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Do not train to fly battleships
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Gh0stBust3rs
Project.Nova
The Initiative.
#161 - 2015-05-23 01:56:32 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:

Wont waste all of the day comparing ships with you. How many SP will said golem pilot need? End of discussion with you. You really should read the original post.


Translation:

You cannot argue your side because you have zero experience to fall back on when faced with someone with vastly more experience flying the hulls in question. Battleships are fine and in the best shape they have ever been in with a huge number of differing options.



Come on now Baltec1 The newbie doesnt understand that this is a paper rock scissors game.

Yes you can fit some smartbombs to cruisers to kill things like drones. But what about webs scrams and target painters all of which make you easier to hit?

What about the fact that if you swiss army knife your fits as much as he is talking you dont actually have the damage to kill a bs?

BCs sig radius are big enough to be easily track by L guns.

I am almost tempted to let him pick a battleship for me to fit and he can bring 5 friends and we shall see who wins.
Gh0stBust3rs
Project.Nova
The Initiative.
#162 - 2015-05-23 02:26:28 UTC
btw battleships are supposed to be high sp plaforms. just because most nullsec fleet fits are lower sp to get more numbers doesnt mean you shouldnt aim higher if you want to solo or small gang with battleships.
Lasse R Farnsworth
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#163 - 2015-05-23 02:47:54 UTC
I'm an small ship pilot .. check my killboard, I fly mostly frigs. But I must say flying in a Baltec1 megathron ganked was one of the most stupid fun I ever had .. .100 Battleships with an awesome range, you melt stuff ... Most new player just rush to fast into ships. Heck even after flying tons of small **** I even are not competent in a slicer for example ... that small laser train ;) So I conclude the slicer is **** because ..
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#164 - 2015-05-23 04:17:24 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:

Wont waste all of the day comparing ships with you. How many SP will said golem pilot need? End of discussion with you. You really should read the original post.


Translation:

You cannot argue your side because you have zero experience to fall back on when faced with someone with vastly more experience flying the hulls in question. Battleships are fine and in the best shape they have ever been in with a huge number of differing options.

You like to ignore the SP requirement which is at the heart of this thread. Battleships are not worth the time it takes to fly them.
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#165 - 2015-05-23 04:21:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Haatakan Reppola
Aza Ebanu wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:

Wont waste all of the day comparing ships with you. How many SP will said golem pilot need? End of discussion with you. You really should read the original post.


Translation:

You cannot argue your side because you have zero experience to fall back on when faced with someone with vastly more experience flying the hulls in question. Battleships are fine and in the best shape they have ever been in with a huge number of differing options.

You like to ignore the SP requirement which is at the heart of this thread. Battleships are not worth the time it takes to fly them.


Make a fit and say what skills are needed for a cruiser and see if any of the BS supporters can match it (with skill im mor etalking about time to train from new made character)

Make a baseline for what you think is worth the train and compare that to what a BS need for equal benefit.


EDIT:
Looked at the SP needed to use the ships (i know, nowhere near what you shoul dhav eto fly it)
T2 frigate:
Frigate 5 - 512 000 (509 171 for the race you start as)
T2 frigate skill - 1 000
Total 513 000 (510171 for the race you start as)

T2 cruiser:
Frigate 4 - 90 510 (87 681 for the race you start as)
Cruiser 5 - 1 280 000
T2 Cruiser skill - 1 500
Long Range Targeting 5 - 512 000
Signature Analysis - 256 000
Total 2 140 010 (2 137 181 for the race you start as), using Logistics sinc ethats the shortest train (48 days vs 60-70days)

Battleship:
Frigate 4 - 90 510 (87 681 for the race you start as)
Cruiser 4 - 226 275
Battleship skill - 2000
Total 318 785 (315 956 for the race you start as)

Sitting in a BS takes LESS SP than sitting in a T2 frig!
Compared to a T2 Cruiser you have 1 821 225 SP you use for core skills.
Comparing lvl 5 ship skill we get 2 364 785 (2 361 956) for Battleship and 3 674 510 (3 671 681) for T2 Cruiser, closer but still 1 309 725 SP left for extra core skill son the battleship (more than 14x rank 2 skills to 4!)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#166 - 2015-05-23 04:55:47 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Aza Ebanu wrote:

You like to ignore the SP requirement which is at the heart of this thread. Battleships are not worth the time it takes to fly them.


It takes just as long to skill into t2 cruisers/frigates and even longer for things like command ships and t3. SP is a non argument. You want long skill trains? You can have the SP to fly a competent raven in the time it takes to train caldari dread V
Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#167 - 2015-05-23 05:34:15 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:

Wont waste all of the day comparing ships with you. How many SP will said golem pilot need? End of discussion with you. You really should read the original post.


