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Carnyx release - General feedback

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Koba Kyogen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1461 - 2015-06-10 01:50:10 UTC
Grubgrafter wrote:
and there was me getting all excited on having to patch only to find frigging new icons still here........ Evil



Fix this CCP. Was excited to see a patch, until...

Give us the option to use the legacy icons.

wtb CSM
Ida Aurlien
HIgh Sec Care Bears
Brothers of Tangra
#1462 - 2015-06-10 02:28:33 UTC
well 7 days for a reply.... just to say we are looking into it............. Tooo much like coke when they tried new coke was a total failure just like the changes to this game.......Oh but coke listened to their customers...... The failure to listen to the customers...........when you lose customers you never get them all back....... and the time it takes you to respond shows your true intent...... open your eyes ccp this will cost you.....
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1463 - 2015-06-10 02:51:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
Shpongled Victim wrote:
Desert Ice78 wrote:
CCP Surge wrote:


  1. First we hear from many of you the difference between NPC and player ships is simply too subtle with the new icon set, and we're right now experimenting with alternatives to separate these groups more, maybe adding entirely new shapes for NPC ships to make them more clearly stand out from players.


Have you tried big crosses?


Everything, but please no fckn bold red crosses again! Oh my god, people have to look more sci fi movies to get away with fat red crosses....even the military uses icons that offers more information than a big or small red cross....


It would be nice to land on grid and see, the Ishtar sitting 50K away as an Ishtar instead of an icon but reality is - We can't.
Reality is, we need icons that are easily identifiable, quickly.

Most people I know use 90% scaling because it is not so screen consuming, available screen space to look at moons, watch missile trails or see the guy next to you explode, is sort of important. If we don't have the option to see what is in space around us (because the overview takes up half your screen landscape) we may as well do away with all the pretties and just play with overviews and big red crosses.


Even at 90% scaling, once you have fleet windows up, local separated from the stack, fleet chat on one side and other chat windows crammed as far out of the way as possible (while still being able to read them if needed), plus any other windows you need open just to do what it is you want to do. There isn't much space left for anything else, like background effects, etc.

If what was suggested by CCP surge is correct,
Quote:
We want to keep 90% scaling as a option, but at the same time acknowledge that it will never look as good or be as cleanly supported as the other modes. We're also looking into whether we can easily add texture filtering which will make the icons smoother and slightly more readable at 90%.
It is a huge issue. Players should not have to compromise because a feature isn't, or can't be, properly supported.

"We'll add it, if it is easy", probably isn't a good design trend. Especially for one of the most important features of the whole game. How pretty the game looks is unimportant if adding texture filtering for a fundamental part of the game may be too hard.
If the icons as they are can't be fully supported, we need new icons (but not the old ones)

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Myriad Blaze
Common Sense Ltd
Nulli Secunda
#1464 - 2015-06-10 03:36:54 UTC
CCP Surge wrote:
I just finished reading through the latest rounds of feedback, and we've discussed the situation internally in depth now. So here's where we're at now, and the options we're considering with the icons:


  1. First we hear from many of you the difference between NPC and player ships is simply too subtle with the new icon set, and we're right now experimenting with alternatives to separate these groups more, maybe adding entirely new shapes for NPC ships to make them more clearly stand out from players.

  2. 90% UI scaling is definitely an issue, but a tricky one to solve. We we know its an underlying rendering issue that's been around much longer and not caused by the icons themselves, but one that's been suddenly and very clearly illuminated by their release. We want to keep 90% scaling as a option, but at the same time acknowledge that it will never look as good or be as cleanly supported as the other modes. We're also looking into whether we can easily add texture filtering which will make the icons smoother and slightly more readable at 90%.

  3. We also hear the general usability concern that item "groups" are not as clearly differentiated as with the old set (crosses vs brackets, vs Xs) and that many new icons are too detailed to identify quickly. In the previous iteration the ISIS-based overview icons were pulled back for this very reason: they were too difficult to quickly make out at the smaller Overview size.

    4. While we've added many new icons for separating types within a group, it has been at the cost of taking slightly longer to identify which group has appeared on grid (A player ship, NPC, or drone). It's also exacerbated by as-mentioned eyesight/accessibility problems and quick blob identification of a shape. I think this is at the root of many of your concerns, and we're now looking into what can be done to make groups of items slightly more distinctive, potentially giving people the option to use simpler group icons for brackets that's closer to the old system.

  4. We're meeting with the CSM later this week to discuss much of this feedback, and I'm sure many of your concerns will be represented as well. Either way the significance of this and your well reasoned responses in this thread aren't lost on us. I'll keep poking in here to keep you guys updated on any further actions coming with regards to the icons.

