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[AEGIS] Fleet Warp Changes - Please see devblog!

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Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#841 - 2015-06-12 16:47:35 UTC
Suspicious Tubesteak wrote:

So why not just fix bombers and/or bomb damage application then?

This change goes a long way to help the situtation.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#842 - 2015-06-12 16:48:23 UTC
Elana Apgar wrote:
No, it won't. When you are attacking at tower in W-Space, and need to warp to bounces AS A FLEET a fast tackle interceptor won't help. When you are warping a fleet from a hostile tower or wormhole AS A FLEET to a safe/friendly tower, a fast tackle interceptor won't work. When you are running capital escalation sites in a C5 or C6 and you need to warp back to the friendly POS AS A FLEET, a fast tackle interceptor won't work. When you are fighting off of a tower with a hostile fleet and need to warp to a safe spot as A FLEET fast tackle won't work, because it could very well be dead. Fast tackle might be the answer for everything in Null Sec, but it certainly isn't in W-Space.

It sounds like you need to find new tactics.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Suspicious Tubesteak
Doomheim
#843 - 2015-06-12 16:52:19 UTC
Querns wrote:
Suspicious Tubesteak wrote:

So why not just fix bombers and/or bomb damage application then?

This change goes a long way to help the situtation.


Goes a long way to help the situation for nullsec and basically nobody else.

I meant more along the lines of why not just fix the ships and / or bombs directly?
HTC NecoSino
Suddenly Carebears
#844 - 2015-06-12 16:53:51 UTC  |  Edited by: HTC NecoSino
Col North Chanlin wrote:
Just a request; Can you please disclose how much the Nullsec funders paid for the further killing of W-Space life? X


They have to get their return off buying a CSM, dontchyaknow.
#RecallCorbexx.

I feel like Corbexx is trolling me in that damned Hawaiian shirt..
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#845 - 2015-06-12 16:54:13 UTC
Leeluvv wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Elana Apgar wrote:
Dear CCP Larkin and CCP Fozzie,

This is game breaking for W-Space.

And here are the two main reasons:

The main game breaking reason is:

When travelling in W-Space AS A FLEET you almost always have to Fleet Warp from a bookmark to travel from Wormhole to Wormhole until you get to your destination Wormhole. Sometimes you engage hostiles on a wormhole, other times you Fleet Warp to a specific location, whether it be a safe, bounce off of a tower, a tractor unit/wreck, or even a friendly tower.

If we cannot move as a fleet, this will absolutely break Fleet engagements in W-Space. Just like in Null-Sec it is important to move as a fleet, but unlike Null Sec we do not have Gates on our overview or Stations on our overview. We use bookmarks for safes, wormholes, and POS'.

How can you seriously expect us to do anything in a coordinated manner if we cannot warp as a group? Have you even been involved in wormhole fleet fights to see how it all works? If you'd like specific examples of how various wormhole engagements would be impossible, I'd be more then happy to supply them.

The second reason:

When in wormhole space, you sometimes have to combat scan a small ship to kill him. And often times you need to "throw" a tackle ship at that ship you are combat scanning. With these changes it will be near impossible to catch a small ship because by the time your combat scan ship lands the target will quite possibly be gone, or if you tackle in the scan ship, it might not survive until help arrives.

I am strongly URGING you to reconsider how this change will IRREPARABLY DAMAGE W-Space before implementing this. W-Space in many ways is struggling, and this could very well destroy it. I really don't understand why CCP feels the need to have all changes in the game revolve around Null Sec.

Thank you for your time.



one pilot in a fast interceptor fixes your problem.


As has already been mentioned, an interceptor with no probing bonus is your probing ship now or do I need 3 people to do what used to be done by 1? Bye, bye small gang PvP in WHs.


