Player Features and Ideas Discussion

seems like that is an issue with your leadership, and i highly recommend you get away from that. however from the looks of it, you fit in well.

How do you elaborate on words someone else put in your mouth?

Couldn't agree more.


Quit your bitching you f1 monkeys. Flying your ship might a actually require you to use your pea sized brains.

Now, how about those ishtars?

Could we tripple or quadruple all probes scan strength so that there is an actual possibility of having a scout on grid to warp to before every one escapes?
Ugg, why do i bother this will **** up w-space so hard that it will empty even more.
All the quality of life changes are being trown away for wormholers.
Things will get more tedious and boring .Enemy fleets will be able to escape even easier. I don't see it creating any content in w-space . It will only decrease it.
Multicorp alliances in w-space also get the shaft on this forcing everyone to join one corp.
Small gang is getting the shaft on this one.
The only way to catch anything is a bricked out scan proteus.

This change is the most stupid idea ever

So this reply chain got a bit specific on the disagreement Querns and I seem to have about this change. I'd like to bring it back to the topic at hand:

Is this change for sure directed specifically at bombers? I didn't watch the o7 youtube video people are mentioning that they claim say this. If the nerf is indeed directed at bombers, then why not simply apply a hull bonus to bombers: Can not receive fleet warps?

Therein lies the problem -- this forum is frequented by a vast, vast, vast minority of the player base. Measuring popularity by forum posts is extremely incorrect, in the most basic way possible. You are citing popular opinion when none actually exists. It's the bulwark of your entire argument and it isn't even right.

Thanks for the compliment even if you meant it as an off the cuff insult. But see here's the disconnect. The reality is people fill many facets and roles in Alliances. In smaller Alliances these roles pass down to a few select people. Placing more burden on these people creates burn out and headaches that in turn create problems.

Every Alliance faces these things small gang not withstanding. But this isn't even really about small gang or low sec. If it were I'm certain yourself or a few select other personalities here wouldn't grace us with such estute opinions. At any rate, my opinion is very strong on these issues because it is but a small piece in the preverbial **** pie CCP is continually forcing down our throats rolling out baseless changes without any forethought or after sight.

I've heard not ONE person praise the icon changes. I've heard not one person like the UI changes. We've endured them because CCP throws them out in patches. And we've continually seen even at the begging of players to give us freedom with ship looks due to the skin bug that CCP is tight fisted as ever clutching every dammed penny since Incarna.

These changes are vieled nerfs to bombing runs that kick everyone else in the balls and their hidden profit generation. CCP isn't stupid. They know FC'a wil make designated grid alts due to these changes. They know they have to for fleets to even get into proper position.

It's all utterly rediculous. But thank you for such a thought-provoking post. I'll make sure to meditate and chew on each letter.

Fair enough. However, it is far from the focus of my argument and is simply one point of many that I brought up. The bulwark of my argument is that this change is a rather hamfisted way of going about it.

If the goal is to limit the effectiveness of bombers (something I fully support!) and require fleet members to have to take more manual action vs. relying on a FC to warp them around (which I also support!), I simply feel this can be accomplished in a much more precise and logical way. The proposed change feels like using a sledgehammer to pound in a nail. Sure, it will work, but it is going to cause some unexpected damage to other things.

Tar-Palantir isn't opposed to this change because of the harm that may or may not happen. Rather, he thinks it may be a bit misguided depending on what the goals/outcome of the changes are. Tar-Palantir would argue that fleet warping - which has been around since Fleets were introduced - isn't really the cause of major problems in the game. Not upset about people having to warp themselves, but don't really think the whole fleet warp thing causes our problems. Manfred seems to be alluding to that in his comments.

Rapid/near instant probing of targets that are at known celestials/grids seems to be the core problem with fleet warps just being a way to make use of them. However, the rapid/instant probing still exists and can still be used to get warp-ins on hostile fleets of all sizes. It now means you have to wait for the cloaked prober to warp to the location and X up in some channel, but that doesn't fundementally change the problems. It slows the process down by X seconds and introduces more risk to the prober. However, they can still be cloaked, still provide a warp-in for a fleet warp, and still warp out. Bit more dangerous because of bubbles, but still quite doable. A greater than 150 km range snipe fleet could hold its position for 20-40 more seconds maybe against a competent foe with decent cloaked probers. That isn't going to change the outcome against a short range damage fleet unless you are talking very small, very rapid engagements.

Changing other mechanics to try and mask the root problem usually doesn't work well. Sometimes you have no choice because fixing the root problem is out of reach (TiDi comes to mind here). In the case of probing, that doesn't seem the likely cause. More likely it is that the probing system works very well for what it was designed for - finding hidden objects like Signature sites/WH/safed up ships. The work is in the finding where in the system the thing is. It works horribly for fleets (of any size from 5 to 2000) because you already know where it is so all you have to do is click the scan button after launching your probes. No real challenge, no real game play, no particularly practical counters that aren't very specific/niche, just results.

While Tar-Palantir does understand the idea of getting more people involved in fleets (scouts are a good thing - something that people should actively be doing/playing rather than being provided scout functionality via game mechanics) and making fleet members control their own ships rather than have others control them, Tar-Palantir would urge CCP to work on the core problem - instant probing - rather than the in game mechanisms that people use to make use of instant probing. Sounds like Manfred is already pushing that for which Tar-Palantir is grateful.