I already said what I had to say, so only a short remark from me and then I will stop posting here.

I'd like to remind you, that some people paid their subscriptions for a few months in advance. In my case my subscriptions (non recurring) are running til mid September before I need to add game time again. I just mention this, because I wouldn't like to see you get away with insisting "it wasn't me" in mid September.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#1465 - 2015-06-10 03:42:40 UTC
This really is turning in to a disaster.
Louanne Barros
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1466 - 2015-06-10 04:20:59 UTC
If you can't make it work with the existing game modes/features, don't release it.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#1467 - 2015-06-10 04:48:44 UTC
Louanne Barros wrote:
If you can't make it work with the existing game modes/features, don't release it.

The apparent surprise and lack of preparedness on the part of the developers leads me to question whether it really is a case of the changes failing regression testing and then being released regardless. As I find it hard to believe that they would be so clearly blindsided by their own substandard work only days after they choose to release it.

Instead, I'm seeing this behaviour as indicative of much deeper problems.

I sincerely hope that the CSM can pull this one back out of the fire before too much damage is done.
Tao Dolcino
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1468 - 2015-06-10 05:24:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Tao Dolcino
CCP Surge wrote:
we're now looking into what can be done to make groups of items slightly more distinctive, potentially giving people the option to use simpler group icons for brackets that's closer to the old system. [/list]


Then why the hell don't you simply give us the choice to use the old icons ?

You release half backed stuff.
You don't take into account the feedback from the players testing your experiments during their free time.
You are not aware of the conditions in which your customers are using your product (smaller, cheaper and older monitors than your pimpy giant ones cause you know, we don't all have your budget)

It's totally unprofessional.
Grubgrafter
Fortis fortuna adiuvat
#1469 - 2015-06-10 05:39:36 UTC
Bizarre, the only way CCP could respond to the icon feedback was to completely ignore 99% of it...

Ostrich head stuck in the sand box time again.... Promises, promises... Kind of remember the promises made by CCP management after the failed 'walking around stations' release.. and we are back there again.. Ignoring player feedback that isn't in tune with DEV thinking..

Bizarre..

Why release something into the main game that is clearly not ready? Rolling back would be a better option than leaving it in its current state..

Speaking to CSM after SISI testing would have made sense, talking to them now while leaving new icons in place is a joke...


Tao Dolcino
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1470 - 2015-06-10 05:47:21 UTC
CCP Surge wrote:
  • We're meeting with the CSM later this week to discuss much of this feedback, and I'm sure many of your concerns will be represented as well. Either way the significance of this and your well reasoned responses in this thread aren't lost on us. I'll keep poking in here to keep you guys updated on any further actions coming with regards to the icons.
    • [/list]


    Why bothering meeting people who have shown absolutely no interest in this concern ? There's not one post from a CSM member in these 1500 posts !
    Jeven HouseBenyo
    Vanity Thy Name Is
    #1471 - 2015-06-10 06:33:30 UTC
    Look, while you wait to have your meeting of Dev and CSM uberness, how about that option to use the old icons until you can whomp up a set of new ones that pass the sniff and squint test? Then those that like the new icons can keep them, those of us that really need those old ones back can do more than ship spin or distribution missions, and you have breathing space to do something other than change for change's sake.

    Like, perhaps, take a hard thoughtful look at your admitted substandard scaling setup.

    Or silly things like contrast and brightness sliders.

    Or the null-fracas going on with rookie ships fitted with entosis links shutting down stations on a whim.

    Or the still broken Notification Tab issues.

    Or the Launcher of EverBuggyness.

    Or the Beta Map of shiny but mostly gimped.

    Or the Opportunities of completely discarded after release.

    The more I experience this fast track release schedule, the more I'm thinking you might wanna hit the brakes, cool the ABs out of overheat, and give quality over broken quantity.

    >Jeven

    Minny boat flyer, unofficial squeaky wheel.

    'Game Ethics and Morality Monitor' I remember promises.

    Snark at 11-24/7/365.25. Overshare? Yup.

    Yes it's my fault. And if you don't staap it I'll do it again. ;-P

    No you can't has my stuffs OR my SPs.
    Louanne Barros
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #1472 - 2015-06-10 06:34:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Louanne Barros
    Guristas Ghost Sites still feature red crosses, even after today's patch.
    Enjoy it while you can.

