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[AEGIS] Fleet Warp Changes - Please see devblog!

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Berial Inglebard
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2015-06-11 23:42:47 UTC
To everyone complaining that "this kills x".

You choose to die instead of adapt. I will play the tiniest violin for you.
Quiggle Queue
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#142 - 2015-06-11 23:44:35 UTC
We could return to the game as it was prior to "Warp to Zero" too, but that would be a step backwards, so is this.
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#143 - 2015-06-11 23:44:46 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Rowells wrote:
RIP Bomber wings


You'll still be able to use them, but this will slow the speed at which they usually hit their targets. We consider that a very good outcome.


Clearly, this is all about bombers. Is it so hard to come up with another way of balancing them? This is just poor form ...
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#144 - 2015-06-11 23:44:48 UTC
knobber Jobbler wrote:
The removal of warping to probes is daft. It removes a dynamic in fleet combat. At least allow probed locations to be broadcast so fleets can warp too them rather than warping to a freindly ship at that location. It's that or even less fights.

Please give the small/micro gang elite pvp jerks their arena to go fight in and stop buggering up strategic fleet warfare. While your at it, put decloaking back on bombers. Would solve most of the problems you're trying to solve by removing useful/interesting mechanics.



This raises a good question: if someone broadcasts "Warp to:" for a probe result, will fleetwarps be available?

At the very least everyone in fleet could warp to it and it would reduce the headache of warping to a scout and having someone warp at 0 and decloak it.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Airi Cho
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#145 - 2015-06-11 23:48:50 UTC
Scott Ormands wrote:
Jezza McWaffle wrote:
So you will now implement automatic bookmarking at a corporation and alliance level yes? Or is this just another way to **** up wormholers now. Since WE WILL have to wait for the bookmarks to propagate (up to 5-10 mins) unless we have to have a scout at the exact warp in at every single fight.

Example if you have a group consisting of more than just 1 corp.

Group A wants to fight Group B
Group A consists of multiple corps
Currently Group A can fleet warp onto the enemy fleet or wormhole without everyone involved having a propagated bookmark.
However after this change if the group does not have the bookmark then they have no way of getting into the fight at the same time as the rest of the fleet. So all fights will be delayed until everyone has the bookmarks <10 mins.

Good job CCP... Roll


+1

I can no longer warp my entire fleet to the hole and expect them to land in a cohesive group, first my T3's land and get primaried then a minute later my Bhaals land and then 2 minutes later my triage lands by that time we are all dead. And that's assuming all of us have the BM which can take quite a long time to happen. CCP i am adamantly against this change. Please reconsider.


1. warp scout in at range X.
2. fleet warp to scout.
3. profit...?
CCP Larrikin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#146 - 2015-06-11 23:50:56 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Larrikin
Andrew Charante wrote:
This is a terrible idea, you want a fleet to all land at once on a wormhole with different warp speeds, thats no longer possible.
0/10

You can fleet warp to a fleet member already at the wormhole.

Kismeteer wrote:
Here is my list of things you can no longer warp to in a fleet without a scout in position. This is just one more account to run by FCs, who alternately have to be SURE they are reliable and are actually there every time.

Thats the goal of the change. We want more fleet member participation. Fleets that have motivated and trusted probers will do a lot better than fleets that have the FC trying to do everything.


Kismeteer wrote:
So scout ahead to see enemies coming, and scout JUST ahead of the fleet, WAITING for people to actually warp to him. usually at the wrong range.

I think it's terrible because telling a newbie how to warp to a person is painful. And getting him to pick the right range is even worse if it's not at zero. It encourages scouts, yes, but it also just slows down and makes game play more complicated.

The FC can still fleet warp to that scout. Additionally teaching that newbie how to warp himself at the right range, while hard is going to be much better for that newbie long term.

Masao Kurata wrote:
This is unnecessarily problematic for warping a fleet onto a target who is on a station, and thus you cannot get a covops remotely near without decloaking him. I think you've only considered a narrow range of fleet warp scenarios and are making people that are already very safe even safer.

Somone who is on a station (stations can be fleet warped to) is already safe?

Tatsuj Khan wrote:
Suggestion:
Make corporate wormhole BMs "public" just as gates are, and allow fleets to warp from WH to WH in a coherent group. Otherwise as the Dev proposal stands now, the fleet can't work together as they land because ships are strung out throughout the system. This allows the enemy to pick off small faster ships first as the landing fleet straggles in.

If wormhole BMs are made "public", it should significantly lessen the damage this nerf does to WH corp membership and fleet ops. I recall somewhere in the sov changes thread, devs stated that changes should enhance game play rather than add unnecessary difficulties and tedium.

This is a great suggestion. Building on it - allowing fleet warping to WH probe results could also work.
There are a couple of questions we'd like to thrash out and get more feedback on relating to power projection in WH space before we make a change like this.

Quiggle Queue wrote:
[Is it really "power projection", just to be able to warp as a group to a "stargate"? That seems pretty much standard travel outside of wormholes.

You still can fleet warp a group to a stargate =)

Game Designer | Team Phenomenon | https://twitter.com/CCP_Larrikin
Makkari Kock
Tensenn Industries
#147 - 2015-06-11 23:51:51 UTC
Black Canary Jnr wrote:
Much moaning, most of it not justified, lacking real criticism, and can be solved by using a cloaky scanner alt as the warpin.


This should make fights more interesting and emphasis fleet members controlling more of their own actions or risk being caught out. Looking forward to it.

How is the fc using a scanner alt as you yourself suggest making anything more interesting? It's just adding more headache, which seems to be easily mistaken for content and fun nowadays.
Makkari Kock
Tensenn Industries
#148 - 2015-06-11 23:54:20 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Thats the goal of the change. We want more fleet member participation. Fleets that have motivated and trusted probers will do a lot better than fleets that have the FC trying to do everything.