FC ships have probes fitted already. I dont see where the issue is, if you want the bonus then just use a fast cov-ops.
Leeluvv
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#846 - 2015-06-12 16:55:12 UTC
Hendrink Collie wrote:
Leeluvv wrote:
Hendrink Collie wrote:
Generally I am for these changes. I think it will add some interesting dynamics and will open up doctrine choices that were over-shadowed with the current META of overpowered probing/fleet warp mechanics. There is one thing I'd like to change though:

Only in wormhole space, allow for fleet warps to cosmic signatures. Currently these changes disproportional affect wormholers, and I believe the proposed changes wouldn't benefit overall tactics in wormhole space compared to everywhere else.



If you have to compromise the implementation, then the solution you have chosen to implement is flawed and not actually fit for purpose. This is the classic case of a solution looking for a problem.


... isn't that the whole idea of feedback, to find possible issues with the idea and to give ways to fix the issues? I know it's popular just to lay on the floor kicking and screaming, but I find it more constructive to give feedback that could help groups of people that are oppressively affected by changes. I believe what I have said is a good compromise. What say you?


Not necessarily. If someone was going to fix my flat tyre by painting the car blue to hide the flat, you tell them that painting is the wrong solution, you don't suggest red would hide it better.
Ele Rebellion
Vertex Armada
The Initiative.
#847 - 2015-06-12 16:56:50 UTC
CCP can we expect that the concern about OGBs and WH bookmarks will be addressed before this is implemented?
Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
#848 - 2015-06-12 16:56:52 UTC
Col North Chanlin wrote:
Just a request; Can you please disclose how much the Nullsec funders paid for the further killing of W-Space life? X


Hate to tell you this buddy, we hate it just as much as you. It's a pointless change that makes the need of +1 cloaky alt all the more important. Good for their bottom line until people throw their hands up and leave from the added monotony with little return.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#849 - 2015-06-12 16:57:01 UTC
HTC NecoSino wrote:
Col North Chanlin wrote:
Just a request; Can you please disclose how much the Nullsec funders paid for the further killing of W-Space life? X


They have to get their return off buying a CSM, dontchyaknow.
#RecallCorbexx.

This shit right here is why I keep coming back to eveo.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#850 - 2015-06-12 16:58:11 UTC
Suspicious Tubesteak wrote:
Querns wrote:
Suspicious Tubesteak wrote:

So why not just fix bombers and/or bomb damage application then?

This change goes a long way to help the situtation.


Goes a long way to help the situation for nullsec and basically nobody else.

I meant more along the lines of why not just fix the ships and / or bombs directly?

Who said the change was specifically to nerf bombers? The knock-on effects to wormhole space may even be intentional!

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#851 - 2015-06-12 16:58:42 UTC
I thought Fozzie SOV would need a cruisers with cloaks and some scouts to keep griefing defenders.
Now they won't be able to probe tackle anyone so they don't even need cloaks.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Suspicious Tubesteak
Doomheim
#852 - 2015-06-12 17:00:16 UTC
Suspicious Tubesteak wrote:
Querns wrote:
Suspicious Tubesteak wrote:

So why not just fix bombers and/or bomb damage application then?

This change goes a long way to help the situtation.


Goes a long way to help the situation for nullsec and basically nobody else.

I meant more along the lines of why not just fix the ships and / or bombs directly?


Disregard, I just answered my own question. Because bombers ARE stupidly OP in certain situations, and nobody wants to give that up by nerfing them.

So the "have your cake and eat it as well" solution is to nerf fleet warping, which initially sounds somewhat OK - until you think about all the mundane uses for fleet warp as a general QOL function, used by many people in all classes of space.
SilentAsTheGrave
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#853 - 2015-06-12 17:00:27 UTC
Nasar Vyron wrote:
Col North Chanlin wrote:
Just a request; Can you please disclose how much the Nullsec funders paid for the further killing of W-Space life? X


Hate to tell you this buddy, we hate it just as much as you. It's a pointless change that makes the need of +1 cloaky alt all the more important. Good for their bottom line until people throw their hands up and leave from the added monotony with little return.

the same rhetoric was vomited when Phoebe was announced. The game is better and people didn't run out and buy more accounts.
Jeff Kione
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#854 - 2015-06-12 17:01:09 UTC
Querns wrote:
The knock-on effects to wormhole space may even be intentional!