    Also, when you fix the scaling, can we also have some better anti-aliasing?
    beakerax
    Pator Tech School
    #1473 - 2015-06-10 07:18:31 UTC
    CCP Surge wrote:
    I just finished reading through the latest rounds of feedback, and we've discussed the situation internally in depth now. So here's where we're at now, and the options we're considering with the icons:

    snip


    <3
    Steijn
    Quay Industries
    #1474 - 2015-06-10 07:29:21 UTC
    well ive slept on CCPs latest attempt at a peace offering and quite frankly, it stinks. Complete lack of regard for the paying customer and a mentality of 'its our game and we'll do what we want even though it might make it look worse than it originally was'.

    I did hope that this would be rectified before my subs expired. Safe to say after the statement last night that this will not be the case. You dont need to meet the CSM to try to contain this. All you need to do is to reinstate the old icons, either permanently, or temporarily until you find a solution, and actually do what most players want.

    I do wish CCP would have the balls to admit when they are totally wrong and not continually try to worm their way out of any mistakes they make.
    Natya Mebelle
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #1475 - 2015-06-10 10:05:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Natya Mebelle
    Shpongled Victim wrote:
    scaling down to 90% blures even my shipconsole UI, looks ****** but as i turned off anti aliasing everything looked sharp again. Mebe thers a issue with the icons?
    Could you please post screenshots of that? When I change scaling to 90% or 125% the icons look exactly the same, no matter if I have anti-aliasing on high or off. Also, thank you for proving that a large part of the issue is with UI scaling c:

    Louanne Barros wrote:
    Guristas Ghost Sites still feature red crosses, even after today's patch.
    Enjoy it while you can.
    Could you please post screenshots of those for ... you know... for nostalgia? *snickers*

    Bad Bobby wrote:
    The apparent surprise and lack of preparedness on the part of the developers leads me to question whether it really is a case of the changes failing regression testing and then being released regardless. As I find it hard to believe that they would be so clearly blindsided by their own substandard work only days after they choose to release it.
    It becomes more and more clear to me that developers simply do not have the time to work on features properly because management thinks it is a great idea to poop out content faster than they can eat. Case and proof for that: https://updates.eveonline.com/ . Do you remember when we had a lot of patches in the future? Now we barely see the next one with meagre features. Not only seems CCP to have run dry on content that can be delivered, but they're caught neck deep in the problems of previous patches.
    Next, if we look at devblogs... there is nothing on the horizon. What will happen after fozzysov is deployed completely? Where are Eve's goals?


    Louanne Barros: "If you can't make it work with the existing game modes/features, don't release it."
    Tao Dolcino: "Why bothering meeting people who have shown absolutely no interest in this concern ? There's not one post from a CSM member in these 1500 posts !"


    I find it appalling to not have even seen a single CSM post in this entire topic. Even if all of them don't mind the icon issue doesn't mean they should ignore the huge problems we're facing.
    If things go on like that, we're dipping back into 2007 in terms of player count and the older playerbase will continue to fade away. CCP will keep making money from people who log in, play 3 or 4 months and then go again. No game survived long without a strongly established playerbase.

    Eve has done so many great things, and it has proven so often that time and age does not matter. Only two years ago, Eve was keeping strong and bold in terms of player counters. But since the fast paced content schedule came, you're losing it. A lot.
    Subscriptions mean not much if your concurrent players decrease. It simply means more alt accounts with less player diversity. That is not what you want, as video game company of high reputation.

    Eve... CCP... you started to make history in 2003 and kept making good history throughout many years. You made history by acknowledging the Incarna failure, and came out stronger than ever. You do not need to repeat mistakes and you just need to look outside the office window to how other game companies have become utter failures. Maybe money-milking machines, but still failures.

    Please do not steer New Eden into a soulless, heartless oblivion filled with superficial shiny things :c
    Black Ambulance
    #1476 - 2015-06-10 10:19:08 UTC
    Natya Mebelle wrote:
    Shpongled Victim wrote:
    scaling down to 90% blures even my shipconsole UI, looks ****** but as i turned off anti aliasing everything looked sharp again. Mebe thers a issue with the icons?
    Could you please post screenshots of that? When I change scaling to 90% or 125% the icons look exactly the same, no matter if I have anti-aliasing on high or off. Also, thank you for proving that a large part of the issue is with UI scaling c:

    Louanne Barros wrote:
    Guristas Ghost Sites still feature red crosses, even after today's patch.
    Enjoy it while you can.
    Could you please post screenshots of those for ... you know... for nostalgia? *snickers*

    Bad Bobby wrote:
    The apparent surprise and lack of preparedness on the part of the developers leads me to question whether it really is a case of the changes failing regression testing and then being released regardless. As I find it hard to believe that they would be so clearly blindsided by their own substandard work only days after they choose to release it.
    It becomes more and more clear to me that developers simply do not have the time to work on features properly because management thinks it is a great idea to poop out content faster than they can eat. Case and proof for that: https://updates.eveonline.com/ . Do you remember when we had a lot of patches in the future? Now we barely see the next one with meagre features. Not only seems CCP to have run dry on content that can be delivered, but they're caught neck deep in the problems of previous patches.
    Next, if we look at devblogs... there is nothing on the horizon. What will happen after fozzysov is deployed completely? Where are Eve's goals?


