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[AEGIS] Fleet Warp Changes - Please see devblog!

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Captain Awkward
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#541 - 2015-06-12 08:55:45 UTC
Prince Golem wrote:
This affects a lot of people. If you go ahead with this change please enable people that would normally warp the Fleet/wing/squad to warp to a broadcasted place in space e.g. bookmark/probe result. Thereby allowing the fleet to warp to these places. Sounds like a good compromise, I hope.


I support this. Warping to something as a fleet is important. Taking away the fleet warp option from the FC and shifting it to the Fleet members is a good thing IMO, but I cant support taking away to ability of a fleet to move to a bookmark or signature without having a fleet member allready on grid.

Broadcasting bookmark or signature destinations to fleet members should be enabled to keep the current mobility of a fleet but get the responsibility for movement back to the fleet members and away from the FC.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#542 - 2015-06-12 09:00:49 UTC
Captain Awkward wrote:
Prince Golem wrote:
This affects a lot of people. If you go ahead with this change please enable people that would normally warp the Fleet/wing/squad to warp to a broadcasted place in space e.g. bookmark/probe result. Thereby allowing the fleet to warp to these places. Sounds like a good compromise, I hope.


I support this. Warping to something as a fleet is important. Taking away the fleet warp option from the FC and shifting it to the Fleet members is a good thing IMO, but I cant support taking away to ability of a fleet to move to a bookmark or signature without having a fleet member allready on grid.

Broadcasting bookmark or signature destinations to fleet members should be enabled to keep the current mobility of a fleet but get the responsibility for movement back to the fleet members and away from the FC.



Not just that, there's now NO WAY to regulate fleet warp speeds without a "thing" to get to first.
Bairfhionn Isu
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
#543 - 2015-06-12 09:01:02 UTC
I had too much PVP in wormholes anyway. Now I can PVE in peace.

What a nonsense change to "fix" something that isn't even broken.
Cuchulin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#544 - 2015-06-12 09:10:00 UTC
There are several scenarios in which these proposed changes will in my opinion add annoyance to the game:

1.) You are running missions with a group of people. I understand that nerving mission isk output vs time is not neccessarly something you guys are unhappy with, but have you considered that this just adds time for people to sit around and do nothing while waiting for the warps to finish? It would seem to me that in an allready rather slow game as EVE it would be not a good design decision to add time for people to float around and do nothing.

2.) It makes preparation in advance less meaningful. So if I have a group of dedicated people outside primetime that will go around to a hostile system and prepare tactical BMs, currently this is a big advantage. The FC can then have the bookmarks and use them in the fight. In the new proposed system I need to have someone in a cloaked ship or interceptor to provide fleet warpins on these locations. In any case it will make the fleet slower, which is again the intended outcome I understand, but it also makes the individuals less meaningfull preparing the BMs in the first place, is this also as intended?

3.) It either puts more stress on the FC or it creates an utterly boring fleet role. So either the FC needs to have yet another cloaky alt or interceptor alt to provide warpins on bookmarks and scan results, or this role needs to be filled by another fleet member. Have you considered that sitting in an interceptor (or cov-ops) for a whole fleet fight just to give warpins on bookmarks, but being unable to shoot anything, is an utterly dull and boring role to play? I get that in a realistic (whatever that means for internet spaceships :D) scenario it would be a desireable and important role to fill .... but in the reality of the game a large percentage of people would like to shoot stuff...

4.) Warping to locations in tidi. Have you considered that in big fleet fights with tidi active the effect of this change will be massively amplyfied? So in these allready extremly slow scenarios you would potentially double the time to warp to a scan result or a bookmark. So instead of people sitting idle for 5 minutes it might be 10 minutes afterwards. Do you think it is good gameplay to sit idle for 10 minutes while waiting for a warp to finish (number is pulled from thin air, please replace with more realistic number if you have it) ?

Anyway, I guess my point is, not every decision that might make sense in terms of balancing things is neccessarly a decision that will increase FUN for people playing the GAME.