Translation:

You cannot argue your side because you have zero experience to fall back on when faced with someone with vastly more experience flying the hulls in question. Battleships are fine and in the best shape they have ever been in with a huge number of differing options.

You like to ignore the SP requirement which is at the heart of this thread. Battleships are not worth the time it takes to fly them.


It very much depends on what you're doing. Many L4's and pretty much all L5's are best done in a Battleship. There are also certain other PvE endeavors in which a Battleship is the more efficient choice - full clearing (not blitzing) missions come to mind.

That said, I generally agree with you. The time investment required to train into the hull and necessary weapons/modules is better applied to getting into smaller T2 hulls, which are inherently more efficient in terms of the SP:Productivity ratio. When I first got into EvE, I trained into battleships because I thought it was the only way to do L4's and L5's (mind you, this was before T3 Strategic Cruisers). In hindsight, I should have trained into HAC's earlier on.
Valkin Mordirc
#168 - 2015-05-23 09:02:59 UTC
This guy went from

All Battleships suck


All T1 Battleships Suck, my experience proves it

All T1 exclude drone and Gal Battleships suck

All Battleships suck because the SP req is to high

Everyone should instead train to t3's and HAC's because it's...easier....lol


Tis a Silly thread indeed.
#DeleteTheWeak
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#169 - 2015-05-23 12:02:41 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:

You like to ignore the SP requirement which is at the heart of this thread. Battleships are not worth the time it takes to fly them.


It takes just as long to skill into t2 cruisers/frigates and even longer for things like command ships and t3. SP is a non argument. You want long skill trains? You can have the SP to fly a competent raven in the time it takes to train caldari dread V



You can't beat a stupidity tank on the forums. This BS hater is in GODMODE.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#170 - 2015-05-23 21:36:20 UTC
I don't see the problem here. This is good advice based on the game design principles. No ship has a superior tank except speed and signature. That is why CCP had to re-design speed/sig tanking. Speed/sig tanking is still one of the best ways to mitigate damage. Therefore, battleships tank the least because, they have the highest sig and slowest speed. Ship HP mean less than the ability to reduce damage by speed and sig. So players should stay in smaller ships, anything else is just a waste of skill points.

Everyone opposed to my post has the same things in common with their ideas:

1.Battleships need support (from smaller ships)
2. You have to fit it right (Anti speed modules)
3. It has to fit a bunch of tank (because it soaks up more damage than any other ship(cap ships excluded))
4. They are fine if they are (have natural bonus to anti speed/drones, tracking speed, or some other anti small ship )
5. No counter to cap ships except: "run for your lives".
6. SP requirements are higher for other ships if you want to fly a battleship without core skills & weapons.... (no need to comment)
7. Snark


That's all they've got. Typical responses from the "play the game my way" crowd. They must trade battleships in the market and don't want the bad press to slow down their sales.

If there's nothing wrong with battleships? Then why are they so needy?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#171 - 2015-05-23 23:40:07 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Aza Ebanu wrote:

If there's nothing wrong with battleships? Then why are they so needy?


They aren't.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#172 - 2015-05-24 00:19:26 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:

If there's nothing wrong with battleships? Then why are they so needy?


They aren't.

Not according to the feedback from this post.
Valkin Mordirc
#173 - 2015-05-24 03:16:43 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:

If there's nothing wrong with battleships? Then why are they so needy?


They aren't.

Not according to the feedback from this post.



I thought you said you didn't want a solo boat?

Your a pancake man,


Flip floppity. 
#DeleteTheWeak
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#174 - 2015-05-24 04:53:22 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
A fleet of frigates vs a fleet of battleships isn't a question, its a ridiculous, unpractical hypothetical. As I've already stated, a BS can be part of a well balanced fleet. A bowl of cereal is not a nutritious breakfast. Its part of a well balanced breakfast. And it would be a stalemate at very best no matter how the BS's were fit, because Drones. What do you think, the cluster of battleships is going to all be within 15k of the center of the mass? so that no frig is within range of any battleship? and no BS has drones? or a web? Give me a break.


It happens all the time. at gatecamps null, high sec wars and hell even the alliance tournament.
I see the problem here. You all fly Gallente battleships that fit neuts, web, and high damaging drones. I understand. As I said earlier, "the Domi is a really good ship".


1. Show me the tournament match of a fleet of frigates beating a fleet of battleships.
2. Show me a gatecamp involving a FLEET of battleships vs a FLEET of frigs.
3. Show me a HiSec war involving a FLEET of battleships vs a FLEET of frigs.

