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[AEGIS] Fleet Warp Changes - Please see devblog!

First post First post First post
Author
Scott Ormands
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#101 - 2015-06-11 23:08:59 UTC
Jezza McWaffle wrote:
So you will now implement automatic bookmarking at a corporation and alliance level yes? Or is this just another way to **** up wormholers now. Since WE WILL have to wait for the bookmarks to propagate (up to 5-10 mins) unless we have to have a scout at the exact warp in at every single fight.

Example if you have a group consisting of more than just 1 corp.

Group A wants to fight Group B
Group A consists of multiple corps
Currently Group A can fleet warp onto the enemy fleet or wormhole without everyone involved having a propagated bookmark.
However after this change if the group does not have the bookmark then they have no way of getting into the fight at the same time as the rest of the fleet. So all fights will be delayed until everyone has the bookmarks <10 mins.

Good job CCP... Roll


+1

I can no longer warp my entire fleet to the hole and expect them to land in a cohesive group, first my T3's land and get primaried then a minute later my Bhaals land and then 2 minutes later my triage lands by that time we are all dead. And that's assuming all of us have the BM which can take quite a long time to happen. CCP i am adamantly against this change. Please reconsider.
gr ant
Perkone
Caldari State
#102 - 2015-06-11 23:09:19 UTC  |  Edited by: gr ant
I get that you guys wants to change a lot of aspects of the game, but you guys need to slow down a bit. If anything shows us how unorganized and scatter brained you guys are at CCP it's your balancing team. Nerfing ships you literally just came out with just shows the lack of forethought and lack of understanding of your own games mechanics and meta.

I recommend you focus on the new SOV mechanics and fixing and balancing that before you decide to change more aspects of your games mechanics, slow down a bit and think things through a bit, because it just seems like you are a bunch of kids who implement whatever sounds cool at the moment.

I appreciate you guys wanting to work hard and change a lot of flawed aspects, but good things take time, and real change should come slowly.

Worry about Fozziesov first
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#103 - 2015-06-11 23:09:55 UTC
Andrew Charante wrote:
This is a terrible idea, you want a fleet to all land at once on a wormhole with different warp speeds, thats no longer possible.
0/10


You are a bit silly. Just put few thoughts on it and you ll find few ways.
ccc

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.

CCP Larrikin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#104 - 2015-06-11 23:11:56 UTC
Ele Rebellion wrote:
Anoms are the green sites you can warp to without scanning down. We should still be able to fleet warp to those

Thats correct.

Aebe Amraen wrote:
Probing and tackling are already important roles in any fleet; what this change actually does is gets rid of the notion of a prober as a stand-alone role. The prober must also be a tackler, with all the risk that entails.

A cloaky prober can't get into position so the FC can fleet warp to him/her?

Aebe Amraen wrote:
2. My second concern is about a very particular, but rather common, scenario: trying to catch cloaky, nullified, nearly-unscannable off-grid T3 links ships. In some configurations these can perma-AB at over 1km/s, aligned out to another safespot. The current best practice is to get a prober with perfect skills, a bonused ship, and virtue probes and have him warp a squad of fast tackle (T1 frigates/interceptors or specialized tackle bombers) on top of the boosting ship, hoping that one of them will be able to catch him before he reacts and warps away.

Catching these ships is already extremely difficult, and will be nearly impossible under the proposed changes. No bonused scanning ship will be able to tackle them, as they have at a minimum 5s lock delay after decloaking. No unbonused ship will be able to scan them down. In the time it takes for the prober to warp to the target and then have the tackle squad warp to him the 1km/s probing ship will be out of range.

I have interests on both sides of this scenario, having hunted PL off-grid boosters with my perfect scanning alt during the recent Catch wars and with two of my own perfect combat boosting alts. I guess I won't mind having my boosting alts be effectively invulnerable for a while, but it does seem like poor balance.

This is a really good point. Awesome post in general. I don't have an answer for you just yet, but we're working on it.

ArmEagle Kusoni wrote:
So, to run sites (in w-space) we can't easily warp there all together anymore. Everyone will need the bookmarks or have to wait for one player to have landed. Alliance bookmarks would only make that slightly less of an issue.

That's just one example of how people will become unnecessarily more vulnarable, or things taking more time.

and below...
Ele Rebellion wrote:
Concern about this is WH space.

We don't have gates we can warp to and have to rely on the Bookmarks of the wormhole.

Edit: What I mean is if we have non-corp members that we are trying to move through a chain to a target, it will slow the entire fleet by 100% since a fleet member will have to warp ahead and then the entire fleet will have to warp to that fleet member.

Both of these points are solid. Corbexx brought these up while we where talking to the CSM about the change.
Regarding slowing down the speed of sites, given the potential profitability of wormhole space, we don't consider this a major negative.
Regarding movement fleets though WH space, we have something we're working on for this. That said some of the feedback we've received is mixed. Reducing power projection though WH space (for both WH residence & passes though) not seen as all bad.