Right, because there was a problem in w-space that needed to be solved. That's just nonsense.
Ele Rebellion
Vertex Armada
The Initiative.
#855 - 2015-06-12 17:03:18 UTC
HTC NecoSino wrote:
They have to get their return off buying a CSM, dontchyaknow.
#RecallCorbexx.


Funny how CCP Larrikin mentioned Corbexx by name in post #104 as if he's defending him. (maybe CCP Larrikin is actually GSF Larrikin)


CCP Larrikin wrote:
Corbexx brought these up while we where talking to the CSM about the change.

Budrick3
Moira.
#856 - 2015-06-12 17:06:01 UTC
Manfred Sideous wrote:
Tara Read wrote:
Manfred Sideous wrote:
I am a FC I feel no extra weight from this change and if I did. I get volunteers from fleet to help me.


That's a terrible excuse Manfred. Come on.... so you expect other FC's to force other people to play fleet jockey or get another account. I rest my case.



Teamwork its a alien concept I guess hey?


Not everyone chooses to fly in blobs that can warrant a scouting position.
Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
#857 - 2015-06-12 17:07:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Nasar Vyron
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
Nasar Vyron wrote:
Col North Chanlin wrote:
Just a request; Can you please disclose how much the Nullsec funders paid for the further killing of W-Space life? X


Hate to tell you this buddy, we hate it just as much as you. It's a pointless change that makes the need of +1 cloaky alt all the more important. Good for their bottom line until people throw their hands up and leave from the added monotony with little return.

the same rhetoric was vomited when Phoebe was announced. The game is better and people didn't run out and buy more accounts.


You're right, but hundreds of accounts were unsubbed. I'd like to direct your attention to eveoffline.... Ya. You need to go do some research for what little CCP makes available to us. I know I unsubbed 3 cyno accounts, which also happen to have a few combat pilots attached. I was not nearly alone as I have friends within my own alliance that have gone from 6+ accounts to around 3.

While the players may not be leaving the accounts are, which in the eyes of CCP's wallet is one and the same.


EDIT: While I cannot deny the changes have had some positive effects. I can firmly say that better changes could have been made to reduce the collateral damage. Much like this suggested change and it's effect on relatively innocent WH dwellers while also crippling the ability for small and large gangs alike to catch others hiding in safes - giving a further advantage to the one doing the running and hiding.

PS- Have fun catching that super safe logging in under 30 seconds when you have to probe the ship, then warp your probe ship in, then the dictor/hic.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#858 - 2015-06-12 17:12:03 UTC
Ele Rebellion wrote:
HTC NecoSino wrote:
They have to get their return off buying a CSM, dontchyaknow.
#RecallCorbexx.


Funny how CCP Larrikin mentioned Corbexx by name in post #104 as if he's defending him. (maybe CCP Larrikin is actually GSF Larrikin)


CCP Larrikin wrote:
Corbexx brought these up while we where talking to the CSM about the change.




Larrikin came to CCP via PL and NCdot, not GSF
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#859 - 2015-06-12 17:12:55 UTC
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
Nasar Vyron wrote:
Col North Chanlin wrote:
Just a request; Can you please disclose how much the Nullsec funders paid for the further killing of W-Space life? X


Hate to tell you this buddy, we hate it just as much as you. It's a pointless change that makes the need of +1 cloaky alt all the more important. Good for their bottom line until people throw their hands up and leave from the added monotony with little return.

the same rhetoric was vomited when Phoebe was announced. The game is better and people didn't run out and buy more accounts.



I unsubbed 18 accounts, but i still play on plenty of accounts, but overall -18 after phoebe
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#860 - 2015-06-12 17:15:54 UTC
Jeff Kione wrote:
Querns wrote:
The knock-on effects to wormhole space may even be intentional!


Right, because there was a problem in w-space that needed to be solved. That's just nonsense.

That's just, like, your opinion, man.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.