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Dev Blog: Shake my Citadel

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CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#361 - 2015-05-13 14:30:34 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Should we expect outpost upgrade reimbursements to be doled out before these hit. If not, would it be close so that outpost funds could be then spent on the new structures?


Really good question, and we would love feedback on exactly how would be best to do this.

Maybe uninstalling upgrades and reprocessing them?

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones
Solecist Project
#362 - 2015-05-13 14:35:45 UTC
Excuse me, please.

Although this seems to be offtopic,
it is actually very connected and relevant.

Please note the wording.
It's a simple Yes/No question,
but of course do I not mind a more verbose answer.

With these new structures hitting highsec ...
... combined with the Drifter storyline ...
... and empirial changes in NullSec ...
... is it reasonable to assume that ...
... you will revamp wardecs, or remove them all together for something different?

Not asking when, or how.
Doesn't matter.

A simple Yes or No is absolutely sufficient.


Thanks! :D

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Laina Okaski
My Little Pony Club
#363 - 2015-05-13 14:43:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Laina Okaski
CCP Nullarbor wrote:


Maybe uninstalling upgrades and reprocessing them?


Getting 55% back is kind of a bad way to reimburse the massive amount of isk and time spent to upgrade an outpost. If reprocessing is the way they will be refunded you should be able to get 100% back.
Kameloso
Starstuff Industrial
#364 - 2015-05-13 14:45:34 UTC
Laina Okaski wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:


Maybe uninstalling upgrades and reprocessing them?


Getting 55% back is kind of a bad way to reimburse the massive amount of isk and time spent to upgrade an outpost.


Unless CCP provides 100% reprocess ;) technically, possible, as they would do that database-side anyway.
stoicfaux
#365 - 2015-05-13 14:56:16 UTC
I have concerns about the viability of medium citadels in high-sec for "individual or small groups of players."

If medium citadels are worth more than the price of a war-dec, and if is practical for attackers to not incur significant losses/expenses (i.e. citadel guns don't work unless a defender is online, or if the NPC mercs are easily defeated or tanked) then it could be profitable to war-dec medium citadels owned by one-man or small corps, which would potentially make medium citadels of dubious value to one-man/small corps.

Meaning, if organizations can make a steady income/profit/business out of war-dec'ing medium citadels owned by one-man/small corps, then medium citadels won't be very useful for the target audience.


Furthermore, if it is profitable to war-dec medium citadels owned by one-man/small corps, then there are a several implied bounds on the price of a medium citadel:
* the price of an empty medium citadel is too high if (captured citadel sell price > war-dec price)
* the price of a destroyed medium citadel is too high if (salvage price > war-dec price)
* the price of a ransomed medium citadel is too high if (citadel price > ransom price > war-dec price)
* the amount of stuff you can "safely" put in a medium citadel is too low. (dropped loot > war-dec price) i.e. we're back to the "how much isk value of stuff can you put in a freighter before it becomes worthwhile to gank" equation.
* the number of citadels a one-man/small corp can own will be limited by price as well, i.e. (captured/destroying/looting X citadels during one war-dec > price of war-dec.)


Probably the only thing saving the medium citadel for one-man/small corps from becoming a business venture for attackers is being able to tear down a citadel during the 24 hour war-dec grace period, but even that incurs a two hour vulnerability window. But this isn't exactly a fun mechanic for either party.


disclaimer: just thinking aloud, criticism won't hurt my feeling.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Daerrol
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#366 - 2015-05-13 14:56:59 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:

We are leaning towards just showing everything on the system overlay / onboard scanner with the ability to warp to them, or at the very least showing you how many structures of each size exist in system. They will show on the overview if you have access to them.

We aware of the concern of invaders setting up a beach head, and are discussing with the CSM various options for changing anchoring behavior in wormholes to help with this.


I hope I'm clear that free-anchored structures require 100% overview, not overview if you have access. If a player cannot jump into a system and find the POS through dscan alone, then you are destroying a huge portion of wormhole space activity (covert operations). Anything other than warpable overview beacons for free anchored structures will require a scout to launch probes to survey the system and that will immediately alert anyone in the system to their presence.


Take a deep breathe. Remove tinfoil hat and repeat: CCP is not activily destroying wormholes. These structures appear as anomalies so yes, they can be easily D-scanned.
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#367 - 2015-05-13 15:02:01 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Redbull Spai wrote:
Is there any benefit whatsoever from forcing to players to base their ships in one point, transport their mined ore to another to refine, then transport it to a third to build? Just looks like a way to punish industrialists that don't have a jump freighter.


We are going to allow you to fit manufacturing lines to citadels and refining to manufacturing structures etc. The base hull however will have bonuses to certain modules, so for industrialist who want to min / max a big operation then yes this is what they will be best to do.

