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Dev Blog: Shake my Citadel

First post First post
Author
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#341 - 2015-05-13 12:22:52 UTC
Nikolai Agnon wrote:
Sequester Risalo wrote:

In my opinion there is no way individual players with a functioning brain will use structures in low class wormholes. Individuals should not be forced to have an appointment with Eve every day, or every week or whatever timeframe you consider aedequate. I would like to still be able to go on vacation. I would like to keep my job which requires me to travel several times a year. This means that a lot of my stuff would be sitting vulnerable in space while I am not able to do anything to defend it.


You do realize that the planned structure overhaul is actually MORE friendly to 'not every day' gameplay than current POS's? They'll have multiple timers rather than the single strontium-based timer. Nowhere in EVE are you able to deploy structures for indefinite periods of time without checking up on them every so often.

With POS's right now, if people have been watching your habits in a wormhole and waiting for the right time to strike (say, when you go to bed), you'd wake up to a reinforced tower, incapacitated guns, and access to almost nothing other than your ship maintenance array. You'd then be aware that you have x number of hours until part 2 happens, which could mean as soon as six hours from when you next logged on, depending on your habits (if you only log on after work, for instance, and put 36 hours of stront, making you choose: do you want your pos and alarm clock to defend it, or get a good night's sleep?).

With the new structure mechanics, you would only be vulnerable during your playtime, and you'd have MULTIPLE timers with which you can respond to the assault. Will a coordinated eviction attempt put you at great risk? Always. Unless the enemy can respond to your vulnerability window reliably, though, you're actually safer this way.


What you are missing is that the current system requires a reasonably large force to 1) tank DPS. 2) apply DPS.
Under the new system it requires 1) A ship with an Entosis link

That's it.

So yes, while you may have multiple reinforcement timers/periods, the attacks do not have to come from a single party. How many times have POCO timers been acted on in wormholes just because someone flying through sees the timer will go off in an hour? Your structure vulnerability window plus the minimal requirement to attack it will near guarantee that it is attacked very frequently if you are not there during each and every window to defend it with an active player in each and every structure in your system. And those attacks won't come from the same party each time, it will frequently be attacks of lolopportunity primarily because there is also no other reason to do it because any assets present during the attack are safely put into containers.





x psy
Starfleet Engineers
#342 - 2015-05-13 12:31:00 UTC
Citadel defense systems sounds like a pandora box ready to be opened.
I would be happier if you guys knew what to do wtih the contents of the Citadel when they are destroyed for example.
A cool idea would be to allow the Citadel to have emergencies pods that would scatter its contents around the system inside a cloaking field.

Yroc Jannseen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#343 - 2015-05-13 12:39:34 UTC
Thinking about the original function you were working around "office and market hubs", or similar to Gallente Outposts now, how much thought has been put into the actual purpose of offices and potential changes there?

With the "death cloning" change, one purpose for offices is now gone. The main advantage now is a corp hangar. Some corps really benefit from this, others don't.

One area where it's a huge benefit is sharing blueprints among multiple industry characters. The contradiction is, assuming the Citadel office bonus will be number of offices like Gallente Outposts now, it can often be difficult to find enough office space in an industrial bonused station.
Captain Zorg
Capitoline Research and Development
#344 - 2015-05-13 12:40:41 UTC
"Hey, we are going out tonight drinking beer and having sexy time with the ladies. Are you coming?"

"Sorry, I'd love to but I've got to stay in and make sure my Citadel doesn't get taken down... Again."

Anthar Thebess
#345 - 2015-05-13 12:52:31 UTC
x psy wrote:
Citadel defense systems sounds like a pandora box ready to be opened.
I would be happier if you guys knew what to do wtih the contents of the Citadel when they are destroyed for example.
A cool idea would be to allow the Citadel to have emergencies pods that would scatter its contents around the system inside a cloaking field.



Have you asked yourself , how much "fun" you will have picking this up and moving to your new staging / living point?
Wherever you live , you accumulate tons of stuff , to much to move.
When i look at my assets i need to scroll for quite long time just to get list of stations where i have something.

Just before jump changes hit i moved 15 full freighters of stuff to NPC stations , and burned 1mil of fuel on a carrier just to move fitted ships.