    Louanne Barros: "If you can't make it work with the existing game modes/features, don't release it."
    Tao Dolcino: "Why bothering meeting people who have shown absolutely no interest in this concern ? There's not one post from a CSM member in these 1500 posts !"


    I find it appalling to not have even seen a single CSM post in this entire topic. Even if all of them don't mind the icon issue doesn't mean they should ignore the huge problems we're facing.
    If things go on like that, we're dipping back into 2007 in terms of player count and the older playerbase will continue to fade away. CCP will keep making money from people who log in, play 3 or 4 months and then go again. No game survived long without a strongly established playerbase.

    Eve has done so many great things, and it has proven so often that time and age does not matter. Only two years ago, Eve was keeping strong and bold in terms of player counters. But since the fast paced content schedule came, you're losing it. A lot.
    Subscriptions mean not much if your concurrent players decrease. It simply means more alt accounts with less player diversity. That is not what you want, as video game company of high reputation.

    Eve... CCP... you started to make history in 2003 and kept making good history throughout many years. You made history by acknowledging the Incarna failure, and came out stronger than ever. You do not need to repeat mistakes and you just need to look outside the office window to how other game companies have become utter failures. Maybe money-milking machines, but still failures.

    Please do not steer New Eden into a soulless, heartless oblivion filled with superficial shiny things :c


    Next patch we may have colored neocoms icons , yay :)
    Panterata
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #1477 - 2015-06-10 10:36:25 UTC
    Quote:
    1. First we hear from many of you the difference between NPC and player ships is simply too subtle with the new icon set, and we're right now experimenting with alternatives to separate these groups more, maybe adding entirely new shapes for NPC ships to make them more clearly stand out from players.


    Jesus

    Are you deaf or blind or again you are doing what you want?! I will try with simple English words

    1. PVP overview icons - simple SQUARE as before for ANY SHIPS CLASS!!!
    2. NPC overview icons - BIG cross for BS, med cross for BC, small cross for frigates as before!!!

    3. IF SOMEONE wants to use new icons make an option to change it if player wish!!
    uhnboy ghost
    Corporation 98237776
    #1478 - 2015-06-10 11:35:54 UTC  |  Edited by: uhnboy ghost
    CCP Surge wrote:
    I just finished reading through the latest rounds of feedback, and we've discussed the situation internally in depth now. So here's where we're at now, and the options we're considering with the icons:


    1. First we hear from many of you the difference between NPC and player ships is simply too subtle with the new icon set, and we're right now experimenting with alternatives to separate these groups more, maybe adding entirely new shapes for NPC ships to make them more clearly stand out from players.

    2. 90% UI scaling is definitely an issue, but a tricky one to solve. We we know its an underlying rendering issue that's been around much longer and not caused by the icons themselves, but one that's been suddenly and very clearly illuminated by their release. We want to keep 90% scaling as a option, but at the same time acknowledge that it will never look as good or be as cleanly supported as the other modes. We're also looking into whether we can easily add texture filtering which will make the icons smoother and slightly more readable at 90%.

    3. We also hear the general usability concern that item "groups" are not as clearly differentiated as with the old set (crosses vs brackets, vs Xs) and that many new icons are too detailed to identify quickly. In the previous iteration the ISIS-based overview icons were pulled back for this very reason: they were too difficult to quickly make out at the smaller Overview size.

      4. While we've added many new icons for separating types within a group, it has been at the cost of taking slightly longer to identify which group has appeared on grid (A player ship, NPC, or drone). It's also exacerbated by as-mentioned eyesight/accessibility problems and quick blob identification of a shape. I think this is at the root of many of your concerns, and we're now looking into what can be done to make groups of items slightly more distinctive, potentially giving people the option to use simpler group icons for brackets that's closer to the old system.

    4. We're meeting with the CSM later this week to discuss much of this feedback, and I'm sure many of your concerns will be represented as well. Either way the significance of this and your well reasoned responses in this thread aren't lost on us. I'll keep poking in here to keep you guys updated on any further actions coming with regards to the icons.