Are there going to be separate structures bonused to manufacturing, or are citadels taking over both the role of a manufacturing outpost and an industry pos?
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#368 - 2015-05-13 15:09:56 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Should we expect outpost upgrade reimbursements to be doled out before these hit. If not, would it be close so that outpost funds could be then spent on the new structures?


Really good question, and we would love feedback on exactly how would be best to do this.

Maybe uninstalling upgrades and reprocessing them?

Upgrades can't be reprocessed. They're bought from NPCs for (900m/1.8b/3.6b) and placed into foundations bought from npcs (3.6b/7.2b/14.4b) along with some filling stuff (all worthless, except the construction blocs and minerals, just a pain in the ass). You'd basically need to refund the base cost, plus the fillings. It would make the most sense to refund the base cost in isk, but refunding it (plus the outpost itself, which can be built) in P4s would help alleviate the massive supply crunch that will happen when everyone and their dog needs a few hundred billion isk in p4s for their replacement pos/outposts.
Marcus Tedric
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#369 - 2015-05-13 15:12:08 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:
.............
Are there going to be separate structures bonused to manufacturing, or are citadels taking over both the role of a manufacturing outpost and an industry pos?


I think I'm right in saying that the 'Citadel' range of structures is just the first in a whole slew of structure ranges - the Citadel just happens to be the one optimised for Offices & Market and, most importantly, defence.

From what's been intimated, however, we may also get access to many of the proposed 'Structure Modules' & 'Structure Optimising Rigs' that will enable Manufacture, Refining, Research, et al. However, future structures will be optimised in other ways.

If right, then it could be suggested that the 'Citadel' is a 'replacement' for the Caldari range of POS and Outposts.

Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium
Lord LazyGhost
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#370 - 2015-05-13 15:17:32 UTC
So if iam reading this right all my items i have in it if its destoryed are safe?

Then what is the point in attacking one risking ships for no loot other then a KM ?

sorry i just cant see the advantage atm.

Also not having guns automatic erm wtf..... for the guys that can only play for a few hours a day .

Log on o my pos is vunerable today for 2 hrs i need to go sit in my tower for the only 2 hrs i get to play incase some little troll in a ceptor desides today hes picking on my POS sounds like thrilling game play. even if its ever 3-4 days or so its still one days worth og game time doing nothing.

I for one will make my own little alt army of troll ceptor pilots for this thing. find small corps with muli Poses and hit them all at the same time with alts their small corp cant be everywhere at one time so yer.... sounds fun for them.

Hope you guys are going to create a new modual XXXXXL tear collector array becasue you are going to need it.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#371 - 2015-05-13 15:20:19 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Should we expect outpost upgrade reimbursements to be doled out before these hit. If not, would it be close so that outpost funds could be then spent on the new structures?


Really good question, and we would love feedback on exactly how would be best to do this.

Maybe uninstalling upgrades and reprocessing them?


There are basically going to be two reimbursements. One, ISK, for the station itself, the other P4s/PI. If you don't cash out the P4s you are going to spike the market to hell all at once. Any supply glut will be gobbled up by spec anyway.

The ISK portion should just go to the exec master wallets of each alliance. Or a corp wallet of the owning corp. P4s into the hanger of the station itself.

The only danger here is glutting PI for a short period but I don't consider that a risk as ISK will flood in to gobble anyway. Especially since everyone has to buy these up.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#372 - 2015-05-13 15:20:26 UTC
CCP Logibro wrote:
It's time for some more Structure talk with Team Game of Drones. This time, they're talking about the Citadel class structures, how they will work, and the ways in which it will be able to reach out and say "Hi!" to someone before blowing them up. If this catches your interest, then you should read the blog from the keyboard of CCP Ytterbium.


I have this weird boner right now
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#373 - 2015-05-13 15:21:54 UTC
Lord LazyGhost wrote:
So if iam reading this right all my items i have in it if its destoryed are safe?

Then what is the point in attacking one risking ships for no loot other then a KM ?

sorry i just cant see the advantage atm.

Also not having guns automatic erm wtf..... for the guys that can only play for a few hours a day .

Log on o my pos is vunerable today for 2 hrs i need to go sit in my tower for the only 2 hrs i get to play incase some little troll in a ceptor desides today hes picking on my POS sounds like thrilling game play. even if its ever 3-4 days or so its still one days worth og game time doing nothing.

I for one will make my own little alt army of troll ceptor pilots for this thing. find small corps with muli Poses and hit them all at the same time with alts their small corp cant be everywhere at one time so yer.... sounds fun for them.

Hope you guys are going to create a new modual XXXXXL tear collector array becasue you are going to need it.