Do you know how hard it is to get people to actually do these annoying unrewarding roles in the fleets? It's not hard work, and it's very unrewarding and completely transparent to most members, just like boosting. People do them because you force someone to do it or you won't undock, what people really WANT to do is blow stuff up, not warp around cloaked telling the fc in command that the fleet can warp to him.
Lt Shard
Team Pizza
Good at this Game
#149 - 2015-06-11 23:54:36 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:

You can fleet warp to a fleet member already at the wormhole.


All this does it make things slower, and eve is a slow game as is.

Adding tedium is a terrible idea.
SilentAsTheGrave
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#150 - 2015-06-11 23:55:28 UTC
Sugar Kyle wrote:
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:
So my main concern here is that this is a stealth buff to off grid boosters (OGB).

Many tech 3 off grid boosters are fitted both to be extremely hard to scan down and have a 100mn afterburner to burn around on the grid. Furthermore they often sit in deep safes (long warps).

Currently the best way to kill an OGB is to scan it down (which needs to be done fast or they cloak) fleet warp a lachesis or a tackle bomber to them (dscan invisibility).

After this change in order to kill a OGB you'll need to put a cloaky scout on grid with the OGB so you can warp to that. This causes a few issues, often OGB's are only decloaked for a limited amount of time, so the extra delay reduces the chances of catching it. Furthermore if it's in a deepsafe and burning with a 100mn 2 long warps instead of one makes it highly likely that it will now be out of tackle range completely by the time you get there.

Fitting tackle to the prober isn't that realistic a solution either since you need highly specialized fits to even be able to scan most tech 3 OGB's down in the first place. And many of the command ship variants that are hard to probe also carry a flight of ECM drones which puts further restraints on the fits of viable tackle ship.

So I worry that this change makes a class of ships that is already incredibly hard to kill even harder to kill.

Having corp bookmarks update instantaneously might be a viable work around, that way you still remove the automation but at least it doesn't hurt things like OGB hunting then.


It is a very good point. Thank you.

They can always do some module restrictions. Don't allow gang links and ECCM modules to be fit at the same time. Maybe even address the over sized ab mod too.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#151 - 2015-06-11 23:56:45 UTC
Bat Country are in agreement with this change. Next step you should nerf repair broadcasts to squad only.
Tyr Dolorem
State War Academy
Caldari State
#152 - 2015-06-11 23:57:45 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:

The FC can still fleet warp to that scout.


"We want people to be more involved in the fleet, but it's k there's an ez pz workaround so you can still fleetwarp to where you wanna go it just requires the fc to have an alt warp there first, leaving the "fleet participation" unchanged and FC workload increased."


CCP Larrikin wrote:

power projection in WH space


r u srs?
Quiggle Queue
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#153 - 2015-06-11 23:58:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Quiggle Queue
CCP Larrikin wrote:

This is a great suggestion. Building on it - allowing fleet warping to WH probe results could also work.
There are a couple of questions we'd like to thrash out and get more feedback on relating to power projection in WH space before we make a change like this.



So isn't this reversing everything you have previously stated? Probe results, combat probe results, etc? And that "stargate" was in quotations, because in a J-space, the wormholes are our gates :P

Do you really want to stop fleets from warping together, to the wormhole entrance/exit to another j-space system?

Seriously?


And the term "power projection" is really quite a silly way to refer to fleet warping to a "stargate in a wormhole". You know, we don't light cynos in here right? :P
Airi Cho
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#154 - 2015-06-11 23:58:11 UTC
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
They can always do some module restrictions. Don't allow gang links and ECCM modules to be fit at the same time. Maybe even address the over sized ab mod too.


Not everyone running a gang link and ECCM is sitting in a safespot. in small gang pvp people might actually have a single link on their BC and a ECCM if they expect ECM to be fielded.
Malakai Asamov
Van Diemen's Demise
Northern Coalition.
#155 - 2015-06-11 23:58:33 UTC
Increasing warp to range to 250km or 500km would maintain a lot of benefits while decreasing some of the downsides bought up with this change, was that considered as an alternate fix?
Kaliba Mort
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#156 - 2015-06-11 23:59:14 UTC
You know, back in the day, there weren't even probes and fleet warps. People had to warp to Ws in fleet. And then there were cloaky scouts getting a warp in on stuff. And stuff died.

So I think it is a good change. FC is not suppose to be probing anyway. There are suppose to be probers in any decent fleet to find perfect warp-ins on target. Those can do a much better job than someone trying to do 10 things at once.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#157 - 2015-06-11 23:59:24 UTC
Fozzie, can you stahp? Focus on the real problems, not the circumstantial annoyances? You know, like those drones? I know losing is fun and everything come on.....

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#158 - 2015-06-11 23:59:45 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Masao Kurata wrote:
This is unnecessarily problematic for warping a fleet onto a target who is on a station, and thus you cannot get a covops remotely near without decloaking him. I think you've only considered a narrow range of fleet warp scenarios and are making people that are already very safe even safer.

Somone who is on a station (stations can be fleet warped to) is already safe?


Stations are pretty big you know, especially caldari administrative stations (100km across!), warping to the station is very different from warping on top of a ship. Warping to zero on top of a target who has just acquired a weapons timer in order to apply high dps during this very short timer is a strong counter to station games.
Angelicous Prada
Doomheim
#159 - 2015-06-12 00:00:30 UTC
Been playing in some large fleets lately.
I noticed the fc would drop his combat probes and fleet warp to the targets maneuvering 200k away.
I thought that was too much a one man show.
Rather I see a skilled pilot get a warp in by piloting.
Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#160 - 2015-06-12 00:03:16 UTC
Was that the sound of snipers becoming useful again?

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno