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[AEGIS] Fleet Warp Changes - Please see devblog!

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Bowfingerz
Super Villains
Pandemic Horde
#801 - 2015-06-12 15:28:44 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
I guess I just don't understand what this goal achieves:
Quote:

The goal of these changes is to encourage more individual fleet member participation and reduce the speed at which fleets can get on top of targets (e.g bombers)


Reducing the speed of fleet to target doesn't create more engagement.
Reducing the speed of fleet to target doesn't change any imbalances or fleet metas
Reducing the speed of fleet to target doesn't change anything of any other relevance other than to add annoyance to almost everyone in game.


Besides, if the goal is JUST to reduce speed of fleet to target, then why not just make all ships in fleet warp fly at a given slow speed like 1AU a sec... It would be really helpful if when you talk about changes you talk about why you have your goal and what the end game actually is.



'The aim of this patch is to try to discourage people from multi boxing in pvp' ..... not hard to see that.
Valterra Craven
#802 - 2015-06-12 15:31:44 UTC
Bowfingerz wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
I guess I just don't understand what this goal achieves:
Quote:

The goal of these changes is to encourage more individual fleet member participation and reduce the speed at which fleets can get on top of targets (e.g bombers)


Reducing the speed of fleet to target doesn't create more engagement.
Reducing the speed of fleet to target doesn't change any imbalances or fleet metas
Reducing the speed of fleet to target doesn't change anything of any other relevance other than to add annoyance to almost everyone in game.


Besides, if the goal is JUST to reduce speed of fleet to target, then why not just make all ships in fleet warp fly at a given slow speed like 1AU a sec... It would be really helpful if when you talk about changes you talk about why you have your goal and what the end game actually is.



'The aim of this patch is to try to discourage people from multi boxing in pvp' ..... not hard to see that.


Which it doesn't even achieve. The only way to do that would be to remove fleet warp in all situations entirely.
Ralen Zateki
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#803 - 2015-06-12 15:34:56 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
36 pages of tears... well done. My tear cup runneth over.

The fix is simple: have someone in a covops ships warp first, then FC (or individual members, or wing commanders) warps fleet to them. Fixed.

Such a simple solution. Eve is not dying. Fleet combat is not dead. Almost nothing to see here. Carry on.


Why are we fixing and solving what previously was a non issue? And I agree, your solution will be what we need to do, so yea whatever but....

I suspect most of the time the warp in is gonna be a dual boxing FC alt...which is just going to be another layer of **** to manage.

My objection is more aimed at where did this change come from and why is CCP spending resources on an at best inconvenience item that isn't going to add do much to achieve the intent? Especially as other issues go unresolved, and Fozzie doc has not yet been implemented (and afaik they've yet to. Resolve the implementation of flexible time zone options)

I mean, if you're going to start messing with core systems like fleet mechanics isn't that worth a more thought out debate over a bit of time?
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#804 - 2015-06-12 15:42:45 UTC
Wow, I go away for 3 days and this **** pops up?

CCP ya don goofd.

This is no fun at all...

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
oien cabrereas
Gold Trading Inc..
#805 - 2015-06-12 15:44:08 UTC
This change to fleet warps really sucks for people who live in WH space. :P

-1 for this idea
Kurt Hectic
Doped Player's Inc.
#806 - 2015-06-12 15:44:56 UTC
more ******** changes... do u guys want us to shoot another monument ?.... cause we can u know...

also if u wanna get rid of kill2 i'am sure there's a easier way then fubarring up the game so 200k or more subs get cancelled and ur forced to lay off a buncha scrubs...
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#807 - 2015-06-12 15:52:15 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
I guess I just don't understand what this goal achieves:
Quote:

The goal of these changes is to encourage more individual fleet member participation and reduce the speed at which fleets can get on top of targets (e.g bombers)


Reducing the speed of fleet to target doesn't create more engagement.
Reducing the speed of fleet to target doesn't change any imbalances or fleet metas
Reducing the speed of fleet to target doesn't change anything of any other relevance other than to add annoyance to almost everyone in game.


Besides, if the goal is JUST to reduce speed of fleet to target, then why not just make all ships in fleet warp fly at a given slow speed like 1AU a sec... It would be really helpful if when you talk about changes you talk about why you have your goal and what the end game actually is.

I daresay their opinion is that combat probing allows fleets to engage too quickly. You're falling into the trap of commoditizing Eve gameplay under the monkey filth that is the contemporary use of the word "content."

Also, reducing the power of bombers almost certainly will allow the fleet meta to shift, as fleet meta is currently dominated by ships whose vulnerability to bombs is at a minimum.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Rutger Centemus
Joint Empire Squad
#808 - 2015-06-12 15:54:10 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hopelesshobo wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:

As announced on the o7 show we are making some changes to fleet warp. Fleet Commanders, Wing Commanders & Squad Commanders will no longer be able to warp to anything a fleet member couldn’t warp to on their own. This includes –
  • Bookmarks


    • Does this include corporation bookmarks that the person in the same corp could warp to?


