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[Carnyx] Sentry Drone Adjustments

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Taram Caldar
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#41 - 2015-05-21 14:57:01 UTC
Just my opinion but sentries aren't the problem, currently. The problem is the bonuses on the ishtar that push their drone damage, in general, so over and above the damage output of other ships in their peer group.

I know you prefer to adjust weapon groups rather than ship bonuses but in this case the problem is, very clearly, the ship bonuses. It's not the drones themselves. The only drone boats being abused are the ones with the insane drone bonuses. Other ships use drones but you don't see entire drone doctrines around them like you do the ishtar and domi.

Tone those ship bonuses down rather than crippling a weapon class for every ship in the game.

"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.  He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
Jessica Danikov
Network Danikov
#42 - 2015-05-21 14:57:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Jessica Danikov
How about returning drones to the traditional meta where both the speed of the attacker and the defender play into tracking and damage application? The fact that drone boats enjoy full mobility without any penalty to damage application has always been disproportionately advantageous.

The fix is simple- have sentry drones be aimed by the hull, e.g. make the tracking relative to the hull. This will improve tracking in certain circumstances, while reducing it in many others, often proportional to any defensive bonuses incurred through piloting. Fundamentally, piloting will play a bigger part in sentry drone pilots lives rather than sentry drones being easy mode and thus favoured for nerfs into the ground.
Valterra Craven
#43 - 2015-05-21 15:00:59 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tyr Dolorem wrote:
Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem?

Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both.


I'm curious, what evidence do you have to support your argument that both drones and hulls are the problem, as opposed to just drones, or just hulls. I've seen no data analysis posted by devs in this thread as to why they think sentries themselves are still the problem. Or are you guys just basing balancing decisions on gut feelings now? :P
Lord LazyGhost
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2015-05-21 15:02:06 UTC
Jessica Danikov wrote:
How about returning drones to the traditional meta where both the speed of the attacker and the defender play into tracking and damage application? The fact that drone boats enjoy full mobility without any penalty to damage application has always been disproportionately advantageous.

The fix is simple- have sentry drones be aimed by the hull, e.g. make the tracking relative to the hull. This will improve tracking in certain circumstances, while reducing it in many others, often proportional to any defensive bonuses incurred through piloting. Fundamentally, piloting will play a bigger part in sentry drone pilots lives rather than sentry drones being easy mode and thus favoured for nerfs into the ground.


got to remmber unlike other ships drones can loose all their dammage if killed
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
Insidious.
#45 - 2015-05-21 15:04:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tyr Dolorem wrote:
Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem?

Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both.


Because the geddon, rattle, and drone proteus are causing sooo many problems right now. Let's not even talk about these non-stop nestor fleets....
Valterra Craven
#46 - 2015-05-21 15:05:16 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Current plan is:
Gardes: -25% Optimal, +33% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking
Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking
Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking

We welcome feedback as always!


I think what you need to do is compare these drones to what they are supposed to be competing with.

So for example, is the garde supposed to be competitive with blasters or rails?

If blasters, then gardes need high damage, high tracking, low range.
If rails, then gardes need moderate damage, low tracking, high range.

From there you just compare how many drones a player has and find dps profiles that match ships, So for example a blaster mega compared to a garde wielding domi.

Given you keep nuking the optimal of the garde it seems to me you want to compare it to blasters, so why are you still nuking the tracking and damage on it?
Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#47 - 2015-05-21 15:05:20 UTC
Has there ever been talk at CCP about Creating S,M,L, and XL sentries? If so what is preventing these from coming into game and making this a better fix by removing L weapons from cruiser hulls?
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#48 - 2015-05-21 15:06:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Valterra Craven wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tyr Dolorem wrote:
Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem?

Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both.


I'm curious, what evidence do you have to support your argument that both drones and hulls are the problem, as opposed to just drones, or just hulls. I've seen no data analysis posted by devs in this thread as to why they think sentries themselves are still the problem. Or are you guys just basing balancing decisions on gut feelings now? :P


http://i.imgur.com/GqTO6zd.png
http://i.imgur.com/cP7kPvH.png

Working as intended.

Feel free to provide me a Zealot setup that would match that at least within 10%. P

Bonuses being the obvious part, as has been said, you can't balance sentry carriers without looking at the weapon system as a whole.

P.S. Don't say, Shoot into their EM hole! Rectified by replacing one hardener. Cool

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2015-05-21 15:07:48 UTC
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tyr Dolorem wrote:
Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem?

Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both.


Because the geddon, rattle and drone proteus are causing sooo many problems right now......


Nah, it's the Myrm's o' DOOM.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#50 - 2015-05-21 15:10:50 UTC
Fredric Wolf wrote:
Has there ever been talk at CCP about Creating S,M,L, and XL sentries? If so what is preventing these from coming into game and making this a better fix by removing L weapons from cruiser hulls?


a better solution would be to just get rid of sentries
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#51 - 2015-05-21 15:11:56 UTC
Mind **** wrote:
well done Fozzie, another ship nerfed into crap.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
We welcome feedback as always!


nope you don't.


You're joking right?

Sentry drones were, and still are going to be, utterly broken.

What is wrong with you people. Fozzie still didn't go far enough.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#52 - 2015-05-21 15:13:51 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Ishtar still not fixed by this.

Xaxaxa


Yep, it will still be far and away the most powerful HAC.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#53 - 2015-05-21 15:15:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Lord LazyGhost wrote:
Jessica Danikov wrote:
How about returning drones to the traditional meta where both the speed of the attacker and the defender play into tracking and damage application? The fact that drone boats enjoy full mobility without any penalty to damage application has always been disproportionately advantageous.

The fix is simple- have sentry drones be aimed by the hull, e.g. make the tracking relative to the hull. This will improve tracking in certain circumstances, while reducing it in many others, often proportional to any defensive bonuses incurred through piloting. Fundamentally, piloting will play a bigger part in sentry drone pilots lives rather than sentry drones being easy mode and thus favoured for nerfs into the ground.


got to remmber unlike other ships drones can loose all their dammage if killed


Got to remember unlike the other turret ships, drones track their targets irrespective of the velocity, range, or direction of the host ship, and losing target lock does not nullify damage dealt.

Capless, omni-damage weapons systems to boot. Roll

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2015-05-21 15:17:39 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tyr Dolorem wrote:
Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem?

Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both.


How about you nerf the fundamental problem of disjointed transversal and the ability to command an entity from 120km that can itself reach beyond even that on a hull size that is usually restricted to 30-70km engagements, rather than introducing nerfs that hurt non-abusive doctrines and are countered by the abusive doctrine by simply bringing more dudes?

In other words: If you keep nerfing only the projection and damage of sentries, people will bring MORE of them, and it will become (even more) a doctrine that is useless to small groups and overpowered for large groups, because raw stats aren't the issue with the ishtar.

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#55 - 2015-05-21 15:22:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Desudes wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tyr Dolorem wrote:
Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem?

Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both.


How about you nerf the fundamental problem of disjointed transversal and the ability to command an entity from 120km that can itself reach beyond even that on a hull size that is usually restricted to 30-70km engagements, rather than introducing nerfs that hurt non-abusive doctrines and are countered by the abusive doctrine by simply bringing more dudes?


The solution is far simpler - remove the Optimal range part of the double bonus on the Ishtar.

Let them choose either Range+Tank, or Damage - not all three at once, exceeding all the other HACs by a broken amount, even the Eagle.

Quote:
In other words: If you keep nerfing only the projection and damage of sentries, people will bring MORE of them, and it will become (even more) a doctrine that is useless to small groups and overpowered for large groups, because raw stats aren't the issue with the ishtar.


That will be the case until the fundamental problem of those double bonuses is resolves.

Long live the Wardens!

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Rumpelstilz Rumtopf
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#56 - 2015-05-21 15:24:37 UTC
target : destroy a funny game. another step is done!
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#57 - 2015-05-21 15:25:26 UTC
Altrue wrote:
I'm on board with the idea of sentry ships being too strong.

