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[AEGIS] Fleet Warp Changes - Please see devblog!

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Anna Finster
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#501 - 2015-06-12 07:40:02 UTC
Okay usually I don't participate in these threadnoughts but I feel I have to state that among the ocean of tears there are a few who like this change. Personally, I'm looking forward to it and the need for more individual piloting.

Fellow capsuleers, please consider that everyone will be affected by this in the same way, so lets htfu and deal with it I guess.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#502 - 2015-06-12 07:41:36 UTC
Additionally, the dual implication that one somehow has no verifiable skill at Eve: Online if they haven't undocked an ishtar, and the denouncement of being an ishtar pilot as requiring no skill leaves me in a well of observed cognitive dissonance so vast and churning that I think I'm getting motion sickness just thinking about it.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Kathy Iron
PEN1S HOLDINGS
#503 - 2015-06-12 07:44:27 UTC
Shilalasar wrote:
Joran Jackson wrote:
I think this is a fantastic change for wormholes. Anything that makes it harder for 50 man WH fleets to function gets a thumbs up from me.


You do realize this does nothing to those fleets but hurts the smaller ones way more? Starting with the fact that the almost all big groups are in one corp only and will have access to corpbookmarks from the initial scout.

What this change does is it kills NPSI fleets., esp in wormholespace. Have fun giving everyone in fleet the bookmarks beforehand. Multiple people from the same corp in fleet might help not a bit since they need to have corproles for bookmarks.
This is especially true in wormholespace where you need a ****-ton of bookmarks just of the holes.
Flying through a big system or even thera? "FC, call me in 5 minutes when you land so we can warp too"
Forgot to copy one of the bookmarks? well, sucks to be you.
Someone went the wrong way? You are stranded alone until someone comes back to get you. OFC that will polarize this person and force it to do nothing for 5 minutes and be left behind.
Corpbookmarks haven´t updated yet? Well, see you in 5 minutes.
You found someone in a sig you do not have a bookmark for? Combatprobe him down and hope he is still in there not just by the time you warp there, but everybody warps to you too. You better scanned in a tanky T3 and not came through one of these great only-the-smallest-of-ships wormholes. Also huge boost to WCS, everybody love those.

As enough people have stated it also really hurts group PvE that isn´t anomrunning. Bestcase it double the traveltime (superfun with the most popular PvE ships being BS sized), worstcase "have fun tanking the site alone for 30 sec until our RR gets here too".

For PvP this is a huge boost to kiting. You get a cloakyprober next to a kitingfleet, by the time your buddies land near you the kiters have made at least another 10km and are out of webrange. You use a noncloaky to keep up with them, free killmail thanks to the addition of RLMLs.

Things will never warp at the same speed, tackle lands and gets faceraped, logi lands and looks stupid, mainfleet lands and is in exactly the same position as pre-warp. And then land the capitals and ask themselves why te grid is empty. Unless you are flying ishtars, T3s or mordus´ ships, because all of those are so little used anyways compared to BCs and BS who get shafted again. Oh, and you better hope everybody has all lvl5 navigationskills, if you FC some new players you will be out of warp long before they are.

It takes away the homefield advantage of FCs with 20+ tacticals around every gate in the homeregion. Good and bad at the same time but again a huge boost to kiting.


Again, this change only supports blobbing and excessive use of multiboxing, like so many other changes we have seen lately.


CCP Larrikin wrote:
Both of these points are solid. Corbexx brought these up while we where talking to the CSM about the change.
Regarding slowing down the speed of sites, given the potential profitability of wormhole space, we don't consider this a major negative.
Regarding movement fleets though WH space, we have something we're working on for this. That said some of the feedback we've received is mixed. Reducing power projection though WH space (for both WH residence & passes though) not seen as all bad.


And again, lowend residents get the shaft because C5/6s. "Potential profitability" with nanoribbons creeping around 2M a piece...
Warping to fleetmembers 0 on a hole needs them to be decloaked, let´s also anounce it in local, just in case they do not have a scout out. Sneaking up on someone in a site only works if it is not littered with asteroids, LCOs, huge gasclouds or just sleepers spawning and burning around.
This change effects 5 man escalationfarmers NOT AT ALL, it is even a boost for their security.

I'm glad I read through this whole thread because this is my exact feeling. Put into words exactly what I was thinking.
Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#504 - 2015-06-12 07:45:12 UTC
Querns wrote:
Tara Read wrote:
Querns wrote:


I've never actually undocked in an ishtar! Check my killboard if you don't believe me. For whatever dumb reason, I happen to have Gallente Cruiser, Heavy Assault Ships, and Sentry Drone Operation all at rank five, so if I was so inclined, I feel like I'd operate the ship quite well. Haven't had a reason to do so, however -- Goonswarm Federation, in general, doesn't fly them outside of SIGs.

e: In PVP, anyways -- ishtars are very common PVE ships in Deklein.