Cheers
Cuchulin
Alyla By
#545 - 2015-06-12 09:13:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Alyla By
Once this change would be delivered, the simplest new strategy would be to have a scout on place, telling the fleet to warp at X on him so people could land at the best spot they could fight from.

It'll be easier for people getting ganked (farmers, missionners, miners, whatever else) to defend themselves as long as they are not on a public location, close to the spawn. If they are in a signature they are almost totally safe : they will have to be probed down in any case, the will see the probes on D scan and just hide. They will simply have more time to react unlike the current situation of "I probed a ship, I warp my fleet on it" since they will need to send the scanner first, and then the fleet.

Here is a simple suggestion to counter balance the fact that the overall risks of getting caught in space will be decreased (I like things which explodes. Especially my own ship) : Create a T2 Probes invisible on D-scan Big smile Make those probes only usable with the T2 launcher variant, give them a smaller scan strength. Make them such as it's almost impossible to fit them on combat ships, making the scout a dedicated pilot with dedicated fits for it, not simply a sabre using an expended probe launcher (lulz)
Ogast
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#546 - 2015-06-12 09:14:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Ogast
FT Diomedes wrote:
News flash to CCP: real people who play the game are the most precious asset in this game.

Your changes, however, make the game increasingly tedious and obnoxious to play, which drives away the real people.

** Snip**

You have a very narrow idea of what is fun in Eve - not everyone enjoys your pseudo-solo/small gang elitist PVP mentality. Most people just want to log in and have fun playing Eve with their friends. Make Eve easy to play - not another chore. The challenge should come from the other players, not from the interface or silly restrictions.


Wont post all of his reply even though I agree with every word just to save peoples eyes.

I will admit I don't 'play' EVE for the game anymore I play it for the people. Playing this game built a strong gaming community a community of people that I enjoy talking to on a daily basis.

However, you've slowly changed your game and 'shifted the meta' away from fun to tedium. Once you used to be able to go out in space and engage a small group with your small group of friendly space nerds and duke it out at 0 in an adrenaline fulled death fest where you exploded or they exploded. Now however your small group of friendly space nerds has to contend with this kiting meta of solo orthrus and such pushing their speed far beyond yours due to links and the bonused points and scrams.

Hell I don't even log in anymore much to be honest. I used to log in for action packed brawls and death. I don't want to log in for chasing someone for 15 systems just to lose him at a crossroads.

This new change amplifies this further. You say that you want more individual players in 'important roles' in fleets. However for the space poor among us I don't want to be relegated to scanning and warping so other people can have fun. I want to be getting the 'dank frags' as some would put it. I want to prove I was there with reams of kills or losses showing I was there doing something. Rather than spending most of my time staring at a in-game map watching probes zone in on a fleet that is likely to run as soon as ours appears on grid in deceleration.

Others may say that you could get an interceptor and burn at the enemy fleet to catch them. However anyone with a modicum of thought on that would realize you're going to get shot to **** before you get close enough to them since traversal is a thing but so are bonused webs.

Just focus on Fozziesov. Then if you feel you must do something with this then look at it and take time to do so. Don't throw out an unpolished four week version of this as you're just going to lose customers.

Focus on making the game fun again.
Kwa Zulu
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#547 - 2015-06-12 09:15:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Kwa Zulu
This change is idiotic, bomber fleets are already not that often used anymore and now this will mean the death of any useful sniper doctrine

Also the reasoning to decapitate the effeciency of a fleet based on its FC does not make sense, having a good FC should matter

CCP please do not fricking do this...
Sasha Sen
Hull Zero Two
#548 - 2015-06-12 09:16:56 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
News flash to CCP: real people who play the game are the most precious asset in this game.

Your changes, however, make the game increasingly tedious and obnoxious to play, which drives away the real people.

There is no FC on the cluster who would rather have another alt in fleet than a real person. I already delegate every possible task to my corp mates that I possibly can - the ones I keep for myself are the ones that I cannot delegate to someone who only has one account and will have no fun filling that role.