I'm not on board with the concept of nerfing the weapon system instead of the broken hulls.

While you remove 3% dps, drone boats still run around with double 10/7.5 bonuses, drone boats still run around with the same PWG / CPU levels than other ships of their class, even though they don't have to fit weapons (!), ishtars can still use battleship weapons...

So yeah... its too little, too far away from the real issue. But at least the conclusion that something needs to change with sentries is good.



The problem us that drone ships of medium size (hacs, commands) can field bs size drones. If you renove those ships from equation you end up with either: slow cats and sentry domnis/other bs. Thise are waaay slower making them easier to counter and easier to balance in this regard.

Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?
Zafrena Tyrleon
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2015-05-21 15:27:45 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone! For our Carnyx release at the beginning of June we're planning on making some moderate tweaks to sentry drones, part of our ongoing process of massaging drone combat into a healthier place in the meta.

These are a very specific and limited set of changes that we believe will benefit the game, but it's important to know that these are explicitly not intended to be a "once and for all" fix for every problem related to sentries. There's no such thing as a balance silver bullet.

The main goals of these changes are to further improve the intra-class balance between sentry drones (smoothing out the progression in tracking speed and compressing the damage spread a bit) and slightly reducing the power level of some sentry fits and doctrines, especially for Bouncers and Curators that are quite dominant in a few areas.

Current plan is:
Gardes: -25% Optimal, +33% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking
Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking
Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking

We welcome feedback as always!


You're directing the nerfs to the wrong place. Re-adjust drone bandwidth across the board. Change Heavy Drones to 20 (and Geckos to 40), leave sentries alone and then juggle bandwidth on the hulls.

More work? Absolutely. But it's not a bandaid, it's a proper fix. If the Ishtar (and whatever other cruisers) can field only 4 Sentries, it's not quite BS-level damage anymore.

What you're doing here is just moving the goalposts every 6 weeks to the point where people are frustrated with the situation. You guys are doing huge, sweeping changes to sov - why not consider doing it to drones?
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#59 - 2015-05-21 15:30:34 UTC
Max Kolonko wrote:
Altrue wrote:
I'm on board with the idea of sentry ships being too strong.

I'm not on board with the concept of nerfing the weapon system instead of the broken hulls.

While you remove 3% dps, drone boats still run around with double 10/7.5 bonuses, drone boats still run around with the same PWG / CPU levels than other ships of their class, even though they don't have to fit weapons (!), ishtars can still use battleship weapons...

So yeah... its too little, too far away from the real issue. But at least the conclusion that something needs to change with sentries is good.



The problem us that drone ships of medium size (hacs, commands) can field bs size drones. If you renove those ships from equation you end up with either: slow cats and sentry domnis/other bs. Thise are waaay slower making them easier to counter and easier to balance in this regard.


Even unbonused Wardens on the Ishtar would still be broken w/ base 75km + 42km range.

Agreed.

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Tyr Dolorem
State War Academy
Caldari State
#60 - 2015-05-21 15:30:56 UTC
Max Kolonko wrote:
Altrue wrote:
I'm on board with the idea of sentry ships being too strong.

I'm not on board with the concept of nerfing the weapon system instead of the broken hulls.

While you remove 3% dps, drone boats still run around with double 10/7.5 bonuses, drone boats still run around with the same PWG / CPU levels than other ships of their class, even though they don't have to fit weapons (!), ishtars can still use battleship weapons...

So yeah... its too little, too far away from the real issue. But at least the conclusion that something needs to change with sentries is good.



The problem us that drone ships of medium size (hacs, commands) can field bs size drones. If you renove those ships from equation you end up with either: slow cats and sentry domnis/other bs. Thise are waaay slower making them easier to counter and easier to balance in this regard.


If the problem was cruisers fielding BS size drones wouldn't people be crying about how broken a heavy drone VNI is? It's not the sentries that are the problem (at least on subs) its the bonuses that are applied to them from the hull.