to the pos.
Scouts sees wrecks on scan, and starts looking for targets.
Most targets who look on d-scan will already be in warp.
Because of the long spawn ranges in sleeper sites most fleets won't be on 0 of the warp in.
So you put out probes, then you have 1 minute to get a lock and warp a interdictor to it.
With this you will first need to warp a covert ops to it, who will have trouble scanning them because of the warp rigs.
And then the interdictor can start to warp, to land when the targets already warped out.
No content.


First you say that your scout either get's spoted or not on entering system, and most pve savy pilots will be in warp asap when they do notice your scout.

At this point probes will do no good for you.
If they didn't notice you come in, and you do notice wrecks, why would you need to probe? Of course they could be in a data/relic site, but those have a different meta.
You either have plenty of time to find and locate targets, or they have prepared and outside fleets would have almost no chance to drop on them. Why should a competent pve fleet have more disadvantages then a pvp fleet?