    Yes. You can only fleet warp to things that any member of your fleet could warp to, no matter what corp or alliances they are a part of.

    Incomplete answer.
    If the fleet consists of members of 1 corp, all could warp to a corp BM and (according to your answer) should be able to get fleetwarped there.
    If the fleet consists of people that all have the same BM, in either personal or corp BMs, they can all warp to that BM and should (as per your logic) be able to get fleetwarped there.

    So, which is it - can't fleetwarp to BMs [period] or can't fleetwarp to locations some of your fleetmembers can't warp themselves to...?
    Gorski Car
    #809 - 2015-06-12 15:55:22 UTC
    get good.

    Collect this post
    Querns
    Science and Trade Institute
    Caldari State
    #810 - 2015-06-12 15:56:40 UTC
    Ralen Zateki wrote:
    Soldarius wrote:
    36 pages of tears... well done. My tear cup runneth over.

    The fix is simple: have someone in a covops ships warp first, then FC (or individual members, or wing commanders) warps fleet to them. Fixed.

    Such a simple solution. Eve is not dying. Fleet combat is not dead. Almost nothing to see here. Carry on.


    Why are we fixing and solving what previously was a non issue? And I agree, your solution will be what we need to do, so yea whatever but....

    I suspect most of the time the warp in is gonna be a dual boxing FC alt...which is just going to be another layer of **** to manage.

    My objection is more aimed at where did this change come from and why is CCP spending resources on an at best inconvenience item that isn't going to add do much to achieve the intent? Especially as other issues go unresolved, and Fozzie doc has not yet been implemented (and afaik they've yet to. Resolve the implementation of flexible time zone options)

    I mean, if you're going to start messing with core systems like fleet mechanics isn't that worth a more thought out debate over a bit of time?


    Please refrain from using specious argument tactics.

    For reference, the two you used are:

    * Assumption that development time in Eve is completely fungible between concerns. It's not, and CCP, being an entity that hires more than one person to develop the game, is capable of doing multiple things at once.
    * Declaration that the game change in question cannot be implemented until every niggling issue, imagined or real, has been thoroughly debated and solved. We don't need to cure cancer in order to reduce a fever or bandage a wound.

    This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
    Rowells
    Blackwater USA Inc.
    Pandemic Horde
    #811 - 2015-06-12 15:56:52 UTC
    Rutger Centemus wrote:
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Hopelesshobo wrote:
    CCP Larrikin wrote:

    As announced on the o7 show we are making some changes to fleet warp. Fleet Commanders, Wing Commanders & Squad Commanders will no longer be able to warp to anything a fleet member couldn’t warp to on their own. This includes –
  • Bookmarks


    • Does this include corporation bookmarks that the person in the same corp could warp to?


    Yes. You can only fleet warp to things that any member of your fleet could warp to, no matter what corp or alliances they are a part of.

    Incomplete answer.
    If the fleet consists of members of 1 corp, all could warp to a corp BM and (according to your answer) should be able to get fleetwarped there.
    If the fleet consists of people that all have the same BM, in either personal or corp BMs, they can all warp to that BM and should (as per your logic) be able to get fleetwarped there.

    So, which is it - can't fleetwarp to BMs [period] or can't fleetwarp to locations some of your fleetmembers can't warp themselves to...?

    It doesn't matter what your fleet comp is. The same rules apply to a fleet of ransoms as do a fleet of corporates.

    Fleet warp does not look at your corp/alliance data, which includes corp/alliance bookmarks.
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #812 - 2015-06-12 15:57:44 UTC
    Leeluvv wrote:
    baltec1 wrote:
    So use a warp speed rigged cov-ops or interceptor.


    So you want your probing ship to potentially have no probing bonus and no probing rigs?


    When did CCP remove cov-ops bonuses?
    Rowells
    Blackwater USA Inc.
    Pandemic Horde
    #813 - 2015-06-12 16:01:13 UTC
    Repeating again,

    Please take a look at expanding ships that can fit probes without massive gimping of fits. Current limits in this category are covops, t3s, and D3s, which actually affects the fleet comp and strength at smaller gang levels.
    Hendrink Collie
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #814 - 2015-06-12 16:03:29 UTC
    Generally I am for these changes. I think it will add some interesting dynamics and will open up doctrine choices that were over-shadowed with the current META of overpowered probing/fleet warp mechanics. There is one thing I'd like to change though:

    Only in wormhole space, allow for fleet warps to cosmic signatures. Currently these changes disproportional affect wormholers, and I believe the proposed changes wouldn't benefit overall tactics in wormhole space compared to everywhere else.

    Ralen Zateki
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #815 - 2015-06-12 16:04:25 UTC
    Querns wrote:
    Ralen Zateki wrote:
    Soldarius wrote:
    36 pages of tears... well done. My tear cup runneth over.

    The fix is simple: have someone in a covops ships warp first, then FC (or individual members, or wing commanders) warps fleet to them. Fixed.

    Such a simple solution. Eve is not dying. Fleet combat is not dead. Almost nothing to see here. Carry on.


