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[AEGIS] Fleet Warp Changes - Please see devblog!

First post First post First post
Author
Long Muppet
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#201 - 2015-06-12 00:34:51 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
The change restriction is too high and affects too many areas of life in Eve, from Kspace, to Null, to Wspace. I would propose a smaller iteration to address the concerns of how fleet warp mechanics now work.


  • Permit Squad Commanders in a fleet to fleet-warp their squad to bookmarks and probed sigs.


Essentially you move the capabilities of the overall fleet and wing commander down to the squad level. You remove the big flying balls of hurt down to decisions made by the squad commander, permitting them to decide on tactical warp ins, locations and fleet warps for their squad.

You restrict fleet warps down to a 10 man team, with a individual per 10 man team making individual decisions for that 10 man team, to support the fleet efforts.

Fleet and Wing commanders would lose this ability to warp entire armada's to bookmarks and scanned sigs, but permit smaller skirmish groups/squads to warp their small group to them.

You move the leadership role of getting tacticals and flying to the leader of the squad, reducing the blob down to at most, 10 pilots, vs the 100+ null runs into. You now create a new leadership dynamic, and permit new people to have a stepping stone to becoming a Fleet Commander. Squad Leaders gain power, and have a relevant role verses just being a booster for their fleetmates.

I'd start with baby steps first, commonly known as "A Iteration" (Thanks for that CCP Rise).

Remove the ability for fleet commanders and wing commanders from warping entire groups to bookmarks and scan probes, and reduce it down to the squad level.

Try that first. See how it actually works.


This is a beautiful suggestion for an alternative. I hope it receives the attention it deserves.
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#202 - 2015-06-12 00:35:35 UTC
Darth Bex wrote:
From a purely selfish wormholer perspective, this change is just going to double my travel time while I wait for alliance members to warp to me, bookmark, repeat.

If we had Alliance bookmarks, however...



Covops with warpspeed rigs maybe? As a +1? No?
No scouting? Just blind warps around space?
Cool.
Lucius Kalari
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#203 - 2015-06-12 00:36:47 UTC
I get the feeling that this is going to be another "Hyperion" issue where the community tell CCP that what they're proposing is stupid, but they ignore us all and go ahead with what they proposing.

FC doesn't do everything, members of the fleet are doing things as well, so I don't really know where that has come from.


Phoenix Jones wrote:
Or you can just cut 99% of the bull out of it and restrict all bookmark and probing fleet warps to just the Squad Commander.

Want to warp the fleet, the squad commander in charge of the 10 people can do it. The wing commander and the fleet commander cannot warp the group in whole.

You move the leadership role of getting tacticals and flying to the leader of the squad, reducing the blob down to at most, 10 pilots, vs the 100+ null runs into.

You now create a new leadership dynamic, and permit new people to have a stepping stone to becoming a fc.

Squad Leaders gain power, and have a relevant role (vs just being a booster).

I'd start with baby steps first, commonly known as "A Iteration" (Thanks for that CCP Rise).

Remove the ability for fleet commanders and wing commanders from warping entire groups to bookmarks and scan probes, and reduce it down to the squad level.

Try that first. See how it actually works.


Yes this sounds like a great idea, and would be great for your "need more people in fleet to do more things" argument.

As for not being able to warp to bookmarks if you don't have it, how about making them instantly available for corp then? I think up to a minute is acceptable for bookmark to sync up, but realistically that wouldn't happen because of latency issues. However for alliances, maybe it's about time for alliance bookmarks? You'd need multiple scouts from each corp in the alliance to scan down the exact same thing the other scout is scanning, which seems like wasted time. So rather than not being able to fleet warp to bookmarks, why not take Phoenix Jones' idea and make squad leaders warp the squads in instead?
Change is always good, but half the time what is proposed is infuriating. Why not just ask for feedback about things? The blunt approach of "We're changing stuff just coz" is so annoying because I love EVE and it's an amazing game, but why can't you look at things in the game that need fixing that is way higher up on the priority list? Because I really don't think fleet warping is that much of an issue.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#204 - 2015-06-12 00:38:32 UTC
Dunk Dinkle wrote:
It appears that to nerf bombers, you are nerfing all fleets.



CCP applying a sledgehammer to something that could have used a scalpel? Wish I could say this is a 1st.
Alundil
Rolled Out
#205 - 2015-06-12 00:39:24 UTC
Krops Vont wrote:
Please run with this idea. No one liked wormhole changes but they came and came hard. W-space is still teaming with escalation farmers.