So you say these changes will help shield doctrines from bombers... Yet never undocked in an Ishtar before. Okay....

So first you denigrate me for thinking that I fly ishtars, now you denigrate me for not flying an ishtar? I am confused -- which one of these scenarios makes me better at Eve: Online?


You were the one to first berate my skill at this game because I simply disagreed and gave counter points. Now you don't want to play this little game anymore? Point taken.
Miner Hottie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#505 - 2015-06-12 07:46:56 UTC
Querns wrote:
Miner Hottie wrote:

Immediately below your post quoted here Teh Replika gave you a pretty good example of consequences. Back to my comment why wont someone state what are the other intended consequences of this change?

Pretty much all game changes have consequences. What particular consequence "breaks" the game?


Large wormhole groups can absorb the cost of a suicide warpin for a fight, sucks to be that guy but whatever. Smaller groups cannot. Therefore they are forced to amalgamate or not play. I left null sec cause Fozzie couldn't stomach making his own sov system work outside eu/us prime. Same here changes needed to balance gameplay that make other gamplay parts that are not broken much harder or broken is a crap change.

If bombers are op nerf them, if probes are op nerf them, if ishtars are op nerf them. This fetish for nerfing elements at the edge of the problem is bullshit and I wonder what is in the water at CCPs offices.

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#506 - 2015-06-12 07:48:05 UTC
Tara Read wrote:
Querns wrote:
Tara Read wrote:
Querns wrote:


I've never actually undocked in an ishtar! Check my killboard if you don't believe me. For whatever dumb reason, I happen to have Gallente Cruiser, Heavy Assault Ships, and Sentry Drone Operation all at rank five, so if I was so inclined, I feel like I'd operate the ship quite well. Haven't had a reason to do so, however -- Goonswarm Federation, in general, doesn't fly them outside of SIGs.

e: In PVP, anyways -- ishtars are very common PVE ships in Deklein.


So you say these changes will help shield doctrines from bombers... Yet never undocked in an Ishtar before. Okay....

So first you denigrate me for thinking that I fly ishtars, now you denigrate me for not flying an ishtar? I am confused -- which one of these scenarios makes me better at Eve: Online?


You were the one to first berate my skill at this game because I simply disagreed and gave counter points. Now you don't want to play this little game anymore? Point taken.

No -- feel free to try that crowbar as much as you want. If you're going to do it, however, do it in a way that doesn't immediately contradict itself by implying that both flying and not flying the ship in question betrays one's lack of skill; it tends to work a little more effectively.

Also, I just told you to adapt to a post-fleet warp world. Everyone has to do this; it isn't really a personal attack.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Kim Khardula
Archetype Industries
#507 - 2015-06-12 07:48:47 UTC
So basically everybody complains because "OMG now we have to warp a covops alt before fleetwarping to it, **** you that's effort" ?
Neo Legath
Little Red Riding Hole
Wolves Amongst Strangers
#508 - 2015-06-12 07:48:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Neo Legath
Dear CCP,

as a WH citizen, this change gives me a real headache.
I will shorten my post, -since everything has been written atleast once- to this:

if you go on with this change, PLEASE make Corpbookmarks available for everyone right after they were made!
At the moment, some get them instantly,and some have to wait 15 min...
Thats simply a no-go if we lose Fleetwarps.

If this would be done, i would say for myself - okay, its a change i can deal with.

Please consider this adjustment.

Sincerely

Neo
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#509 - 2015-06-12 07:49:06 UTC
Miner Hottie wrote:
Querns wrote:
Miner Hottie wrote:

Immediately below your post quoted here Teh Replika gave you a pretty good example of consequences. Back to my comment why wont someone state what are the other intended consequences of this change?

Pretty much all game changes have consequences. What particular consequence "breaks" the game?


Large wormhole groups can absorb the cost of a suicide warpin for a fight, sucks to be that guy but whatever. Smaller groups cannot. Therefore they are forced to amalgamate or not play.

You need to be a large wormhole group to afford interceptors?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Manfred Sideous
H A V O C
Fraternity.
#510 - 2015-06-12 07:49:55 UTC
Tara Read wrote:
Manfred Sideous wrote:
I am a FC I feel no extra weight from this change and if I did. I get volunteers from fleet to help me.


That's a terrible excuse Manfred. Come on.... so you expect other FC's to force other people to play fleet jockey or get another account. I rest my case.



Teamwork its a alien concept I guess hey?

@EveManny

https://twitter.com/EveManny
Raphendyr Nardieu
Avanto
Hole Control
#511 - 2015-06-12 07:50:46 UTC
In wormholes, there isn't many usefull public warp-to points (maybe sun...). So could you do something like this:

Keep the scanned signatures in the ship (client) memory over session changes (ship and system). So when I have scanned wormhole XYZ-123 the client would see it 100% warp-to point until it is gone even if I would logoff and back online.

In addition, you would be able to manually or automatically be able to share them with your fleet or corporation. This way scout could scan down all the signatures for everyone. Then FC could fleet warp to next wormhole.

I bilieve this should breake the wanted change as very rarely the combat target is near the signature point. To gang explorers on sites would still require a scout to go near it and rest of the fleet would warp to that scout. On the other hand it would keep warping to combat sites the same.
D'Kmal
Variables Unlimited
Urukian Collective
#512 - 2015-06-12 07:52:05 UTC
As a member of a small wormhole corp, I have to say, this won't affect us at all. We hardly ever use fleet warp, we always just warp to a cloaky who's sitting 10-5k off the target, and we warp in at optimal.

Actually thats a good point, these changes means it easier to get your vessel in your optimal range if you're not all being warped in at the same range... stop complaining people! Big smile
Jaqen Ahai
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#513 - 2015-06-12 07:52:12 UTC
Kim Khardula wrote:
So basically everybody complains because "OMG now we have to warp a covops alt before fleetwarping to it, **** you that's effort" ?


You could even have a 'real' person doing the probing and scouting.
Manfred Sideous
H A V O C
Fraternity.
#514 - 2015-06-12 07:53:48 UTC
Kendarr wrote:
I see that Manfred Sideous has companioned this change as CSM and now no one likes it he is seriously butt hurt.


Confirming. Please someone confirm this confirmation.

@EveManny

https://twitter.com/EveManny
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#515 - 2015-06-12 07:55:38 UTC
Manfred Sideous wrote:
Kendarr wrote:
I see that Manfred Sideous has companioned this change as CSM and now no one likes it he is seriously butt hurt.


Confirming. Please someone confirm this confirmation.

Confirmed. Enjoy being a soldier of Christ.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Ogast
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#516 - 2015-06-12 07:59:52 UTC
Querns wrote:
Tara Read wrote:

You are the one constantly coming back and trying to twist a Tolkien like description of the meaning meta to say you don't like bombing runs. It's utterly hilarious.

Nah. I just think that with bombers castrated, the major detriments to fielding shield tanked ships are gone. In the current era of Ishtars and Tengus, it's a breath of fresh air.


I'm sorry mate but what the actual ****... Ishtars are predominantly shield tanked and Tengus are ONLY shield tanked.
Akballah Kassan
Flames Of Chaos
Great Wildlands Conservation Society
#517 - 2015-06-12 08:00:51 UTC
If this change (which I don't agree with) is to try and nerf bombing runs why don't they just make it so that any CLOAKED ships can't be fleet warped around?
Miner Hottie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#518 - 2015-06-12 08:05:24 UTC
Querns wrote:
Miner Hottie wrote:
Querns wrote:
Miner Hottie wrote:

Immediately below your post quoted here Teh Replika gave you a pretty good example of consequences. Back to my comment whh wont someone state what are the other intended consequences of this change?

Pretty much all game changes have consequences. What particular consequence "breaks" the game?


Large wormhole groups can absorb the cost of a suicide warpin for a fight, sucks to be that guy but whatever. Smaller groups cannot. Therefore they are forced to amalgamate or not play.

You need to be a large wormhole group to afford interceptors?


As a former goon, it pains me not to say you are an idiot. The cost is never just the isk of the ship its the player piloting that ship, the podded clone waking up in hi sec 50 jumps from the action who is now permanently out of the fight. The fact you chose to overlook things as a wormhole expert would know, makes me wonder what the hell sort of expert you are. The finite resource in wormholes has never been isk or hulls but pods and pilots for them.

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.
Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#519 - 2015-06-12 08:09:16 UTC
Manfred Sideous wrote:
Tara Read wrote:
Manfred Sideous wrote:
I am a FC I feel no extra weight from this change and if I did. I get volunteers from fleet to help me.


That's a terrible excuse Manfred. Come on.... so you expect other FC's to force other people to play fleet jockey or get another account. I rest my case.



Teamwork its a alien concept I guess hey?


No but I guess working on actually adressing a bomber rebalance is an alien concept instead of rolling this garbage out and forcing it upon all of us.
Bjurn Akely
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#520 - 2015-06-12 08:09:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Bjurn Akely
Implementing this without instantly propagating Alliance Bookmarks (or Fleet Bookmarks for that matter) is frankly pretty dumb. If the premise is that players should have to actively play the game (by warping themselves) then it follows that the players need to be able to do so in a timely fashion. The debacle that is propagation of Corp Bookmarks today does not suffice, in my opinion. And Alliance Bookmarks does not even exist. Fleet Bookmarks is not even discussed.

Sure, this hits (us) wormholers, but I feel open events such as Ganked or Redemption Roams get shafted something terrible. In those fleets you often have new players. Players that need all the help they can on the battlefield.

Not impressed. Either this is a think tank brain fart or the think tank want Eve to go in a direction I do not care for or agree with.