Come up with some truly rewarding roles for people in fleets. As it is, you keep multiplying the number of thankless roles that are best done on an alt - because your business strategy seems to be to squeeze as much out of the existing humans as possible.

At the same time, you consistently nerf the ability for one player to control multiple ships doing the same task (a way of reducing the tedium of running the same stale sites, anomalies, and missions over and over again).

Small gang FC's already rely heavily on bookmarks and probers. It is already hard enough to nail down some elite PVP nano/kite fleet with off-grid boosters. Now you are making it even harder to get a decent warp-in on top of them and their OGB. You are making it harder to avoid their drag bubbles as they run away because they couldn't get any kills against your counter fleet.

You are encouraging players to rely more and more on individual bookmarks. Don't those create some issues for the hamsters? When every player in the alliance needs to have all the pings on every celestial bookmarked at all times, so they can warp themselves to the right point and avoid a drag bubble as they run from a larger gang, that's going to add up.

Additionally, in place of warping a gang to bookmarks, I'll be fleet warping them at range to a cloaked alt. It will just be more tedious. I'm perfectly happy to ask a new player to be the +1 or +2 scout. They get some experience and fun out of it (unless space is totally empty, as it all too often seems to be). Asking him to warp to his bookmark 200 off the gate, so I can warp the fleet to him is not a rewarding role for anyone. I'm not maintaining multiple accounts so I can have another alt sitting off the gate where I know I will need a ping - I maintain multiple accounts so I can get through the grind part of Eve faster and get back to leading small groups in search of content.

In the past I described Eve as "white-knuckled, trembling hands, exciting." I'd literally sweat during a fight. Now the words I would use are "tedious, a chore, like a second job." The only reason I still play or stay at all engaged with Eve is because I feel I owe it to my friends to keep logging in and participating. My masochism is steadily wearing thin. Playing Eve should not be an unpleasant or boring experience, yet that is what you have been doing over the course of the past year. I accepted jump fatigue because it promised good things - it was bitter medicine that might save Eve. Now we have fatigue, entosis, and this nonsense.

You have a very narrow idea of what is fun in Eve - not everyone enjoys your pseudo-solo/small gang elitist PVP mentality. Most people just want to log in and have fun playing Eve with their friends. Make Eve easy to play - not another chore. The challenge should come from the other players, not from the interface or silly restrictions.


Maybe your aspirations in EvE to command a large fleet are a bit more than you can handle then?

Do you really have 100 friends in a fleet or they are just boots following you around with aligns and F1's? I mean if you have that many friends statistically at least one should be more then happy to fly around in a cloaky ship and give warp ins.

Recruit people who enjoy setting up warp ins?

"I'm perfectly happy to ask a new player to be the +1 or +2 scout. They get some experience and fun out of it (unless space is totally empty, as it all too often seems to be)."

Ever wonder why space is totally empty? Having the tools to synchronize movement of a large fleet with a handful of pilots is probably one of the reasons.

Read a book?
Thea Yulivee
Hobbs End Industries
#549 - 2015-06-12 09:17:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Thea Yulivee
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
Kathy Iron wrote:
Shilalasar wrote:
Joran Jackson wrote:
I think this is a fantastic change for wormholes. Anything that makes it harder for 50 man WH fleets to function gets a thumbs up from me.


You do realize this does nothing to those fleets but hurts the smaller ones way more? Starting with the fact that the almost all big groups are in one corp only and will have access to corpbookmarks from the initial scout.

What this change does is it kills NPSI fleets., esp in wormholespace. Have fun giving everyone in fleet the bookmarks beforehand. Multiple people from the same corp in fleet might help not a bit since they need to have corproles for bookmarks.
This is especially true in wormholespace where you need a ****-ton of bookmarks just of the holes.
Flying through a big system or even thera? "FC, call me in 5 minutes when you land so we can warp too"
Forgot to copy one of the bookmarks? well, sucks to be you.
Someone went the wrong way? You are stranded alone until someone comes back to get you. OFC that will polarize this person and force it to do nothing for 5 minutes and be left behind.
Corpbookmarks haven´t updated yet? Well, see you in 5 minutes.
You found someone in a sig you do not have a bookmark for? Combatprobe him down and hope he is still in there not just by the time you warp there, but everybody warps to you too. You better scanned in a tanky T3 and not came through one of these great only-the-smallest-of-ships wormholes. Also huge boost to WCS, everybody love those.