EVE always needs change no matter how much players grog about it. Smile

Fixed that for you

I'm right behind you

Steven Hackett
Overload This
#206 - 2015-06-12 00:40:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Steven Hackett
CCP Larrikin wrote:

Both of these points are solid. Corbexx brought these up while we where talking to the CSM about the change.
Regarding slowing down the speed of sites, given the potential profitability of wormhole space, we don't consider this a major negative.
Regarding movement fleets though WH space, we have something we're working on for this. That said some of the feedback we've received is mixed. Reducing power projection though WH space (for both WH residence & passes though) not seen as all bad.

The speed of the fleet will, if these changes goes trough, be dependent on how fast the corp bookmark propagates.
Imo. that is a horrible design goal and I hope you agree? Please don't make us dependent on the worst parts of your game.

Now, we can use fleetwarp to put outrfleet at that BM our scout just made for us. With these changes, our fleet will have to sit there and wait for 10-15 minuts until CCP decided that the last fleet member could get the bookmark. Your bad code/lack of processing power/whatever it is, will become the important factor of the engagement instead of the pilots skills to quickly formup, get in position etc.

We are already working against the time here due to those horrible changes you did to how WHs spawn and how the scanner automatically warns the people about new signatures. These changes would make those horrible changes even worse.
Sasha Sen
Hull Zero Two
#207 - 2015-06-12 00:42:08 UTC
Shadowforge Dawkins wrote:
AAR; Venture kill- yes I know who cares, but the process on this I find important, Because without the fleet warp, If this was a guy in a Relic/data site, he would have been done and gone by the time bookmarks popped. and as for the gas, gas clouds decloak you. so getting a warp in to a person can be very difficult. as this tale shall show.



So I call in the guys and they bring a Jackdaw with dual scram and a few other ships. Becuase he is in the center of the cloud I cannot provide warp-in as I will be de-cloaked and he will see me and run off.




So you cant manually pilot your 500 m/s cloaked prospect around the cloud and line up his ship between you and the wh your gang is popping out of?
spaceking7591
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#208 - 2015-06-12 00:42:13 UTC
i don't see the reason that you can't warp fleet members to missions.
Oracle of Machina
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#209 - 2015-06-12 00:43:12 UTC
This fixes a problem that isn't a problem.
Outlaw46
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#210 - 2015-06-12 00:43:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Outlaw46
Why do you think making the job of content creators harder is a good way to help a game in which most of your loyal customers for years think you are slowly killing this game like aids.

Edit : Additionally because seriously this wasn't a problem at all in the game it only fostered content now as an FC i have to stress a lot more and i'm more discouraged now to run fleets thus killing content for a lot of people.
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#211 - 2015-06-12 00:45:26 UTC
Hero Tackling® just got heroer . . .
Thirdsin
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#212 - 2015-06-12 00:45:51 UTC
Long Muppet wrote:
Phoenix Jones wrote:
The change restriction is too high and affects too many areas of life in Eve, from Kspace, to Null, to Wspace. I would propose a smaller iteration to address the concerns of how fleet warp mechanics now work.


  • Permit Squad Commanders in a fleet to fleet-warp their squad to bookmarks and probed sigs.


Essentially you move the capabilities of the overall fleet and wing commander down to the squad level. You remove the big flying balls of hurt down to decisions made by the squad commander, permitting them to decide on tactical warp ins, locations and fleet warps for their squad.

You restrict fleet warps down to a 10 man team, with a individual per 10 man team making individual decisions for that 10 man team, to support the fleet efforts.

Fleet and Wing commanders would lose this ability to warp entire armada's to bookmarks and scanned sigs, but permit smaller skirmish groups/squads to warp their small group to them.

You move the leadership role of getting tacticals and flying to the leader of the squad, reducing the blob down to at most, 10 pilots, vs the 100+ null runs into. You now create a new leadership dynamic, and permit new people to have a stepping stone to becoming a Fleet Commander. Squad Leaders gain power, and have a relevant role verses just being a booster for their fleetmates.

I'd start with baby steps first, commonly known as "A Iteration" (Thanks for that CCP Rise).

Remove the ability for fleet commanders and wing commanders from warping entire groups to bookmarks and scan probes, and reduce it down to the squad level.

Try that first. See how it actually works.


This is a beautiful suggestion for an alternative. I hope it receives the attention it deserves.


signed
Shadowforge Dawkins
Un.Reasonable
#213 - 2015-06-12 00:49:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Shadowforge Dawkins
Sasha Sen wrote:
Shadowforge Dawkins wrote:
AAR; Venture kill- yes I know who cares, but the process on this I find important, Because without the fleet warp, If this was a guy in a Relic/data site, he would have been done and gone by the time bookmarks popped. and as for the gas, gas clouds decloak you. so getting a warp in to a person can be very difficult. as this tale shall show.