    5. adding a option to use the old sets of icons/brackets for players that cant see the new icons

    the icons is to small to have 20 diffrent variants of triangles whit added lines etc in the small space that can fitt in to a ov icon or in a space bracket ...

    the old + [ ] X was good because it was easy to see and was easy to scal up whitout and info getting lost


    ccp there are only 1 option at this point, give me a option to use the old icons/brackets so i can play again,
    then ccp/csm/and who ever wants to try to fix the new icons can do that and get good feedback from ppl wanting to use them and not just have to read all of usless (like this) posts that only say "give me them back"

    //uhnboy 84K probe scans in 2014 http://i.imgur.com/Uaid5iu.png
    Ereilian
    Doomheim
    #1479 - 2015-06-10 11:36:31 UTC
    Panterata wrote:
    Quote:
    1. First we hear from many of you the difference between NPC and player ships is simply too subtle with the new icon set, and we're right now experimenting with alternatives to separate these groups more, maybe adding entirely new shapes for NPC ships to make them more clearly stand out from players.


    Jesus

    Are you deaf or blind or again you are doing what you want?! I will try with simple English words

    1. PVP overview icons - simple SQUARE as before for ANY SHIPS CLASS!!!
    2. NPC overview icons - BIG cross for BS, med cross for BC, small cross for frigates as before!!!

    3. IF SOMEONE wants to use new icons make an option to change it if player wish!!


    Sadly CCP have once again shown a total disregard for feedback during "testing" on SiSi and have driven through a change that was not asked for and has received almost universal condemnation.

    In other words, business as usual. Deploy stuff no one wants, ignore stuff that are still broken 12 years later, if anyone mentions fixing POS kill the post with fire.

    Greed is good is still alive and well.
    Benito Arias
    Angry Mustellid
    #1480 - 2015-06-10 11:37:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Benito Arias
    CCP Surge wrote:
    I just finished reading through the latest rounds of feedback, and we've discussed the situation internally in depth now. So here's where we're at now, and the options we're considering with the icons:


    1. First we hear from many of you the difference between NPC and player ships is simply too subtle with the new icon set, and we're right now experimenting with alternatives to separate these groups more, maybe adding entirely new shapes for NPC ships to make them more clearly stand out from players.

    2. 90% UI scaling is definitely an issue, but a tricky one to solve. We we know its an underlying rendering issue that's been around much longer and not caused by the icons themselves, but one that's been suddenly and very clearly illuminated by their release. We want to keep 90% scaling as a option, but at the same time acknowledge that it will never look as good or be as cleanly supported as the other modes. We're also looking into whether we can easily add texture filtering which will make the icons smoother and slightly more readable at 90%.

    3. We also hear the general usability concern that item "groups" are not as clearly differentiated as with the old set (crosses vs brackets, vs Xs) and that many new icons are too detailed to identify quickly. In the previous iteration the ISIS-based overview icons were pulled back for this very reason: they were too difficult to quickly make out at the smaller Overview size.

      4. While we've added many new icons for separating types within a group, it has been at the cost of taking slightly longer to identify which group has appeared on grid (A player ship, NPC, or drone). It's also exacerbated by as-mentioned eyesight/accessibility problems and quick blob identification of a shape. I think this is at the root of many of your concerns, and we're now looking into what can be done to make groups of items slightly more distinctive, potentially giving people the option to use simpler group icons for brackets that's closer to the old system.

    4. We're meeting with the CSM later this week to discuss much of this feedback, and I'm sure many of your concerns will be represented as well. Either way the significance of this and your well reasoned responses in this thread aren't lost on us. I'll keep poking in here to keep you guys updated on any further actions coming with regards to the icons.


    1. Are you saying you are considering doubling the amount of shapes? This is just wrong, the existing amount of them already breaks things (reading grid and overview).

    2. So admit that is broken, and you are going to keep it so for the nearest feature. Brilliant.

    3. Yes, the groups are hard to tell apart. Yes, that also means your intended telling classes apart thingy has become slower, too. No, slightly more distinctive and simpler is not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for "cross-X-bracket" type distinctive and "cross-X-bracket" type simple. That simple, please.

    4. I think the significance is kind of lost on you. It's been a week since you released this thing which both Sisi feedback thread and the release feedback thread say does not work, and you are still into making small adjustments to it.


    CCP Surge, is there any chance you could roll back from what's broken to what was not (classic brackets) while you are considering and experimenting and meeting and keeping us informed on further actions. Pretty please, with a cherry on top?