Oh wait, those examples all involve a bunch of frigs ganging up on a BS with no utility? Yeah, a fleet of vets will beat a smaller fleet of noobs pretty much every single time. You changed your argument from "battleships suck" to "battleships not fit for PvP in a fleet not fit for PvP suck".

My Armageddon fits drones, neuts, and a web.


internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#175 - 2015-05-24 07:53:01 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
A fleet of frigates vs a fleet of battleships isn't a question, its a ridiculous, unpractical hypothetical. As I've already stated, a BS can be part of a well balanced fleet. A bowl of cereal is not a nutritious breakfast. Its part of a well balanced breakfast. And it would be a stalemate at very best no matter how the BS's were fit, because Drones. What do you think, the cluster of battleships is going to all be within 15k of the center of the mass? so that no frig is within range of any battleship? and no BS has drones? or a web? Give me a break.


It happens all the time. at gatecamps null, high sec wars and hell even the alliance tournament.
I see the problem here. You all fly Gallente battleships that fit neuts, web, and high damaging drones. I understand. As I said earlier, "the Domi is a really good ship".


1. Show me the tournament match of a fleet of frigates beating a fleet of battleships.
2. Show me a gatecamp involving a FLEET of battleships vs a FLEET of frigs.
3. Show me a HiSec war involving a FLEET of battleships vs a FLEET of frigs.

Oh wait, those examples all involve a bunch of frigs ganging up on a BS with no utility? Yeah, a fleet of vets will beat a smaller fleet of noobs pretty much every single time. You changed your argument from "battleships suck" to "battleships not fit for PvP in a fleet not fit for PvP suck".

My Armageddon fits drones, neuts, and a web.



Its not about fleets and fits though. Its about necessity. There is no good reason to fly battleships.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#176 - 2015-05-24 08:21:59 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:

Its not about fleets and fits though. Its about necessity. There is no good reason to fly battleships.


I just showed you a golem ripping apart entire fleets alone.
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#177 - 2015-05-24 16:01:43 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


They aren't.


I cried a little bit when I saw that. Tears of joy. Just, there was something so beautiful about that. I am completely amazed by the skill and fortitude displayed by that gentlemen. I didn't know such a thing were possible. Especially with such a thing as missiles, I hear so often that missiles are a joke in PvP but that man freaking made it look easy.

I still can't quite understand what I just saw. Like, all that massive DPS and yet he managed to keep his shields up. And that smartbomb he never used even when surrounded by drones, like did he just decide clearing out enemy drones would make it too easy???

I am completely and utterly flaberghasted. Much respect for that man.

Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Perihelion Olenard
#178 - 2015-05-24 18:16:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Perihelion Olenard
That's a few billion of isk into the ship and modules. In the video he said he lost marauders to fleets with logistics, neuts, or capital ships/black ops. Still, they can be impressive against the right fleet composition. That can be said of any combat ship, though.

I fly a Kronos, but it is a PvE fit. I'm still debating whether to train Marauders 5 and have one for PvP once I get back into it.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#179 - 2015-05-24 21:19:55 UTC
Perihelion Olenard wrote:
That's a few billion of isk into the ship and modules. In the video he said he lost marauders to fleets with logistics, neuts, or capital ships/black ops. Still, they can be impressive against the right fleet composition. That can be said of any combat ship, though.

I fly a Kronos, but it is a PvE fit. I'm still debating whether to train Marauders 5 and have one for PvP once I get back into it.


Do it, you wont regret it.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#180 - 2015-05-25 06:08:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Vimsy Vortis
Cipher Jones wrote:
3. Show me a HiSec war involving a FLEET of battleships vs a FLEET of frigs.


As an experienced highsec douchebag I can attest to this being a totally unrealistic scenario. The typical highsec battleship fleet consists of Vindicators/Navy Megathrons/Typhoon fleet issues with Bhaalgorns/Armageddons with Guardian logistics. They pack so much webbing and neuting power and hit point buffer that even a large, organized assault frigate gang wouldn't go near them with a ten foot barge pole.

And because neutral alts and knowing who can shoot you any substantial fleet sees an opposing fleet coming 95% of the time. Even if a a frigate fleet caught a straggler from a battleship fleet because they by chance didn't notice the main fleet they'd bail immediately when 10 more faction battleships and remote reps landed.

Battleship doctrines (when the involved parties actually have defined doctrines) are still fairly dominant in "serious" highsec engagements. The only thing more common is armor T3s.

When I go to the home system of some other mercenary alliance the thing I expect to see them bring out to shoot back is vindicators and guardians, not enyos.