As enough people have stated it also really hurts group PvE that isn´t anomrunning. Bestcase it double the traveltime (superfun with the most popular PvE ships being BS sized), worstcase "have fun tanking the site alone for 30 sec until our RR gets here too".

For PvP this is a huge boost to kiting. You get a cloakyprober next to a kitingfleet, by the time your buddies land near you the kiters have made at least another 10km and are out of webrange. You use a noncloaky to keep up with them, free killmail thanks to the addition of RLMLs.

Things will never warp at the same speed, tackle lands and gets faceraped, logi lands and looks stupid, mainfleet lands and is in exactly the same position as pre-warp. And then land the capitals and ask themselves why te grid is empty. Unless you are flying ishtars, T3s or mordus´ ships, because all of those are so little used anyways compared to BCs and BS who get shafted again. Oh, and you better hope everybody has all lvl5 navigationskills, if you FC some new players you will be out of warp long before they are.

It takes away the homefield advantage of FCs with 20+ tacticals around every gate in the homeregion. Good and bad at the same time but again a huge boost to kiting.


Again, this change only supports blobbing and excessive use of multiboxing, like so many other changes we have seen lately.


CCP Larrikin wrote:
Both of these points are solid. Corbexx brought these up while we where talking to the CSM about the change.
Regarding slowing down the speed of sites, given the potential profitability of wormhole space, we don't consider this a major negative.
Regarding movement fleets though WH space, we have something we're working on for this. That said some of the feedback we've received is mixed. Reducing power projection though WH space (for both WH residence & passes though) not seen as all bad.


And again, lowend residents get the shaft because C5/6s. "Potential profitability" with nanoribbons creeping around 2M a piece...
Warping to fleetmembers 0 on a hole needs them to be decloaked, let´s also anounce it in local, just in case they do not have a scout out. Sneaking up on someone in a site only works if it is not littered with asteroids, LCOs, huge gasclouds or just sleepers spawning and burning around.
This change effects 5 man escalationfarmers NOT AT ALL, it is even a boost for their security.

I'm glad I read through this whole thread because this is my exact feeling. Put into words exactly what I was thinking.


Just put a guy on a WH for a warp in, is that really hard to do???



the ignorance..wow

whilst i agree with the changes in general, just the simple fact that smaller corps in WH Space can't have alt-scouts at every WH in the chain they are using, makes me wonder if CCP really thought this through. For bigger corps this won't change to much in the way of handling their day to day routine, but when it comes to small corps or multi-corp fleets this is a major pain

I agree with the statements above, that we need other options to warp to wormholes as a fleet or at least broadcast a bookmark so that every member of the fleet can warp himself. I really hope that the thing Larkin mentioned they are working on, adresses this issue...the way i see things right now, this might help larger w-space corps/alliances and hurt the smaller ones
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#550 - 2015-06-12 09:20:23 UTC
This is a big hit to smaller fleets. Now we need to sacrifice a alt/player just to wrap as a group? WTF? why not just make warp speed random and don't let anything land as a planed out fleet comp?

Also this won't affect bomber waves. We never used fleet warps to do them in the first place. But where are all these mass bomber waves? They don't show up on killboards or something? cus i just don't see them.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
Alenn G'kar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#551 - 2015-06-12 09:20:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Alenn G'kar
Where can I sign the pettition!
Bill Lane
Strategic Insanity
FUBAR.
#552 - 2015-06-12 09:23:23 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi Gentle Space Foke,


Q: CCP, why you do this?
A: We want transfer more responsibility for the success of a fleet from its FC to its members.