Hong Hu wrote:
Well, to compensate for individual responsibility for warping (in Stealth Bombers) maybe we can change back to a 10 second flight time for the actual bombs? The change makes the setup for launch more challenging. But the end game of the bomb launch shouldn't also suffer. Back to 10 seconds, please.

You can still squad warp bombers, you'll just need somone in position on the enemy fleet first. I don't want to rule your suggestion out, its a good one. We'll be monitoring the effect this change has on bombers closely =)

Game Designer | Team Phenomenon | https://twitter.com/CCP_Larrikin

Black Canary Jnr
Higher Than Everest
#105 - 2015-06-11 23:13:18 UTC
Much moaning, most of it not justified, lacking real criticism, and can be solved by using a cloaky scanner alt as the warpin.


This should make fights more interesting and emphasis fleet members controlling more of their own actions or risk being caught out. Looking forward to it.
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#106 - 2015-06-11 23:14:41 UTC
If we got a desalination company involved with this thread, we could probably help ease California's water issues.






Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?

SilentAsTheGrave
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2015-06-11 23:15:00 UTC
Black Canary Jnr wrote:
Much moaning, most of it not justified, lacking real criticism, and can be solved by using a cloaky scanner alt as the warpin.


This should make fights more interesting and emphasis fleet members controlling more of their own actions or risk being caught out. Looking forward to it.

Get out of here with your dirty logic!
Joran Jackson
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#108 - 2015-06-11 23:15:20 UTC
Scott Ormands wrote:
Jezza McWaffle wrote:
So you will now implement automatic bookmarking at a corporation and alliance level yes? Or is this just another way to **** up wormholers now. Since WE WILL have to wait for the bookmarks to propagate (up to 5-10 mins) unless we have to have a scout at the exact warp in at every single fight.

Example if you have a group consisting of more than just 1 corp.

Group A wants to fight Group B
Group A consists of multiple corps
Currently Group A can fleet warp onto the enemy fleet or wormhole without everyone involved having a propagated bookmark.
However after this change if the group does not have the bookmark then they have no way of getting into the fight at the same time as the rest of the fleet. So all fights will be delayed until everyone has the bookmarks <10 mins.

Good job CCP... Roll


+1

I can no longer warp my entire fleet to the hole and expect them to land in a cohesive group, first my T3's land and get primaried then a minute later my Bhaals land and then 2 minutes later my triage lands by that time we are all dead. And that's assuming all of us have the BM which can take quite a long time to happen. CCP i am adamantly against this change. Please reconsider.


There is so much wrong with this post it makes me want to cry that your opinion might be considered somehow relevant.

In no situation would this ever be a problem for people who know what they're doing. If you are caught literally with your pants down, then I still have 0 sympathy because the other guys won with scouting.
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#109 - 2015-06-11 23:16:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Winter Archipelago
CCP Larrikin wrote:

Aebe Amraen wrote:
Probing and tackling are already important roles in any fleet; what this change actually does is gets rid of the notion of a prober as a stand-alone role. The prober must also be a tackler, with all the risk that entails.

A cloaky prober can't get into position so the FC can fleet warp to him/her?


Drop a small bubble, abandon a mess of drones around its perimeter, laugh as the cloaky scout gets decloaked on the warp-in and insta-blapped. Even tanked, scout ships are still easily alphaed.

Edit :: Bloody frak... This also means that escorting folks through Thera is going to become an even bigger problem. Instead of being able to fleet up with them and warp them to their out-hole, we'll have to warp there first and then let them warp in.
Papa Sotken
Nothing Comes To Mind
Snuffed Out
#110 - 2015-06-11 23:17:48 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Rowells wrote:
RIP Bomber wings


You'll still be able to use them, but this will slow the speed at which they usually hit their targets. We consider that a very good outcome.

Bombers problem is not how fast they get on grid. Every other ship can do so just as fast/faster with a great scanner.

I feel you've hit an issue that a small group have screamed for.

But come on.

This hits bombers...and everything else.

Can we not just fix bombs?

Zebra Corp

Papa Sotken
Nothing Comes To Mind
Snuffed Out
#111 - 2015-06-11 23:20:07 UTC
Double Delete.

Zebra Corp

Ubeleins
EVE Protection Agency
#112 - 2015-06-11 23:20:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Ubeleins
Black Canary Jnr wrote:

This should make fights more interesting and emphasis fleet members controlling more of their own actions or risk being caught out. Looking forward to it.


Except that it won't. It will make FC's warp their probing alt in first, and then fleet warp their entire fleet to said alt. All it does is put the prober at a slightly higher risk of getting decloaked & killed. Nothing for the line member changes.

But hey, while we're removing features of the game that can be easily worked around, let's just go way back & take out 'warp to zero' for gates...
Villa Deaver
The Anoikis Project
#113 - 2015-06-11 23:22:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Villa Deaver
Here's the basic problem.