So I call in the guys and they bring a Jackdaw with dual scram and a few other ships. Becuase he is in the center of the cloud I cannot provide warp-in as I will be de-cloaked and he will see me and run off.




So you cant manually pilot your 500 m/s cloaked prospect around the cloud and line up his ship between you and the wh your gang is popping out of?



As you probably know, some gas clouds are very large, sitting inside the center of a cloud puts you between 3-10 kilometers from the edge of the cloud. what side of the cloud you are on is irrelevant. It is a bait technique I use in wolf rayets using my prospect. because I can see them coming.

Remember, decloak range is 2.5 KM where as the gas cloud gets you at 3-10 KM. not gonna work.

Having a Sync button for bookmarks would make this problem lesser allowing us to warp to the center of the cloud.
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#214 - 2015-06-12 00:52:00 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:

No idea why your fleet would get seperated, tbh, since you can still Fleetwarp them. You just need 1 (one) other fleetmember as your warpin first. Or warp to celestials.

Not all groups can afford to spare the extra member to function as a scout, and even if you're bouncing to a nearby celestial first, you're still stuck trying to stagger your warps so that your slower ships get in at the same time as your faster ships.

As I said above, latency and misheard / missed commands are going to become an even bigger threat to a smaller group.
T'aun
Shadow Legion X
Seriously Suspicious
#215 - 2015-06-12 00:55:26 UTC


This is a terrible idea.

At least leave the ability to squad warp members to a bookmark/probe results or enable the bookmarks/probe results to be broadcast-able to those on grid to warp themselves to.
ManGiNa1
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#216 - 2015-06-12 00:55:52 UTC  |  Edited by: ManGiNa1
[quote=CCP Larrikin]Hi Gentle Space Foke,

There was no need to call the player base @#$%'s

FOKE isn't a very nice word http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Foke

yep... seems the player base of "Foke/s" aren't happy and i'm drowning in the flood of Tears

thanks FOLKS
Vala Ancalagon
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#217 - 2015-06-12 00:58:01 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
The change restriction is too high and affects too many areas of life in Eve, from Kspace, to Null, to Wspace. I would propose a smaller iteration to address the concerns of how fleet warp mechanics now work.


  • Permit Squad Commanders in a fleet to fleet-warp their squad to bookmarks and probed sigs.


Essentially you move the capabilities of the overall fleet and wing commander down to the squad level. You remove the big flying balls of hurt down to decisions made by the squad commander, permitting them to decide on tactical warp ins, locations and fleet warps for their squad.

You restrict fleet warps down to a 10 man team, with a individual per 10 man team making individual decisions for that 10 man team, to support the fleet efforts.

Fleet and Wing commanders would lose this ability to warp entire armada's to bookmarks and scanned sigs, but permit smaller skirmish groups/squads to warp their small group to them.

You move the leadership role of getting tacticals and flying to the leader of the squad, reducing the blob down to at most, 10 pilots, vs the 100+ null runs into. You now create a new leadership dynamic, and permit new people to have a stepping stone to becoming a Fleet Commander. Squad Leaders gain power, and have a relevant role verses just being a booster for their fleetmates.

I'd start with baby steps first, commonly known as "A Iteration" (Thanks for that CCP Rise).

Remove the ability for fleet commanders and wing commanders from warping entire groups to bookmarks and scan probes, and reduce it down to the squad level.

Try that first. See how it actually works.



Sounds much better, and actually will create a need for 2nd tier leaders who will have to pay attention in fleets!
Shadowforge Dawkins
Un.Reasonable
#218 - 2015-06-12 00:59:16 UTC
So a couple of things to fix for the Bookmarks considering the loss of our fleet warping capabilities in WH space. Please at least add the ability to
-Sync button for our bookmark files
-possibly as noted by Tatsuj Khan- make a public BM convention
-Increase the number of Bookmarks allowed in a Corp. 500 is a burden to large wh corps with 5-8 people scouting
Arbitos
GamCorp
Almost Broken
#219 - 2015-06-12 00:59:52 UTC
Going to go back to the beginning of this thread and start reading it again, for some reason I read it as fleet warping is being removed ?!
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#220 - 2015-06-12 01:00:43 UTC
Arbitos wrote:
Going to go back to the beginning of this thread and start reading it again, for some reason I read it as fleet warping is being removed ?!

no, just restricted