So you want to take away responsibilities of the FLEET COMMANDER to give more to members.....FLEET COMMANDER to me implies he leads the fleet. FFS

WTF are you doing CCP? All these stupid changes you have been making are really pissing people off. Where are the damn fixes we've been asking about for years? Corp management, thousand cuts, all that? Last time you stopped listening to your customers, you had to issue a public apology to keep the game alive. Don't think you can just do that every couple years, go off on a tangent for a year, apologize, slowly stop listening, another tangent a year later, apologize, etc. Stupid, absolutely stupid.

Back on the issue at hand, so the fleet commander can't warp the fleet he commands to their POS? Are you kidding me?

WAKE UP CCP! You guys are making some really stupid decisions lately.

Military Gamers gaming community

FUBAR's Website
Thea Yulivee
Hobbs End Industries
#553 - 2015-06-12 09:24:46 UTC
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
This is a big hit to smaller fleets. Now we need to sacrifice a alt/player just to wrap as a group? WTF? why not just make warp speed random and don't let anything land as a planed out fleet comp?

Also this won't affect bomber waves. We never used fleet warps to do them in the first place. But where are all these mass bomber waves? They don't show up on killboards or something? cus i just don't see them.


you mainly don't see the bombers that much anymore because the doctrines of 0.0 have shifted to adapt to the danger of bombers - but this limits what can be fielded at all
The changes with regards to bombers are not designed to kill bombing runs, but to extend the time window the FC has on grid before the bomberwing is in position
Xzeratuhl
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#554 - 2015-06-12 09:25:40 UTC
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
Xzeratuhl wrote:
Honnestly CCP?!


this change will really suck! only big alys / corps will have enought "scout chars" to have warpins.

-1


That is not true, 99% of small groups will do just fine with the scouts. And that 1% will adapt pretty quickly because the entry level for that role is very small.



I dont agree. You have no chance to have your fleet together. The warpspeed from ships are diffrent.
Your smal fleet get spread out.
Did you even life in a wh? you know how annoing it is to come back into youre hole after get potted?

open a suicide squad with no honor!

If this change will come, eve get very much trail acc only for warpins. and after the trail ends the chars are useless.
Sasha Sen
Hull Zero Two
#555 - 2015-06-12 09:27:15 UTC
Thea Yulivee wrote:



the ignorance..wow

whilst i agree with the changes in general, just the simple fact that smaller corps in WH Space can't have alt-scouts at every WH in the chain they are using, makes me wonder if CCP really thought this through. For bigger corps this won't change to much in the way of handling their day to day routine, but when it comes to small corps or multi-corp fleets this is a major pain

I agree with the statements above, that we need other options to warp to wormholes as a fleet or at least broadcast a bookmark so that every member of the fleet can warp himself. I really hope that the thing Larkin mentioned they are working on, adresses this issue...the way i see things right now, this might help larger w-space corps/alliances and hurt the smaller ones


I am confused, why would a small corp need an alt on every wh in the chain? If they are at the wh they can bm it and have the warp in? If there is another corp in the alliance they can scan it or fleet up and warp to person who does have the Bm? Or share BM with making copies?

And really if the new structures are out and asset security is handled within a corp both ways without restrictions on activities that require a POS / Citadel whatever, then perhaps being in a small corp will not be as common as now, don't you think?
Neo Legath
Little Red Riding Hole
Wolves Amongst Strangers
#556 - 2015-06-12 09:27:46 UTC
Bill Lane wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi Gentle Space Foke,


Q: CCP, why you do this?
A: We want transfer more responsibility for the success of a fleet from its FC to its members.



So you want to take away responsibilities of the FLEET COMMANDER to give more to members.....FLEET COMMANDER to me implies he leads the fleet. FFS

WTF are you doing CCP? All these stupid changes you have been making are really pissing people off. Where are the damn fixes we've been asking about for years? Corp management, thousand cuts, all that? Last time you stopped listening to your customers, you had to issue a public apology to keep the game alive. Don't think you can just do that every couple years, go off on a tangent for a year, apologize, slowly stop listening, another tangent a year later, apologize, etc. Stupid, absolutely stupid.

Back on the issue at hand, so the fleet commander can't warp the fleet he commands to their POS? Are you kidding me?

WAKE UP CCP! You guys are making some really stupid decisions lately.



Lets agree on Fubar....
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#557 - 2015-06-12 09:30:44 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
Sasha Sen wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
My post.


Maybe your aspirations in EvE to command a large fleet are a bit more than you can handle then?

Do you really have 100 friends in a fleet or they are just boots following you around with aligns and F1's? I mean if you have that many friends statistically at least one should be more then happy to fly around in a cloaky ship and give warp ins.

Recruit people who enjoy setting up warp ins?

"I'm perfectly happy to ask a new player to be the +1 or +2 scout. They get some experience and fun out of it (unless space is totally empty, as it all too often seems to be)."

Ever wonder why space is totally empty? Having the tools to synchronize movement of a large fleet with a handful of pilots is probably one of the reasons.

Read a book?




I have no aspirations to lead a large fleet, just as I have no desire to be one more Ishtar in the mob. When I play, I lead gangs of less than 20 characters. Each human matters in a fight like that.

Recruiting people who enjoy setting up warp ins? If I could find people like that, I'd sell them to exotic brothels in need of more submissives/bottoms.

Not to mention that would require there to actually be lots of new players joining Eve and staying subscribed. I'd happily recruit them if most recruits weren't bored players from hostile alliances looking for content elsewhere or trying to get a spy in somewhere.

Space is empty because people are not logging in right now.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#558 - 2015-06-12 09:35:17 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Sasha Sen wrote:
Thea Yulivee wrote:



the ignorance..wow

whilst i agree with the changes in general, just the simple fact that smaller corps in WH Space can't have alt-scouts at every WH in the chain they are using, makes me wonder if CCP really thought this through. For bigger corps this won't change to much in the way of handling their day to day routine, but when it comes to small corps or multi-corp fleets this is a major pain

I agree with the statements above, that we need other options to warp to wormholes as a fleet or at least broadcast a bookmark so that every member of the fleet can warp himself. I really hope that the thing Larkin mentioned they are working on, adresses this issue...the way i see things right now, this might help larger w-space corps/alliances and hurt the smaller ones


I am confused, why would a small corp need an alt on every wh in the chain? If they are at the wh they can bm it and have the warp in? If there is another corp in the alliance they can scan it or fleet up and warp to person who does have the Bm? Or share BM with making copies?


Ships warp at different speeds. Without SOMEONE in place first, you CANNOT regulate the warp speeds.

How long do you think tackle is going to last against an enemy fleet when they're the only ships on grid?

Logi will take roughly twice as long to land as tackle, by then your tackle is already dead.


Kspace is slightly better as they could fleet warp to gates, but they now lose the ability to fleet warp to even a corp perch to avoid bubbles. The fleet arrives piecemeal.


Didn't want to keep that fleet together anyway........
Kwa Zulu
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#559 - 2015-06-12 09:35:32 UTC
Thea Yulivee wrote:

you mainly don't see the bombers that much anymore because the doctrines of 0.0 have shifted to adapt to the danger of bombers - but this limits what can be fielded at all



Dominixes, rattlesnakes, geddons, they still get used a lot. Even mining fleets are prime bomber targets and theres no lack of these either. Somehow however you barely see proper bombing runs done anymore. No your theory of that doctrines are continuously taking bombing into account does not make sense.
Rekatan
We Heart U
#560 - 2015-06-12 09:36:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Rekatan
The unintended consequences for this so far outweigh any potential benefit it's insane it's even being considered. I generally try to keep an open mind with controversial changes to Eve because a lot of times there's method behind the madness, but this one is just madness... Even if the goal is to nerf combat probing into the ground, what makes it a good idea to add massive headache to W-space and missions? I live out in W-space and I can't fathom losing fleet warp to signatures until the bookmark delay is fixed...

This really just feels lazy. If this solution was settled on because of legacy code then we'll happily wait for the legacy code to be handled, rather than this rushed change in an attempt to fix something that few people even recognize as a problem, while rendering whole styles of play impractical and unenjoyable.