    Why are we fixing and solving what previously was a non issue? And I agree, your solution will be what we need to do, so yea whatever but....

    I suspect most of the time the warp in is gonna be a dual boxing FC alt...which is just going to be another layer of **** to manage.

    My objection is more aimed at where did this change come from and why is CCP spending resources on an at best inconvenience item that isn't going to add do much to achieve the intent? Especially as other issues go unresolved, and Fozzie doc has not yet been implemented (and afaik they've yet to. Resolve the implementation of flexible time zone options)

    I mean, if you're going to start messing with core systems like fleet mechanics isn't that worth a more thought out debate over a bit of time?


    Please refrain from using specious argument tactics.

    For reference, the two you used are:

    * Assumption that development time in Eve is completely fungible between concerns. It's not, and CCP, being an entity that hires more than one person to develop the game, is capable of doing multiple things at once.
    * Declaration that the game change in question cannot be implemented until every niggling issue, imagined or real, has been thoroughly debated and solved. We don't need to cure cancer in order to reduce a fever or bandage a wound.


    I figured all that was a safe assumption. But let me spell it out so that you don't have to think too hard:

    Lots of change right now as it is, peeps still curious about how Fozzie sov will play out and be actually implemented, lots of uncertainty about super cap future. From a messaging perspective I think CCP lost their focus on this one and didn't think through the angles before rushing to conclusions and a delivery date. Seems that's a waste of resources no?

    Or is that too specious for you still?
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #816 - 2015-06-12 16:05:29 UTC
    Elana Apgar wrote:
    Dear CCP Larkin and CCP Fozzie,

    This is game breaking for W-Space.

    And here are the two main reasons:

    The main game breaking reason is:

    When travelling in W-Space AS A FLEET you almost always have to Fleet Warp from a bookmark to travel from Wormhole to Wormhole until you get to your destination Wormhole. Sometimes you engage hostiles on a wormhole, other times you Fleet Warp to a specific location, whether it be a safe, bounce off of a tower, a tractor unit/wreck, or even a friendly tower.

    If we cannot move as a fleet, this will absolutely break Fleet engagements in W-Space. Just like in Null-Sec it is important to move as a fleet, but unlike Null Sec we do not have Gates on our overview or Stations on our overview. We use bookmarks for safes, wormholes, and POS'.

    How can you seriously expect us to do anything in a coordinated manner if we cannot warp as a group? Have you even been involved in wormhole fleet fights to see how it all works? If you'd like specific examples of how various wormhole engagements would be impossible, I'd be more then happy to supply them.

    The second reason:

    When in wormhole space, you sometimes have to combat scan a small ship to kill him. And often times you need to "throw" a tackle ship at that ship you are combat scanning. With these changes it will be near impossible to catch a small ship because by the time your combat scan ship lands the target will quite possibly be gone, or if you tackle in the scan ship, it might not survive until help arrives.

    I am strongly URGING you to reconsider how this change will IRREPARABLY DAMAGE W-Space before implementing this. W-Space in many ways is struggling, and this could very well destroy it. I really don't understand why CCP feels the need to have all changes in the game revolve around Null Sec.

    Thank you for your time.



    one pilot in a fast interceptor fixes your problem.
    Rekatan
    We Heart U
    #817 - 2015-06-12 16:05:46 UTC
    Please consider the option presented by abdel_abu on Reddit at http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/39kcrq/fleet_warp_nerf_alternative_delayed_warp_spool_up/

    This is seriously valuable feedback, which provides a happy compromise while adding so much potential intensity to the game, rather than headache.
    Leeluvv
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #818 - 2015-06-12 16:06:54 UTC
    Hendrink Collie wrote:
    Generally I am for these changes. I think it will add some interesting dynamics and will open up doctrine choices that were over-shadowed with the current META of overpowered probing/fleet warp mechanics. There is one thing I'd like to change though:

    Only in wormhole space, allow for fleet warps to cosmic signatures. Currently these changes disproportional affect wormholers, and I believe the proposed changes wouldn't benefit overall tactics in wormhole space compared to everywhere else.



    If you have to compromise the implementation, then the solution you have chosen to implement is flawed and not actually fit for purpose. This is the classic case of a solution looking for a problem.
    Querns
    Science and Trade Institute
    Caldari State
    #819 - 2015-06-12 16:08:12 UTC
    Ralen Zateki wrote:

    I figured all that was a safe assumption. But let me spell it out so that you don't have to think too hard:

    Lots of change right now as it is, peeps still curious about how Fozzie sov will play out and be actually implemented, lots of uncertainty about super cap future. From a messaging perspective I think CCP lost their focus on this one and didn't think through the angles before rushing to conclusions and a delivery date. Seems that's a waste of resources no?

    Or is that too specious for you still?

    Yes. You're still assuming that developer time at CCP is completely fungible, and that work in one department somehow necessarily detracts from another.

    This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
    Sir Livingston
    Doomheim
    #820 - 2015-06-12 16:08:14 UTC
    Solo buff!

    Sci-fi games as played by an earthbound human in the 21st century http://www.youtube.com/JonnyPew