You won't be required to defend these everyday like sov, and the structure will drop fittings, fuel maybe in progress industry jobs etc.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#374 - 2015-05-13 15:23:48 UTC
Marcus Tedric wrote:
EvilweaselSA wrote:
.............
Are there going to be separate structures bonused to manufacturing, or are citadels taking over both the role of a manufacturing outpost and an industry pos?


I think I'm right in saying that the 'Citadel' range of structures is just the first in a whole slew of structure ranges - the Citadel just happens to be the one optimised for Offices & Market and, most importantly, defence.

That's what I thought before the discussion of reactions on these, so that's why I ask: it is not clear to me anymore what roles this fills and what other structures there will be, and if there's overlap what sort of tradeoffs are being considered.
Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#375 - 2015-05-13 15:33:40 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Lyron-Baktos wrote:
When do we get some news on these new structures and how or if they will interact in wormhole space?


We want most of those structures to be available in W-space, but with some special restrictions if need be.


Dont screw up J-Space. We dont need that entosis crap in wormholes.
Albert Spear
Non scholae sed vitae
#376 - 2015-05-13 15:35:52 UTC
As a high sec industrial player and a member of a small corporation. I think I am going to sit on the side lines and wait to see what actually happens with the mechanics.

I am very concerned that I will end up investing my whole net-worth in a structure and find that I am war-dec'ed in a week and it is gone.

Until I see how the structures are used and the mechanics the ganker corps come up with to take it away from me, I am not interested in investing in a structure. If this means un-subscribing for until this sorts itself out, then that is what I may have to do. Sad

If this sounds "care bear" - you are right, I have only a couple of hours a week to play, so building isk takes time.

I suspect that if the medium is too easy to gank, or too expensive - then this will be yet another barrier to new players staying subscribed. Sad

I understand the concerns for Nul, Low and WH space.

Right now I am going to take a "wait and see" attitude and continue to do what I do, when I have the time. Shocked

I hope this goes well, I think it offers a lot of future play for many people. Big smile
Jherik
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#377 - 2015-05-13 15:37:12 UTC
WRT flipping or destroying the structures. i think it would be an interesting mechanic if towards the end of the first timer the attackers were presented with a choice. They may then either continue using the entosis link and go for a straight flip of the structure, or at that point break out the big toys, and start chewing through HP and go for the big explosion, KM and all that. The choice of which would then lock the attacking side in for the 2nd and 3rd timer.

This would allow dreads to retain some of thier intended purpose and allow for interesting gameplay around capital escalations and maybe end up with another B-r in which the bloody station blows up in the end.
Lord LazyGhost
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#378 - 2015-05-13 15:42:02 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Lord LazyGhost wrote:
So if iam reading this right all my items i have in it if its destoryed are safe?

Then what is the point in attacking one risking ships for no loot other then a KM ?

sorry i just cant see the advantage atm.

Also not having guns automatic erm wtf..... for the guys that can only play for a few hours a day .

Log on o my pos is vunerable today for 2 hrs i need to go sit in my tower for the only 2 hrs i get to play incase some little troll in a ceptor desides today hes picking on my POS sounds like thrilling game play. even if its ever 3-4 days or so its still one days worth og game time doing nothing.

I for one will make my own little alt army of troll ceptor pilots for this thing. find small corps with muli Poses and hit them all at the same time with alts their small corp cant be everywhere at one time so yer.... sounds fun for them.

Hope you guys are going to create a new modual XXXXXL tear collector array becasue you are going to need it.


You won't be required to defend these everyday like sov, and the structure will drop fittings, fuel maybe in progress industry jobs etc.


Thank you very much for your quick reply.

thats good to know that their will be loot. Let the troll ceptors fly freely :)
Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#379 - 2015-05-13 15:42:55 UTC
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Lyron-Baktos wrote:
When do we get some news on these new structures and how or if they will interact in wormhole space?


We want most of those structures to be available in W-space, but with some special restrictions if need be.


Dont screw up J-Space. We dont need that entosis crap in wormholes.


So by your same thought process wormholers shoudnt be able to entosis null members. Yeah you cant have it both ways.
Axloth Okiah
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#380 - 2015-05-13 15:49:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Axloth Okiah
Some items and ships need to drop from citadels or why would we bother attacking them? Or why would anyone bother defending them if all they stand to lose is the value of only the citadel itself.

Wormholers currently have 100s of bilions worth of ships in their POSes and its one of the things that drive the massive fights we can witness every now and then - attackers want to destroy/loot them, defendes want to keep them. Compared to that, cost of the citadel itself will be peanuts and noone will bother fighting over it.

Please consider some drop mechanic, or maybe salvaging of the loot over time. IE the citadel wrecks slowly decay over time and shed loot (ships, modules, whatever) as salvage for anyone who shows up to get it. This could even spark some activity around old wrecks of mighty and rich citadels, as scavengers would come in search of riches.

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