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[AEGIS] Fleet Warp Changes - Please see devblog!

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Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#861 - 2015-06-12 17:16:45 UTC
Budrick3 wrote:
Manfred Sideous wrote:
Tara Read wrote:
Manfred Sideous wrote:
I am a FC I feel no extra weight from this change and if I did. I get volunteers from fleet to help me.


That's a terrible excuse Manfred. Come on.... so you expect other FC's to force other people to play fleet jockey or get another account. I rest my case.



Teamwork its a alien concept I guess hey?


Not everyone chooses to fly in blobs that can warrant a scouting position.

Scouting is valuable to gangs of all sizes. Hell, I use scouts when in a gang consisting of solely my own accounts.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#862 - 2015-06-12 17:17:34 UTC
Jeff Kione wrote:
Querns wrote:
The knock-on effects to wormhole space may even be intentional!


Right, because there was a problem in w-space that needed to be solved. That's just nonsense.


The problem is with fleets everywhere.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#863 - 2015-06-12 17:21:32 UTC
Budrick3 wrote:


Not everyone chooses to fly in blobs that can warrant a scouting position.



People like you are the reason why titans get caught traveling solo.
Valterra Craven
#864 - 2015-06-12 17:23:27 UTC
Querns wrote:

I daresay their opinion is that combat probing allows fleets to engage too quickly.

Then why not adjust combat probing, or how quickly fleets warp instead of changing something unrelated that has effects beyond the stated goal?

Querns wrote:

You're falling into the trap of commoditizing Eve gameplay under the monkey filth that is the contemporary use of the word "content."


Normally, I respect your opinion, but this just makes no sense. What are you even talking about?

Querns wrote:

Also, reducing the power of bombers almost certainly will allow the fleet meta to shift, as fleet meta is currently dominated by ships whose vulnerability to bombs is at a minimum.


But this doesn't actually reduce the power of bombers. Cuse ya know they are still just as powerful as before. Bombs aren't affected by this change and neither are bombers capabilities. You can still fleet warp to a cloaky on grid and bombers can still do the same amount of damage as before. This change just makes no sense.
Leoric Firesword
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#865 - 2015-06-12 17:26:13 UTC
Sparrow Creature wrote:
this change will kill wormhole just saying..


not really, after you align to your next site, instead of your FC warping you he gives the command "warp now" or "warp to b" and boom, you're doing the same thing you did before.


you're welcome that I fixed wormholing for you :)
Telizane
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#866 - 2015-06-12 17:29:22 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
The change restriction is too high and affects too many areas of life in Eve, from Kspace, to Null, to Wspace. I would propose a smaller iteration to address the concerns of how fleet warp mechanics now work.


  • Permit Squad Commanders in a fleet to fleet-warp their squad to bookmarks and probed sigs.


Essentially you move the capabilities of the overall fleet and wing commander down to the squad level. You remove the big flying balls of hurt down to decisions made by the squad commander, permitting them to decide on tactical warp ins, locations and fleet warps for their squad.

You restrict fleet warps down to a 10 man team, with a individual per 10 man team making individual decisions for that 10 man team, to support the fleet efforts.

Fleet and Wing commanders would lose this ability to warp entire armada's to bookmarks and scanned sigs, but permit smaller skirmish groups/squads to warp their small group to them.

You move the leadership role of getting tacticals and flying to the leader of the squad, reducing the blob down to at most, 10 pilots, vs the 100+ null runs into. You now create a new leadership dynamic, and permit new people to have a stepping stone to becoming a Fleet Commander. Squad Leaders gain power, and have a relevant role verses just being a booster for their fleetmates.

I'd start with baby steps first, commonly known as "A Iteration" (Thanks for that CCP Rise).

Remove the ability for fleet commanders and wing commanders from warping entire groups to bookmarks and scan probes, and reduce it down to the squad level.

Try that first. See how it actually works.



+1
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#867 - 2015-06-12 17:31:50 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
I thought Fozzie SOV would need a cruisers with cloaks and some scouts to keep griefing defenders.
Now they won't be able to probe tackle anyone so they don't even need cloaks.

You don't need skills to probe down an MWDing cruiser ... just fit a T3D for probing, speed and tackle and the cruiser is toast. The problem comes with the near unprobable OGB and cruising fleets, where you either need a perfect prober or more than one tackler.

I'm my own NPC alt.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#868 - 2015-06-12 17:35:03 UTC
Elenahina wrote:


Go watch the Eve is real trailer again and ask yourself where the hero interceptors are these days?


In my fleets? Along with their brothers and sisters the hero interdictors...

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Imataki Nobuno
Household Stair Manufacturing Association of Amarr
Gundam Factory Workers Union
#869 - 2015-06-12 17:40:00 UTC
I feel like this nerfs mixed corp/alliance fleets. When doing a convoy, jump bridges sometimes need to be used. If a fleet jumps into system and the FC says to warp to a jump bridge, the only ones in the initial warp will only be members of the corporation that bookmarked the jump bridge. This could be a good chunk of the fleet, leaving the rest sitting around until a warp-to-member is available.

Moving bookmark/probe warps to squads sounds like an awesome idea, which allows the functionality but not on the grand-scale that broke it.
TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#870 - 2015-06-12 17:41:50 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hopelesshobo wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:

As announced on the o7 show we are making some changes to fleet warp. Fleet Commanders, Wing Commanders & Squad Commanders will no longer be able to warp to anything a fleet member couldn’t warp to on their own. This includes –
  • Bookmarks


    • Does this include corporation bookmarks that the person in the same corp could warp to?


    Yes. You can only fleet warp to things that any member of your fleet could warp to, no matter what corp or alliances they are a part of.


    Would that mean, you are not encouraged to fly fleets filled with people from different corporations, not spanning an alliance?

    With several friends I have intel channels that form fleet ops based on online activity, not on cohesive structures offered in game, mostly due the fact that those people don't like CTA's and things like that. They just like to hang out and play EVE when able.

    "Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

    "Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

    -= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
    Harrison Tato
    Yamato Holdings
    #871 - 2015-06-12 17:43:14 UTC
    MrBrookes wrote:
    Ok so what about the person who has multi accounts in this game.....................


    did u ever think of them??? We rely on the fleet warp to get us from point A to B.

    Everyone in this game HAS A ALT and enjoys the fleet warp option to help move things around. It just makes the gaming that much easier and once again U SCREW IT ALL UP all because you are thinking of one group and forgetting the rest of us.




    Don't speak for all of us.
    Imataki Nobuno
    Household Stair Manufacturing Association of Amarr
    Gundam Factory Workers Union
    #872 - 2015-06-12 17:43:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Imataki Nobuno
    Phoenix Jones wrote:
    The change restriction is too high and affects too many areas of life in Eve, from Kspace, to Null, to Wspace. I would propose a smaller iteration to address the concerns of how fleet warp mechanics now work.


    • Permit Squad Commanders in a fleet to fleet-warp their squad to bookmarks and probed sigs.


    Essentially you move the capabilities of the overall fleet and wing commander down to the squad level. You remove the big flying balls of hurt down to decisions made by the squad commander, permitting them to decide on tactical warp ins, locations and fleet warps for their squad.

    You restrict fleet warps down to a 10 man team, with a individual per 10 man team making individual decisions for that 10 man team, to support the fleet efforts.

    Fleet and Wing commanders would lose this ability to warp entire armada's to bookmarks and scanned sigs, but permit smaller skirmish groups/squads to warp their small group to them.

    You move the leadership role of getting tacticals and flying to the leader of the squad, reducing the blob down to at most, 10 pilots, vs the 100+ null runs into. You now create a new leadership dynamic, and permit new people to have a stepping stone to becoming a Fleet Commander. Squad Leaders gain power, and have a relevant role verses just being a booster for their fleetmates.

    I'd start with baby steps first, commonly known as "A Iteration" (Thanks for that CCP Rise).

    Remove the ability for fleet commanders and wing commanders from warping entire groups to bookmarks and scan probes, and reduce it down to the squad level.

    Try that first. See how it actually works.


    This, this is a good post.
    Savesti Kyrsst
    All Cats Are Beautiful
    #873 - 2015-06-12 17:47:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Savesti Kyrsst
    Couple assumptions seem to be being made in the "arguing for" position:

    1) If you can't get someone competent in fleet to scout for you your dudes are just bad. I know when FCing tiny ass gangs, which is all I do, I'll use both, but my alt as scout is always reliable, doesn't have to go sleep, speaks english as a first language etc. I dunno in groups where I *couldn't* get someone competent to play scout tbh we probably were just bad. So, well, imo this "for" argument is actually valid.

    2) Screw multiboxers doing pve. Eh, I don't think this will help sub numbers hugely, but whatever.

    3)
    Manfred Sideous wrote:
    Luft Reich wrote:
    I see our wormhole CSM is valiantly defending the life style of people in wormhole space....Roll

    Yeah, it might be good for nullsec but have you really thought about the effects on wormhole space? Clearly not.


    Warping yourself or warping to Wwwww's in fleet Zomgz life is over .


    Manny think for like a second, it means they have to do this for hours going down new chains every day. It will be a major pain in the ass for them. Come on I'm sure you've been in WHs more than me, and I see that.

    4)
    CCP Larrikin wrote:

    Masao Kurata wrote:
    This is unnecessarily problematic for warping a fleet onto a target who is on a station, and thus you cannot get a covops remotely near without decloaking him. I think you've only considered a narrow range of fleet warp scenarios and are making people that are already very safe even safer.

    Somone who is on a station (stations can be fleet warped to) is already safe?


    Not if aggressed. And station dock radii are huge. However I haven't got many kills of noobs who are playing station games/don't understand aggression since the glory days of 2008. I see "someone who is on a station is already safe" as more a statement of design intent than fact, which is interesting, but after being irritated by the factual innacuracy I can agree with the sentiment.


    Personally I don't think this will cause a significant dip in subs.

    Booster alts will be sorted soon, I'm sure. Mine is fully trained about now so it's inevitable by Murphy's Law, right?

    I think the "squad warp" solution is better, IF it is technically feasable.

    Making the game more fun needs to be a design goal informing every step; however I can see good arguments that it will make it more fun, as well as more annoying sometimes.

    I think those who are saying this will ease FC burnout, and are using this to argue "for", are being a little tendentious. Really depends on the FC and the group and a lot of intangible factors. Clearly there is some division in the thread between FCs on the issues. BL and PL seem strongly "for". I guess all we could do is wait and see.

    I think arguing that this makes it harder for new players has little validity. If we want to increase sub numbers we need to do radical things, like make NPE bearable, revamp the bits of the game that have changed little since ~2003, and ease the burden of skill training - or even radically remove it for lower-end ships.
    Querns
    Science and Trade Institute
    Caldari State
    #874 - 2015-06-12 17:50:03 UTC
    Valterra Craven wrote:
    Querns wrote:

    I daresay their opinion is that combat probing allows fleets to engage too quickly.

    Then why not adjust combat probing, or how quickly fleets warp instead of changing something unrelated that has effects beyond the stated goal?

    This is an adjustment to combat probing.
    Quote:

    Querns wrote:

    You're falling into the trap of commoditizing Eve gameplay under the monkey filth that is the contemporary use of the word "content."


    Normally, I respect your opinion, but this just makes no sense. What are you even talking about?

    Your use of the term "engagement" falls under the general purview of the use of the word "content" as a term meaning "a commodity borne of engaging in PVP activity in Eve Online."

    Quote:

    But this doesn't actually reduce the power of bombers. Cuse ya know they are still just as powerful as before. Bombs aren't affected by this change and neither are bombers capabilities. You can still fleet warp to a cloaky on grid and bombers can still do the same amount of damage as before. This change just makes no sense.

    Positioning matters. Contemporary bombing runs rely on split-second combat probing. Requiring a physical warp-in not only decreases the number of bombing runs that can happen, but also places a weakness in the whole shebang in the form of the warp-in.

    This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
    Rectar en Meunk
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #875 - 2015-06-12 17:50:07 UTC
    Manfred Sideous wrote:
    Long Muppet wrote:
    Manfred Sideous wrote:

    To put this into context drone assign was largely removed as we know it. CCP said that they think it is bad when other people play the game for you.


    This is a great point Manny! Maybe, just like with drone assign we should allow squad commanders to fleet warp their 10 people. This ensures you are still taking a nerfbat to the ridiculously huge nullsec fleets while not simultaneously killing small gangs.

    I get that having a scout in a large fleet isn't a big deal as they generally have many of them, but requiring a small gang to now dedicate one of their pilots as scout is unnecessary and ruins game play. Finding a middle ground (just as we did we drone assign) is the best option.


    Good suggestion and this is the exact reason CCP asks for feedback in these threads

    Make it happen and this will become my favorite patch ever (after bookmarks in space).

    To add to https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5813029#post5813029, this change requires sub-fcs which might just do warping, or they might do more. A perfect position to put FCs in training into.
    M1k3y Koontz
    Speaker for the Dead
    Shadow Cartel
    #876 - 2015-06-12 17:50:49 UTC
    Ripblade Falconpunch wrote:
    Manfred Sideous wrote:
    +1 this is a excellent change that will help to open up combat/fleet tactics. I supported and pushed hard for this.


    In your opinion. And the 42 pages of mostly negative feedback seem to think that by and large, your opinion sucks almost as much as your attitude towards people with different opinions.

    Sadly there's no mechanic for impeaching CSM members - because you and most of your brethren would be on the docket right now after the buggy / broken / terrible map, the "new and improved" icons, and now this.


    Fourty-two pages of bitching about a change that isn't the end of the world is a Tuesday for EVE.

    How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
    TheSmokingHertog
    Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
    #877 - 2015-06-12 17:53:39 UTC
    Fayde Sinulf wrote:

    4) Player deployed warp beacons. More use for WH's and system defenders I imagine but these can be deployed and can be be seen by all in system.


    That would be a great addition for fleets with a mixed corporate composition, for a lot of ops performed by fleet, you can map possibilities within the ops target, at that moment a prepared fleet will get nice results.

    "Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

    "Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

    -= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
    Lidia Caderu
    Brave Newbies Inc.
    Brave Collective
    #878 - 2015-06-12 17:55:24 UTC
    CCP Larrikin wrote:

    reduce the speed at which fleets can get on top of targets (e.g bombers).

    Aha
    Dermeisen
    #879 - 2015-06-12 17:59:21 UTC
    Elenahina wrote:
    Torgeir Hekard wrote:
    baltec1 wrote:
    Yes, making a safe on the fly is exactly what a scout does.

    Nope. It's something a scout may begrudgingly have to do because there's nobody else to do that, but tries to avoid doing as much as possible. It's like saying that flying droneboats is fun, and then state that scoopdeploying is exactly what a droneboat pilot does.


    You need better scouts. If I tell my scout to make rolling safes, and he says, "Ugh, fine if I have to", I will leave his ass to die at the next gate camp (and I might help them kill him).

    The FC runs the fleet, the members carry out tasks issued by the FC. If the members are incapable or unwilling to carry out those tasks, replace them. It's just that simple.

    The days of the FC basically doing everything but clicking "Jump" and pushing "F1" need to die with a furious vengenace in the firey pits of hades.

    Go watch the Eve is real trailer again and ask yourself where the hero interceptors are these days?


    Love this comment, yes CCP have reinvigorated a long neglected career: the scout. I have met some Gor Dam'ed awesome scouts in this game. It's an art, getting the perfect warp from a cov-ops, getting the drop on the enemy should be more about team work and less about convenient mechanics.

    Getting from the "run spot" to the warp-in means the bombers must be pointed in the right way, aligned to drop out of war at the right distance to blab them real quick , beautiful. The only way to acquire those kind of skills is to require them.

    We're hearing lot of 'game breaking' hyperbole but no one's providing much evidence. Or is it a better game when FC's warped us all to point X and all we had to do was drop sentries, come on please we need only train up better scouts.

    FC's online is fine game if all you aspire to be is a drone

    +1 for this change

    "Not the Boreworms!"
    Vic Jefferson
    Stimulus
    Rote Kapelle
    #880 - 2015-06-12 18:00:53 UTC
    What you need is a bandaid for a few hedge cases of large fleet encounters, and you instead order a brain surgery. Ugh

    This change would be horrible. You should encourage the smashing of fleets onto each other more; half the problem of big fleet fights is the ease of disengagement because every damn thing out there worth flying doesn't brawl. Higher body count encounters where fleets can't just wisp away from each other easily is a GOOD THING, and this change more or less helps fleets be really picky about engagements. It continually amazes me how little ISK in ships is lost in fights in null compared to what is fielded; the meta does enough work to keep fleets alive, why would you exacerbate this more and take one of the few tools that lets kiting fleets be punished?

    Fix bombers separately. Jesus.

    Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?