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Dev Blog: Shake my Citadel

First post First post
Author
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#381 - 2015-05-13 16:02:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer
Making them not drop anything as a means to prevent them being loot piniatas will fail because of the "kill everything" game play.

Making them drop stuff means profit. The latter would be closer to the game intention, but as usual, like Dictor Bubbles in Thera, if there is one thing "for the grief", then that one thing becomes "the" thing and it's basically over before it starts.

And the meh continues. 5 years ago these Drifters would have been such epic content introduction there would be a body count from the nerdgasms. Not now.

Also.... why no self destruct? Does every loss have to be somebody's killmail?


In the end, we can argue that yes, the game is all about sand castles and knocking them down. But it's like trying to build them on the beach with lifeguards putting huge red flags on the castles and then giving rides to the kids who want to knock them down. It's always all gain for one side, all loss for another.

So I would not be surprised if, after the introduction of Citadels, CCP allows dreads in highsec. Sometimes I suspect that CCP has in internal civil war going on between an old guard that wants harshness for everybody and an SA infestation that wants to kill it via harshness for only the "pubbies".

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

159Pinky
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#382 - 2015-05-13 16:05:44 UTC
Axloth Okiah wrote:
Some items and ships need to drop from citadels or why would we bother attacking them? Or why would anyone bother defending them if all they stand to lose is the value of only the citadel itself.

Wormholers currently have 100s of bilions worth of ships in their POSes and its one of the things that drive the massive fights we can witness every now and then - attackers want to destroy/loot them, defendes want to keep them. Compared to that, cost of the citadel itself will be peanuts and noone will bother fighting over it.

Please consider some drop mechanic, or maybe salvaging of the loot over time. IE the citadel wrecks slowly decay over time and shed loot (ships, modules, whatever) as salvage for anyone who shows up to get it. This could even spark some activity around old wrecks of mighty and rich citadels, as scavengers would come in search of riches.


This.

The safety net is multiple timers and the fact that the entosis links cannot be remote repped. So if you fail to defend with the huge defenses at your disposal to kill ships that cannot be assisted / or ecm them out then you should deserve to lose your stuff.
Just make the stuff drop like ships drop their cargo: chance based in containers, first come, first serve.

Can we please limit the volume of docked ships / corp + personal hangers? One reason for doing this was getting some more realism into the game mechanics. It would be kinda ridiculous to have 50 carriers ( 3km axis ) dock in a 100 km space ( since they will be manoeuvering there as well. Second reasoning behind this: you want these to be very strong, so just drop an xl one in enemy space, tank it to hell, dock your complete super fleet and when the enemy show up undock them all....

Question regarding your design: Is it your intention that you can kill any enemy attacking your structure with these guns ( even at max range with T2 entosis link ) or should people still be forced to undock to repel enemies.


Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#383 - 2015-05-13 16:20:30 UTC
Lord LazyGhost wrote:

Log on o my pos is vunerable today for 2 hrs i need to go sit in my tower for the only 2 hrs i get to play incase some little troll in a ceptor desides today hes picking on my POS sounds like thrilling game play. even if its ever 3-4 days or so its still one days worth og game time doing nothing.



Or you could let the first timer go passed without defence, and be there for the second. Or third.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Atum' Ra
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#384 - 2015-05-13 16:22:53 UTC
Axloth Okiah wrote:
Some items and ships need to drop from citadels or why would we bother attacking them? Or why would anyone bother defending them if all they stand to lose is the value of only the citadel itself.



That's a good idea.
Some items can be destroyed some can be looted!
Why do someone need to have citadels? Because citadel is a part of "claim" structure.
Many isk will be destroyed - that's good for CCP. More plexes will be bought!
More adrenalin for defenders!

But one problem is here... What to do when you can't login for a week? because you are with family somewhere at the ocean.
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#385 - 2015-05-13 16:30:29 UTC
So what happens to the items in outposts and pos's when they go poof?

Moved to the closest npc station?
Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#386 - 2015-05-13 16:32:25 UTC
Atum' Ra wrote:
Axloth Okiah wrote:
Some items and ships need to drop from citadels or why would we bother attacking them? Or why would anyone bother defending them if all they stand to lose is the value of only the citadel itself.



That's a good idea.
Some items can be destroyed some can be looted!
Why do someone need to have citadels? Because citadel is a part of "claim" structure.
Many isk will be destroyed - that's good for CCP. More plexes will be bought!
More adrenalin for defenders!

But one problem is here... What to do when you can't login for a week? because you are with family somewhere at the ocean.


I feel these shouldn't be single player options. Also what happens when a POS gets attacked during the week you are with your family at the ocean? People are making these sound like right now we have no structures in game that can be lost in less then 2 weeks time. Dont put everything you own into this or be part of a group.
Atum' Ra
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#387 - 2015-05-13 16:36:10 UTC
Terranid Meester wrote:
So what happens to the items in outposts and pos's when they go poof?

Moved to the closest npc station?


As for now items will drops somewhere in the system. Coordinates will be knowk only for owner. No one else can't acsess them anyhow.
Kynric
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#388 - 2015-05-13 16:49:59 UTC
Perhaps instead of evaluating them relative to how they perform in wormhole evictions we should look at them in terms of what produces more ships moving in space. Ships moving in space is content every day while evictions are rare and generally not very fun events. With that standard it seems like there will be more ships in space with this plan. The asset protection feature will both make for ships shuffling about picking up goods and give a measure of perceived safety that might help grow the population in our neighborhood. For me at least it would also save me the 20 minutes at the end of my night when I log in the carrier and orca alts and scoop every last valuable/ship into them followed by a similar 20 minutes at the start of my night when they unload the goods. Skipping that would give me more time to fly in space which is content for all compared to the logged off alts that are content for nobody. The logoff trick was neccessary for both asset protection as if the tower were reinforced the CHA would be sealed and to assure that neccessary siege items are still accessible in the event of a suprise siege. The thought of losing those daily tasks is a happy one. I am pretty happy with the proposed change as it will likely result in more time in space for me and more other ships moving about as well.
stoicfaux
#389 - 2015-05-13 16:50:03 UTC
Atum' Ra wrote:

That's a good idea.
Some items can be destroyed some can be looted!
Why do someone need to have citadels? Because citadel is a part of "claim" structure.
Many isk will be destroyed - that's good for CCP. More plexes will be bought!
More adrenalin for defenders!

But one problem is here... What to do when you can't login for a week? because you are with family somewhere at the ocean.

Take them offline, scoop them, and transport the citadel, cargo, materials, ships, etc., to an NPC (or trusted allied) citadel/station. Just add that step to your things-to-do-to-get-ready for vacation checklist. Or join a larger corp/alliance that has enough people you trust to defend each other.

=/

I for one, am looking forward to our "High-Sec Alliance for Mutual High-Sec Citadel Defense for Unaffiliated One-Man/Small Corps Pax CareBearus" alliance overlords. But seriously, it would be amusing if all of high-sec carebears put their citadels under a single alliance to limit war-decs by citadel hunters. I nominate Chribba for the position of Most Supreme CareBear Overlord and Executor of the aforementioned alliance. Will anyone second to motion?

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
#390 - 2015-05-13 16:51:00 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Our current plan is to have a maximum limit of 8 high, 8 medium, 8 low, 8 service and 3 rig slot yes. That doesn't mean all of them will available at once (just like on ships) though.

So what your saying is, the absolute max number of things you would ever conceivably engage with one of these structures would be 16. As opposed to the current Large POS's ability to engage well over 40 if set up right. This sounds like a defense nerf.

Doesn't sound like you'll be able to jam all the logi while killing the dps ships with these new things. Please do not make it a 'one for one' set of modules/weapons as that severely limits their defensibility.
Lilliana Stelles
#391 - 2015-05-13 17:07:19 UTC
Will these things require fuel? Or only certain sizes?

Not a forum alt. 

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#392 - 2015-05-13 17:10:20 UTC
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
Will these things require fuel? Or only certain sizes?


Apparently the towers won't but the modules will require fuel. Details to be confirmed.
Atum' Ra
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#393 - 2015-05-13 17:11:55 UTC
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
Will these things require fuel? Or only certain sizes?


structure - no
fit - yes
Ocean Ormand
Bagel and Lox
#394 - 2015-05-13 17:12:37 UTC
Am I wrong that these changes just make the structure bash even worse?

Now, under the current system, if you want to bash a pos you have folk show up to bash the pos, they shoot the tower and the tower may shoot back. You could mitigate some of the incoming fire by incapping the guns and other defensive systems. The attackers are obligated to appear at least once and maybe a second time if the tower has been stronted.

After the changes, you will have to have folk show up for a mandatory 2 times and maybe a mandatory 3 times. The structure will get to shoot at the attackers, but the attackers cant shoot back; why? because its pointless to shoot the structure since it can only be taken by the entrosis system. Worse you cant mitigate the incoming damage because you cant shoot the defensive structures as they have all been turned into one big red x. So in the current system you have someone circle the button shooting a magic light at a big red x while the big red x shoots back at you.

Basically, it seems to me that CCP has taken the worst features of fw and old time exploration (circling a button while flashing a magic light at it, while you wait for a timer to count down) and grafted them onto pos'es. Hell if this mechanic was considered so bad in exploration that they had to introduce the minigame to fix it, why is it being reintroduced for structure grinds?

And to add insult to injury, when you kill a new pos, all of the players stuff is magically saved in magic bubble containers, which is drastically different from today, where if you use a pos all of your stuff is at risk. In fact, much of the meta of pos'es and the use of pos in wh in particular, is focused around the idea of bashing pos for loot, but under the new system, much of the reason to go about pos bashing is lost.

All in all, it strikes as if these changes are taking steps backward instead of giving everybody the POS 2.0 that they want. At the very least, CCP should leave the entrosis system to sov structures and let people at least have the satisfaction of shooting at the new giant red x's.
Metal Icarus
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#395 - 2015-05-13 17:12:59 UTC
Will there be faction and officer/empire variations of station fittings?
Ocean Ormand
Bagel and Lox
#396 - 2015-05-13 17:14:24 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Lord LazyGhost wrote:

Log on o my pos is vunerable today for 2 hrs i need to go sit in my tower for the only 2 hrs i get to play incase some little troll in a ceptor desides today hes picking on my POS sounds like thrilling game play. even if its ever 3-4 days or so its still one days worth og game time doing nothing.



Or you could let the first timer go passed without defence, and be there for the second. Or third.


So structure bashes have just been made worse since now attackers have to show up for a mandatory 2 or three times instead of the 1 or 2 times before?
The Tallman
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#397 - 2015-05-13 17:16:17 UTC
Here is something I think CCP needs to address for WH space.

When a corp lives in a C5 or C6 WH they HAVE to own and operate capital ships.
If CCP decides that a Large structure can not doc capitals and forces WH residents to use the XL structure only if they have capitals, the risk/cost vs reward for the C5 & C6 WH's may no longer pay off.

This may not be important to some but what is the point of having space in this game that is unusable?

Please keep in mind that living in a structure which in some parts of this game people are required to do, you have problems that should be resolved with this update.

Corp theft in shared ship and asset folders (solution better control over access or treat it like a HS station with hangers only it's owner can see)

Enough space for ships/modules that are required to live in remote areas of this game (Large structures WILL NEED TO DOC CAPS)!

Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
#398 - 2015-05-13 17:21:41 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Lord LazyGhost wrote:

Log on o my pos is vunerable today for 2 hrs i need to go sit in my tower for the only 2 hrs i get to play incase some little troll in a ceptor desides today hes picking on my POS sounds like thrilling game play. even if its ever 3-4 days or so its still one days worth og game time doing nothing.



Or you could let the first timer go passed without defence, and be there for the second. Or third.

That is such a terrible plan. Is that really THE REASONING behind this idea? What you are suggesting is like taking a ship into a fight, but deciding, since you have 3 'levels' of tank (shield armor and hull) that you really shouldn't be concerned about fighting back or turning on your tank until you are halfway through hull.

If i'm not mistaken, isn't there supposed to be progressively worse consequences for each RF timer?

Another analogy of your suggested defense method.

Some bloke is attacking me with a sword...eh no big deal i gots plenty of time to defend myself...oh he just chopped off one of my arms...meh i don't need to defend myself yet...oh there went my left leg...no worries, i'll be fine i still have lots of time...whoops, my other arm is gone now...well, i guess i can still defend myself with my right leg...hmm...thats gone now too...well, i guess i could bite him...oh whats that...he's stabbing me through the chest.

How is that ever a good strategy for solo/small corps?
Mr McGregor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#399 - 2015-05-13 17:21:44 UTC
Are there going to be multiple undock points? These things are so big that it makes sense...
Morn Hylund
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#400 - 2015-05-13 17:48:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Morn Hylund
I hope the Eve sandbox allows for all kinds of gameplay. So that those who do want to play Eve like a "carebear" in hi-sec are allowed to do so. And those who want a no rules kind of game can play in nul-sec.

I think you limit your options if you make all areas of space a "no rules" kind of setting like nul-sec. And in the end, you will just get a bunch of humungous alliances and game playing dictators making the rules for all the rest of the players. I don't think that will be conducive to a real sand box.

Space is a big place - there's room for everyone and all kinds of gameplay.