This is a change that lets you do all the things you used to be able to do, just with more tedium and less fun.

I'm generally very sympathetic to CCP's changes to the game, but if there's a change whose sole purpose is to make the game less fun, it might be time to step back and look at a different solution to whatever problem you're trying to solve.

This won't actually change anything, at least with regard to bomber fleets. Waffles and CFC and the rest will just invest the suddenly-necessary time into copying 10 bookmarks at a time and trading them to everyone in their fleets, because they play the game in a goal-oriented way no matter the cost. More casual and less organized bomber fleets, who aren't willing to invest so much time into un-fun, will be the ones who suffer.

I understand the sentiment, but purposely making your game less fun is not the way to go.
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#114 - 2015-06-11 23:23:41 UTC
This is unnecessarily problematic for warping a fleet onto a target who is on a station, and thus you cannot get a covops remotely near without decloaking him. I think you've only considered a narrow range of fleet warp scenarios and are making people that are already very safe even safer.
Louanne Barros
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#115 - 2015-06-11 23:24:03 UTC
Also, you'll need to go back and re-film all the 'Trailer EVE" stuff, since they prominently feature warping to bookmarks.
I guess maybe there was a nearby covops in this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SI1CB4rcf8
Sven Viko VIkolander
Tang Ping
#116 - 2015-06-11 23:24:34 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi Gentle Space Foke,

As announced on the o7 show we are making some changes to fleet warp. Fleet Commanders, Wing Commanders & Squad Commanders will no longer be able to warp to anything a fleet member couldn’t warp to on their own. This includes –
  • Probe Results
  • Bookmarks
  • Any private deadspace item (missions, etc.)
Commanders will still be able to warp their fleet to other fleet members, and all other ‘public’ objects.

The goal of these changes is to encourage more individual fleet member participation and reduce the speed at which fleets can get on top of targets (e.g bombers).



This is an absolutely fantastic change. I've been campaigning for reductions in the ease of mobility of fleets--primarily via fleet warp--for years now, and this is a great change that certainly puts more responsibility on fleet members for mobility and scouts who can get into position for fleets.

Now for an even better change, remove fleet warp altogether.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#117 - 2015-06-11 23:25:02 UTC

1. Allow broadcast of a location, giving fleet members an option to warp to location
2. Allow locations to be linked in chat

.. both with a slight delay (the delay suggestion came from Mr. Fozzie)



This would meet your requirement of nerfing automation without making fleet warfare UI a tedious thing.



Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#118 - 2015-06-11 23:25:05 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:

Aebe Amraen wrote:
Probing and tackling are already important roles in any fleet; what this change actually does is gets rid of the notion of a prober as a stand-alone role. The prober must also be a tackler, with all the risk that entails.

A cloaky prober can't get into position so the FC can fleet warp to him/her?

The problem with this response is you are basically telling us 'You must use a T3 Cruiser for probing' now. Since they are the only Cov Ops & Probe capable ships with a chance of surviving any kind of combat. Combat probing already was relegated to T3's and Alts because it required too many sacrifices to make sense putting a ship on grid if it wasn't a T3.

Can I suggest as an alternative that a probe ship can broadcast a 'warp to' on a probe results that INDIVIDUAL FLEET MEMBERS can use to warp to. Bolded for emphasis as I'm not suggesting that fleet warp still be capable, but that say I was the prober, I could broadcast a warp to and this would allow anyone to use that probe result individually.

This could also be extended to bookmarks, sigs etc. People would still have to warp themselves achieving greater hands on play for individual fleet members, but without doubling the time required to do anything and forcing certain fits on the initial warp in pilots. I.E. I have a personal bookmark to my POS. I am in a NPSI fleet, and I've given them today's password. I broadcast a 'warp to' on the bookmark, and the fleet then warps there one by one. This allows one guy to stuff up, only press align and the cloaky shadowing our fleet jumps him as he's left alone on grid since the FC can't just warp everyone with one button.

But your current system of requiring one person to warp first then the fleet can follow is overly cumbersome, and if Fleet Warp ability is to be nerfed, you need to give something back to make up for that.
Jack Hayson
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#119 - 2015-06-11 23:25:20 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Q: CCP, why you do this?
A: We want transfer more responsibility for the success of a fleet from its FC to its members.

Then why allow fleet warps to other fleet members? That makes no sense in this context.
It just means that the FC needs to position his alt before warping the fleet.
Vala Ancalagon
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#120 - 2015-06-11 23:25:31 UTC
This is going to be pretty negative in wormholes, as it takes quite a while for corp bookmarks to propagate. This won't affect low/null sec gate movements at all, which is where I suspect a majority of the action takes place anyway. What will it achieve?

For a corp, the bookmarks are essentially public locations, especially in wormholes.