Ask yourself what will you , or any one else do if after some holidays , first thing you need to do is to gather 10 freighters of stuff because people attacking you did not have holidays in this period.

You cannot call some place home without ability to keep most of stuff in this place.
Castelo Selva
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#346 - 2015-05-13 12:57:40 UTC
I did not read every post until now, but I read all Dev post. Looks like to me that several people are in doubt between the choose of an Outpost or the new Citadel.

Would be possible list the differences from one to another? Like price, numbers per systems, customizations, etc. I think this will enlighten people, and stop question like “why should I move from the safety of an Outpost to a destructible Citadel?”
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#347 - 2015-05-13 13:12:11 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
x psy wrote:
Citadel defense systems sounds like a pandora box ready to be opened.
I would be happier if you guys knew what to do wtih the contents of the Citadel when they are destroyed for example.
A cool idea would be to allow the Citadel to have emergencies pods that would scatter its contents around the system inside a cloaking field.



Have you asked yourself , how much "fun" you will have picking this up and moving to your new staging / living point?
Wherever you live , you accumulate tons of stuff , to much to move.
When i look at my assets i need to scroll for quite long time just to get list of stations where i have something.

Just before jump changes hit i moved 15 full freighters of stuff to NPC stations , and burned 1mil of fuel on a carrier just to move fitted ships.

Ask yourself what will you , or any one else do if after some holidays , first thing you need to do is to gather 10 freighters of stuff because people attacking you did not have holidays in this period.

You cannot call some place home without ability to keep most of stuff in this place.

I think if you start from 'Citadel can be destroyed' you won't have lots of stuff there. So there will be no such problem anyway.

However if you look at sov-0.0 space you will see that since Outposts were implemented this 'wild, dark and unsettled' space became filled by these indestructible beasts. Just for past month players have built and installed 5 new outposts. Check dotlan for details. Stuff MUST BE destructible else you will have no free space in the game after some time.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Dradis Aulmais
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#348 - 2015-05-13 13:15:15 UTC
If we set our citidel to public letting outsiders in can we limit them based on standing like we can do now with stations? Can we Limite ship classes that can dock? Such as letting in Sub Caps but no Cap ships with the XL

Dradis Aulmais, Federal Attorney Number 54896

Free The Scope Three

Oxide Ammar
#349 - 2015-05-13 13:32:46 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
DaReaper wrote:
Sorry if this has been asked, been running round at work so can;t keep up with thread.

Are these going to be able to do reactions? or are they essentially just the pos equivalent storage hub?


Ultimately, it will depend on which kind of Service Module you fit on those structures. Want to do reactions? Fit the reactor module. May not be the best use of a Citadel though, since structures will have bonuses to specific fields, like ships, and Citadels will be bonuses towards defense, office and markets.


Do Citadels differ in shape based on the current fitted modules ? I mean not big graphical change but I mean if I warp to Citadel from the look of it I can know what services can do from its look ?

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.

H3llHound
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#350 - 2015-05-13 13:40:36 UTC
What if M sizes dont let capitals dock but you can access your personal ship Hangar(for transferring subcaps into the station) from space and allow to refit caps or all ships from space. That way caps can't be docked but still used. Also I love the ideas you presented in the devblog

L should let normal caps dock and XL the supers.
Rthulhu Voynich
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#351 - 2015-05-13 13:41:28 UTC
One rule for the Entosis Link is: „No remote rep”
How is it possible to reinforce a structure with guns that will shoot enemy ships? Every ship is killed before the warm-up cycle is complete.(?)
Anthar Thebess
#352 - 2015-05-13 13:49:28 UTC
March rabbit wrote:

I think if you start from 'Citadel can be destroyed' you won't have lots of stuff there. So there will be no such problem anyway.

However if you look at sov-0.0 space you will see that since Outposts were implemented this 'wild, dark and unsettled' space became filled by these indestructible beasts. Just for past month players have built and installed 5 new outposts. Check dotlan for details. Stuff MUST BE destructible else you will have no free space in the game after some time.


I totally agree about this.
Thats why i suggested more than once Roll that only thing that is indestructible anywhere are NPC made stations.
We are talking about 1 or 2 stations per region.

You cannot also deny that if you cannot live somewhere without having tons of stuff there.
This is a game, when you know that you need to move it - you will do every thing possible to do it, but again this is a game.
Sometimes you cannot do it because RL is more important.
Current situation leaves you with trapped assets , new situation will leave you with tons of stuff you need to move.
Now will you spend a month moving this stuff using cloaky transports or just find another game where you can have fun for this and next months - this is the real question.
Marcus Tedric
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#353 - 2015-05-13 13:51:00 UTC
Rthulhu Voynich wrote:
One rule for the Entosis Link is: „No remote rep”
How is it possible to reinforce a structure with guns that will shoot enemy ships? Every ship is killed before the warm-up cycle is complete.(?)


And this is probably why CCP would rather have the structure defences only work when there is a defending 'gunner' to man them.

'Capture the Flag' is a fine game mechanic that may well work - but only if both 'teams' are actually playing - NOT, however, if the 'defender' is: at work; on holiday; 'playing' RL; being a parent; has their PC break and not have a handy spare; etc; etc.

It would seem that the future desires of players to have their own semi-permanent 'big' structures will only be possible if they actually join/ally with a significant number of other players that can commit to having someone always available.

Plenty of things in EVE for solo and small group play - but perhaps not Sov-owning; or L & X-L permanent structures. I could, potentially, understand this.

Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium

Anthar Thebess
#354 - 2015-05-13 13:51:50 UTC
Rthulhu Voynich wrote:
One rule for the Entosis Link is: „No remote rep”
How is it possible to reinforce a structure with guns that will shoot enemy ships? Every ship is killed before the warm-up cycle is complete.(?)

This way.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5741863#post5741863
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#355 - 2015-05-13 14:13:31 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:

You cannot also deny that if you cannot live somewhere without having tons of stuff there.

people 'live' in WHs already having totally destructible POSes.
Other people 'live' in FW areas where they can lose access to the station when enemy captured the system.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#356 - 2015-05-13 14:14:18 UTC
H3llHound wrote:
What if M sizes dont let capitals dock but you can access your personal ship Hangar(for transferring subcaps into the station) from space and allow to refit caps or all ships from space. That way caps can't be docked but still used. Also I love the ideas you presented in the devblog

L should let normal caps dock and XL the supers.


Yes our current thinking is that you can access personal storage from the structure by being within docking range, same as POS.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones

Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#357 - 2015-05-13 14:20:44 UTC
Rthulhu Voynich wrote:
One rule for the Entosis Link is: „No remote rep”
How is it possible to reinforce a structure with guns that will shoot enemy ships? Every ship is killed before the warm-up cycle is complete.(?)


Shoot Ze Guns. I would hope CCP allows guns on stations to be incapped the same way as gun on POS are currently. That way you can incap and then entosis.
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#358 - 2015-05-13 14:23:06 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
H3llHound wrote:
What if M sizes dont let capitals dock but you can access your personal ship Hangar(for transferring subcaps into the station) from space and allow to refit caps or all ships from space. That way caps can't be docked but still used. Also I love the ideas you presented in the devblog

L should let normal caps dock and XL the supers.


Yes our current thinking is that you can access personal storage from the structure by being within docking range, same as POS.


I'm not sure if this was answered before, but will these Citadels have, at a minimum, storage like current NPC stations for storage of personal items, ships, etc. without the cruft of POS permissions that exist today? Or will we get some kind of modified POS/SMA/CHA/PHA type setup?
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#359 - 2015-05-13 14:24:36 UTC
Should we expect outpost upgrade reimbursements to be doled out before these hit. If not, would it be close so that outpost funds could be then spent on the new structures?

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#360 - 2015-05-13 14:29:49 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
H3llHound wrote:
What if M sizes dont let capitals dock but you can access your personal ship Hangar(for transferring subcaps into the station) from space and allow to refit caps or all ships from space. That way caps can't be docked but still used. Also I love the ideas you presented in the devblog

L should let normal caps dock and XL the supers.


Yes our current thinking is that you can access personal storage from the structure by being within docking range, same as POS.


I'm not sure if this was answered before, but will these Citadels have, at a minimum, storage like current NPC stations for storage of personal items, ships, etc. without the cruft of POS permissions that exist today? Or will we get some kind of modified POS/SMA/CHA/PHA type setup?


Yes all these structures will get personal hangars.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones